106 thoughts on “The real Christmas story is about God’s righteousness to save man”

1. Amen Don, God has given us the Best gift of all, His only Son.

2. Most excellent and informative Christmas story. A true message of hope and love of the genuine bride for her adoring husband, and the love of the brothers and sisters in Christ.

   To Don and all the others: Merry Christmas, peace of mind, strength to endure, and wisdom to understand the timely scriptural instructions to unfold. Amen.

3. been posting the first chapter of Luke on Facebook-where even Merry Christmas is controversial! is there a way to link or share this article?

4. ok- got it. just a taddddd slow today!

5. Don,

   What you have written holds both joy and sorrow.

   To those who see the glory of God in the heavens and have heard the everlasting gospel in creation, the Christmas story, as you have so eloquently told it, is sheer unadulterated joy;
   But as we look at the age in which we live and those (our neighbours) blinded by self-justification and satanic propaganda it brings heaviness to the heart.

   My prayer for all who have the joy in knowing Christ; May your joy be a shining light to those in darkness for this season and until He calls us home.

6. Abba, we who are Yours thank You for Jesus, for caring for us, for drawing us to Yourself and redeeming us from death and eternal separation from You, and then tirelessly working in us to remake us into the character of Christ. You have adopted us into Your royal family, we who were once enemies of You! Thank You for this amazing blessing! Thank You for calling us Your Beloved! If You are for us, then who could be against us? And what gift can we give to You, the creator and owner of everything? All we can give You is our love, and we love You, in great part, by loving others in You. Please help us to do this! We are family; we are loved! We praise You Lord: Father, Jesus and Spirit!

   Merry Christmas Don and Everyone!

7. I truly agree with Brian- and Don has laid out the facts for all to comprehend- or reject at their peril. Those who wait on the Lord know this world is not our home… The only security is in being a heir of Jesus Christ. 🙂
   May all of you have a blessed Christmas!

8. Praise God that I have stumbled across this website. I am so excited that I have found true Christian Believers sharing the authenticity of a very real and living God, Amen?. I can honestly say that much of what is being taught throughout, within this generation, clearly falls under ‘false doctrine’. In many cases, todays leadership, is choosing to use, the name of Jesus, {The Messiah, Yeshua}, as a business, while they are loosely perverting the truth, and corrupting the Written Word of God; as it aids in bringing the multiples of many, to living a life where sin still prevails. Leaders, teaching on a God they know nothing about. They no more use Biblical disciplines or corrections, reproofing, let alone, rebuking, to say the least, as we all can agree, is so desperately needed of today. You know, the ‘Firm Hand of Our Lord and Savior’ upon our lives? As only He alone can do best. But what saddens me, even more, is that, the counting of wolves is rapidly rising, and the anointing is no where to be found. Certainly, bearing the appearance of Godliness but: “denying the power thereof”. He must have full control, to bringing all things into order by His Spirit, yet, man continues to conduct as he sees fit, pushing aside any and all room for, Christ, His Holy Spirit conviction, which can keep us in line. Sin has lost it’s sting for many, and there is no longer any talk or room for repentance, so it seems. I will say this, that it is my Father who keeps me yearning to pray without ceasing for the Brethren, that we will, turn from our wicked ways, humble ourselves and pray, pleading for a miraculous turnaround, the days when we will seek His face and not lean on man’s. For years, I have studied and watched and prayed, and have counseled, much of the general Christian population who wants only but to settle, on a false (empty and deceptive) feeding, like these (New Agers, preterists, globalists, and religionists of every kind, whatever names they may represent, those who believe to being recognized as ‘the flock’, are receiving what the Bible calls “the tickling of the ears”. I am so sad to report that committees of various kinds behind many of these so-called churches, are after a seeker friendly, easy believe-ism, and/or Love is all you need Doctrines, based on Universalism and ‘One World Church’ views. Yes, we certainly must discern for the truth and do know them by their fruits. Yet, in these so-called places of ‘congregation’, they are hearing only what is otherwise regulated from another order, like the so-called organized businessmen (and women) with titles, given of and by men. Organization driven. The good news is, that I had the refreshing privilege of reading several of your teachings and I must say, what I’ve read thus far has lined up with His Word, Praise God. My Kind of fruit. I will pray for revelation to staying connected, I am otherwise pretty tied up these days. But, meanwhile, May Our Lord and Savior richly Bless your ministry, with an abundance only by which He alone can provide. That your ministry rests under an open Heaven, according to all that is His , He shall supply all of your needs, Amen?.
   Having a very Blessed and Joyous Christmas, I am praying that all the Saints, including those who are partners with this ministry, receive a hedge of His protection that the enemy cannot penetrate. That satan will have no power, permission or authority to come against Yeshua;s own, His Holy people, the truly elect. Please Father, let that be us today. Bless us oh Lord and keep us, as we worship you and give you thanks for your Great Glory. Merry Christmas my Brothers and Sisters, as we await His next move, as the Coming King. Amen!!

9. Don ,
   No comments only any of your recent articles as you seem to be right on regarding the true state of affairs. MERRY CHRISTMAS to you and the other brethren who comment here. BLESSINGS!!!

10. Merry Christmas to you Don Koeing, and you wife, and all your dogs!

    I thank God for the free gift of salvation that has been provided for all
    of humanity through the work of Jesus Christ on the cross.

    And Merry Christmas to all my fellow believers.

11. Happy Birthday Jesus!!

    I sit here in Kabul. I am filled with great joy after reading this article as it speaks the truth and real meaning of Christmas.

    Thank you Don,

    And Thank You Lord GOD for your Son, Jesus.

    Amen.

12. Don wrote: >>God likewise foreknew that man with free will would be tempted by the Devil and chose evil.<<

    This is an incorrect belief. God did not make man to sin, nor did He look into the future of Adam and Eve to see whether or not they would sin against His commandment. In all love, God put trust in them, but man left God and reached out for the forbidden fruit. Had they not sinned, this planet would be a paradise — just as God always intended.

    Nowadays, man is still reaching out for the forbidden fruit, even so called Christians. In the beginning, the penalty for sin was death, and that penalty is still enforce. Jesus' blood will not be there to atone for our souls if we willfully reach out for forbidden fruit (sin). It's time to press in toward holiness and righteousness.

    Ephesians 4:24 – And that ye put on the new man, which after God is? created in righteousness and true holiness.

    1 John 3:7-8 – Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

    It's time to allow Jesus to destroy the works of the devil in our lives so that we may be found in His holiness and righteousness, walking pure and clean in His grace. This is the born again experience that Jesus spoke of.

13. Stephen,

    I did not say that God made man sin. God does not need to look into the future, God knows everything and already knows what will happen in His creation. The scripture is clear that God provided the way of redemption before the foundations of the earth so obviously God knew that man would sin.

    Also you are preaching limited atonement and believe that man can lose his salvation if He sins that is a lie of the Devil.

    Selectively choosing scripture without understanding what is being said is of no value.

    You are quite wrong about many things.

14. If God created Satan full-knowing ahead of time that Satan would turn evil then isn’t God really the father of evil and all lies??

15. David?

    Time is something God created, it is something of a vehicle upon which the rest of His creation travels. God has given His sentient creatures the ability to make their own choices.

    So, God, outside of time, can view what happens in the context of time, knowing the start, the finish and everything in between. Think of all of creation, or at least the “time aspect” of it like a sheet of paper. Our lives are like marks on the paper, starting end ending, some long some short, always moving from the same direction towards the opposite direction. God can “look” at this paper and see all the marks, BUT we have been given the ability to change the character of the marks, and even choose to make our or other’s marks shorter than they might otherwise be. God is not directly responsible for the marks, we are by our choices. None of us began our own marks, but we grow more and more responsible to the way the mark looks as we mature…

    So, God can observe ALL of what happens at once, just as we can view an entire picture on a piece of paper all at once. What trips so many people up is that they assume that in order to observe everything, one must be (directly) responsible for everything…

    By giving angels and humans the ability to make their own choices, God made it possible for people to choose to rebel, to choose to be selfish, to choose to love themselves above God and others. Why would God do this??? At least one important reason He did this because love is meaningless unless it can be freely given or withheld. Without free will we would be robots who could not possibly have sinned, but who also could not possibly have loved. Free will has terrible potential. Selfish exercise of freedom of choice has had devastating consequences. BUT God felt that the benefits of love are worth the risks.

    Also, I’m sure there are aspects of all this that we simply cannot understand at this point in our existence. As hard as it can be for many people, we have to accept that we are not going to understand all of everything right now.

    So to answer your point David, God could only be considered the “father of evil and all lies” in the limited sense that He made a universe were it was possible for evil and lies to exist: that is, He is indirectly responsible, but it’s God’s character that He would not be directly responsible. Put another way, if as a parent, our child chooses to do something terrible, are we then responsible for what they did because we caused them to be born? Only in an indirect sense.

    Does this help?

16. To David Henley,

    If God did not allow evil as a choice to man and we lived in an Eden type utopia where man did not know sin, then perhaps, the very reason for God created, free willed man, would be voided.

    I see God (of all creation) as one who wants to know what ‘free will’ beings will and won’t choose him.

    I know there are whiners who cry foul and don’t like God’s plan and the way God does business…those types of people are usually the one’s that adopt an unholy religion and/or become shallow thinking atheists.

17. Shallow thinking atheist? Wow. I just asked a question. Here’s another one: would you love God if there was no fear of the next life? I can’t honestly say that I would. Can’t honestly say I wouldn’t either. I become wrapped up as so many people do in the day-to-day business of life: working, shopping for groceries, spending time with friends, etc.

    Yes, I should (and am) thankful to God my life is better than others. But how does someone who has nothing give thanks? There are probably people who are alone, homeless, and on the verge of death so why should they thank God except for not spending eternity in Hell?

    And by the way, I trust in Jesus Christ as my savior. But I refuse to lie and say I have no doubts, or never get arrogant or angry, or unloving. I just have questions that I can’t find answers for from anyone.

    Enjoy the rest of 2011.

18. To David Henley, your honest questions and doubts are good things because we are told to grow in grace and the knowledge of Christ. He will be found when we look for Him with all our hearts. And the word of God has the answers you are looking for. Romans 1 says that man is without excuse. I often picture myself looking down on our blue/green planet that is teeming with myriads of different life forms and contrasting that with the surrounding galaxy that is void, or empty. How can the clay tell the potter anything? Yet, in this fallen evil world, I know and feel love, I enjoy music, and I see beauty. It leads me to worship. God will be faithful to reveal more of Himself to you, he is not offended by your doubts. Happy New Year in Jesus, our redeemer from the curse.

19. To David Henley,

    I was not directly inferring that you are a ‘shallow thinking atheist’. I was talking about those who don’t like God’s program and the path I have personally seen those follow…or defend with atheistic logic…or opposition to God.

    I don’t know about anyone else…but my initial quests for God stemmed from wanting to know “the truth”. My attitude was, “Lord, if you are real, I will follow you, if you are not real, I’m not going to follow some ludicrous religious nonsense”.

    God promises that he will reveal himself to us if we ask him in prayer, and he did and still does.

    And, in response to your comment, I have been alone and homeless…where death seemed kinder than life.

20. David Henley,

    I think Brett answered your question very well and we cannot fully know or judge God’s love through our own limited knowledge.

    One possibility is that the 7000 years where man lives in a fallen world is a demonstration to the angels that Human beings can trust in God for there salvation even in a fallen creation when times are evil.

    Satan and his angels obviously lived in perfection but they distrusted God. Humans do not live in perfection, yet some will choice to trust God and see His righteousness through His Son. Compared to eternity this period of time when the Sons of God are revealed to creation is nothing.

    From my experience, and from scriptures, and what I hear from missionaries it is easier to get people who have nothing to believe in a righteous God to save them, than it is to reach people who need nothing.

    Even Jesus suffered to set us free and He clearly said all those that follow Him would also suffer and find tribulation in this world. However, true Christians can be joyful in whatever state they find themselves in knowing that all these things are temporal and God has a purpose for them.

    You cannot figure it all out because humans don’t know very much about the mind of God. We cannot comprehend what God has in store for those that love Him but we can trust that if there is a God that He will be a righteous God and that He would reveal Himself to creation and give us hope.

    He did that through His Son and what we need to know for our Christian walk is in the scriptures. Now your part is to believe and trust what God said. Christians too often do not realize that those that trusted in Jesus died with Him and are new creations born of the Spirit. There bodies of death really died with Christ. These bodies only live on earth by the power of the Spirit to do works of the Spirit to build on the house of God. We can live in our dead old nature but that is not why we were left here after being born from above.

    Whether we who died with Christ get to live one hour working for him on earth after salvation or 70 year is up to God and He will not put on us anything more than we can bear. If we endure a lot and stay faithful great rewards are also certain.

    If believers are going trough difficult times. God either will allow it for our spiritual learning or He will deliver us from it perhaps by calling us home. All things work together for good for those that love God and are called according to his purpose.

    I also want to add that missionaries to the worse places on earth tell me that people living in the worst of human conditions generally are not unhappy people. Happiness is relative. People with nothing can thank God for the people in their lives, a cup of cold water, or a piece of bread, or just finding out new things about God.

    Others, like some in the West have all material things and think they have God and everything else all figured out, but they still can be miserable in their new Lear Jet while trusting in their own worldly accomplishments with no hope in eternity.

    Happy New Year, David and all.

21. God’s omniscient, omnipotent and had the plan of salvation in place before the world began.He knew some men would reject him and yet allowed them to be born anyway.So in allowing their births,they will be tormented forever.the book of Ephesians says God does all
    for his own will and pleasure.The free will thing just does’nt hold up,really who would choose eternal torment over paradise if there was an unambiguous choice.

22. vt,

    God does not make men accept or reject His salvation so they obviously have free will. There would be no point in even preaching the gospel if everyone had no choice. That is Hypercalvinism. There are people that chose to reject God because they are of their father the Devil. Believe me they have no idea that they are choosing eternal torment over paradise. They think they can make a paradise without God right here. We see that attempt in world government and world religion today. You must think you’re a programmed robot. However, I do buy into your fatalism.

23. Don,I’m just saying if God is omniscient wether you freely choose him or not,in the case of not,he knows your going to the lake of fire,and yet allows your birth anyway,well thats a tough fact to get your brain around.

24. vt,

    Your natural brain will never get around the mind of God.

    If God did allow people to have the free will to chose to reject Him they would not have the free will to chose to love Him either. If God stopped people that He knew were going to reject Him from being born then there would have been no purpose for the Devil and his angels or sin and the fall and redemption through God’s Son. Obviously there is, and one reason probably is to produce a people that trust God through faith in His righteousness. That’s in contrast to the self righteousness of the Devil and his angels because of pride. Whom the sons of light are to replace.

    The tares were sown by the Devil, not God, and in that parable He says why they remain until the harvest.

25. vt: The free will thing just does’nt hold up,really who would choose eternal torment over paradise if there was an unambiguous choice.

    Yeah, what about Satanists ?

    They have obviously chosen a side and have, by their affiliation, admitted the existence of God.

26. Don,I guess I don’t like that purpose for the Devil,pain and any other bad thing in the universe,like Christ prayed before his crucifiction,Father I know you can take this cup from me never the less not my will but yours be done.Yes,It’s all for Gods will and pleasure,or does not the potter have power over the same lump of clay to make one vessel for honor and one for dishonor.I would love to “KNOW” without the probablys or you can’t know the mind of God or any other reason no one’s ever been able to truely rightly divide the word!

27. Ultimately we have just two beliefs in the debate on free will.

    Either a) men have free will and are deserving of the consequences of bad (evil) decisions, or b) they do not have free will and God arbitrarily saves whom he wills and condemns whom he wills to hell. We really only have these two beliefs.

    For myself, God is not an arbitrary devil (John Wesley); on the contrary he so loved the world that he gave men the opportunity to be reconciled to him through THE good decision of believing on Jesus of Nazareth the Son of God and Saviour of mankind, the lamb of God who took away the sin of the world.

28. vt,

    You will KNOW without the probables when the rest of us do. Maybe no one has ever got everything in the Bible totally correct but many have rightly divided the essentials of God’s word. After all God told us to study it so we could rightly divide His word and that instruction was not given as an April fools joke.

    You don’t like the bad things in the universe but God uses the bad things to perfected the elect drawn by the Spirit. So that must be a good thing. It seems like you like to dwell on the future of tares in the field, that were sown by the Devil and are only fit to be burned in the harvest rather than dwelling on the future of the wheat. It seems that you want to judge God with your human mind before you even know all the facts.

29. Freewill in anyone but God; who is awesomely perfect and good… leads to SIN.

    Adam & Eve sinned before the fall… before the curse… before any sin nature.
    Every man is Adam. Of course God new what would happen.

    Freewill in Man & Angels leads to Sin but it also leads to the FREE choice decision to repent (recognizing that doing our Will is darkness) and sincerely turning to God and desiring to worship him. To say… “your Will LORD, not mine” And all because of his Gracious Love & Mercy.

    God strives in EVERY man. NO ONE is without excuse. Whoever so believeth is saved.

    God’s perfect plan was started before time itself.

    Satan cannot come back and accuse God of cheating. Because the exact same thing would happen over and over again. Expecting a different result from 1 + 1 other than 2, is compete insanity.

    Satan has one command DO WHAT THOU WHILST!

    Freewill in Heaven will be awesome. No sin nature, No knowledge of Evil (been there done that – price paid in full) No death. absolute perfect righteousness because of the blood of the Lamb! God’s children will be FREE to CHOOSE any and all of the good things in God’s Kingdom.

30. Thanks for the excellent points Al.

31. Many things such as we’ve discussed here are very hard to reconcile, and we will spend a lifetime coming to understand and accept them. There are questions; there are answers, which, like gold, are a few nuggets for the taking, and deep, rich veins that are mined with sweat and tears…

    These were the sorts of things I wrestled with as a child, along with my part in this: why was I both good and evil? What was good and evil? Why did I wander through the cemetery for hours as a small child, longing for the peace of the dead? Why did I come to Christ?

    Looking back I see His hand in even the earliest parts of my life. He was there when I was raped by others and when someone tried to smother me. He was there when I struggled to grow but longed to die. He knew that I struggled with being ***so different*** from others, and that I felt evil and filthy for simply existing, and for existing in the male form that I endure. He spoke gently to me through people I sneered at. He knew I needed to know the truth about myself and that I needed a purpose to exist. He kept drawing me to Himself, and never let me have peace through the philosophies of this world. He was patient with me and brought someone into my life who helped me with His answers to my questions but put in the way that spoke to me with my history and make-up, and He testified of Himself through others in whom I saw Jesus live…

    I didn’t want to come to God because as I learned more and more about Him, I realized that His love was *so desirable* — HE IS SO DESIREABLE — and I was (and am) *so unworthy* of it and undesireable. I came to realize that all of what I knew and clung to as good was simply an extension of His character, acts of His hand (if only indirectly). I realized that I could no longer embrace good without surrendering to the One who defined goodness (I *so* SO MUCH wanted to be a good person). BUT I knew that this kind of goodness simply wasn’t in me, I was tainted with evil no amount of my “goodness” would remove: I was part of problem, I was *personally hurting God*, and more than ever, I wished I did not exist. BUT I wanted to know the truth, even if it meant that Hell was real and I must go there without recourse. (And in His grace, He never disposed of me there, as many times as I begged Him to do so.)

    Ultimately, He answered my deepest questions that stood between us and I *still* was afraid to give myself to Him: I knew I would fail, I could never love Him as He deserved. At the very point of the decision, THE TIME, my “edge of eternity,” He urgently seemed to say “Brett, I’ve revealed all of this about myself to you and you have to decide: the choice is me or the other thing.” (I knew the “other thing” was insanity: I was afraid of insanity because I was afraid I would go “postal” and hurt others. Death, by contrast, was peace to me, and I’d already faced many times in my childhood.) In agony, I chose Him; it was the first of many times I abandoned myself to Him. I didn’t want God’s “stuff” and I asked Him not to bless me, but only to remake me so that I could please Him because I have no other reason to exist…

    God uses the bad things for our good. He is *extravagant* in His grace which touches what we can seen and what we cannot, deep in ourselves, and in the myriad ways we are interconnected with others. We are Lines of His poetry, we are Threads in His tapestry, Tessela in His mosaic…

    And so, with His Spirit indwelling, and my own spirit made alive, He could begin the lifelong process of healing me, even as He uses me, loving through me, even in my struggling imperfect way, He touches those lives that are close to me…

    In a perfect world, I would be an “orange,” but because of The Fall, I am a “plum.” After decades of prayer, hard work and tears, it seems unlikely that God will turn me into the “orange” I might otherwise have been. Instead, He seems to be remaking me into a comely and delicious “plum pie” for the blessing of others, for His glory, and for my everlasting joy…

    When we give our lives to Christ, we *are* new creatures: first our spirit is completely changed: made *alive*, “from death to life!” Then for the rest of our earthly-lives, our souls (our minds & hearts) are renewed: made *Christlike* in character and we bear good fruit. Then, when we cross into eternity “proper,” our bodies will be remade: we will come of age into our inheritance, fully new creatures (at least as we understand that now). YET I strongly suspect we will continue growing and changing, maturing, ever blossoming in more glorious ways, our Lord, our Love, steps ahead of us, encouraging and challenging us upward…

    Abba, thank You. We are *so blessed* as Your Beloved! Thank You that an important part of “holiness” is “wholeness.” Thank You that You take our blemishes and scars and make them into beautiful re-birthmarks to our wonder, our joy, the blessing of others, and to Your glory forever! We praise You Lord: Father, Jesus and Spirit!

32. Brett, thanks for that plum pie, and it is very timely being in the Holiday Season.

33. Brett,

    I know where you are coming from (in your above comments) and I concur with you.

    I am thankful every day that the Lord has honed me to pursue him.

    When I stray from “The Word”, there is misery in the delusion of what this world has to offer…when I get back on track and pursue “The Word”, there is ultimate fulfillment and joy.

34. Thanks Don.

    And thanks Brett for you comments. You made some great points.

    I too was abused as a young person. Nowhere near what you had to endure though. Praise the Lord His light Won out in you!

    I was physically abused until I could actually defend myself somewhat (16 or 17 years old) Being kicked down a flight of stairs for bringing the wrong tool is one little tiny example. Having my Jaw/head smashed against the toilet at the age of 9 for doing what kids do is another. (I don’t remember what I did that day – must have been BAD though) Not many days would go by that I wasn’t beaten. Eating supper at the table with him was quite a flinch fest. Every time he moved his hand to get bread or serve himself. I’d flinch. Because Sometimes that hand would smash against my face, instead of getting bread. When I look at my children know it is still is hard to comprehend how someone can do that. But how can one understand lunacy?
    I was Psychologically abused for what seemed like forever. It never seemed to end – even when I left home in my 20’s and came to visit from time to time. “you are garbage and will amount to nothing” was his daily meal for me. This all came from my Father.

    But my mother loved me. Sometimes inappropriately. The saddest thing of all was that I was ignorantly sexually abused by her until I came into puberty. She meant no evil. But kissing your child EVERYWHERE until he comes into puberty is not a proper behaviour. So factor in what Daddy did, to what she did… and voila. A prefect recipe of circumstance for Satan to get his dirty little hands on.

    But his Light won out in me too.
    I thank the Lord everyday!

35. Yes, Al, it’s amazing what our Great God does for us; this scripture comes to mind when I read your testimony:

    Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of compassion and the God of all comfort, who comforts us in all our troubles, so that we can comfort those in any trouble with the comfort we ourselves have received from God. For just as the sufferings of Christ flow over into our lives, so also through Christ our comfort overflows. If we are distressed, it is for your comfort and salvation; if we are comforted, it is for your comfort, which produces in you patient endurance of the same sufferings we suffer. And our hope for you is firm, because we know that just as you share in our sufferings, so also you share in our comfort. (2 Corinthians 1:3-7)

    I used to struggle with the idea that God would only help me work through my afflictions and “stuff” ONLY IF these were “for Christ.” (Only hurts and such occurring “in-the-line-of-duty” were qualified for His touch!) One of the more tender things I’ve learned from God, is that *whenever* we give Him *anything* in our lives, it then becomes *holy* and He enters it, and He will help us through it. Even when I screw-up, when I’ve sinned: when I surrender it to Him, abandoning myself to Him, asking Him to be in this with me even-so: then He helps me through the circumstances, the consequences, the opportunities, in a way that glorifies Him. If He does this, though I have sinned, then how much more is He there for everything else?

    There is nothing secular that cannot be made sacred by inviting Him in. And even the sacred can be profaned when we exclude Him. I firmly believe that He intends all of our life to be sacred (even {maybe especially?} the funny and messy parts!) Being “sacred” doesn’t mean we are “down in the mouth” or “killjoys,” but the sacredness is that He is near in everything, and by our longing and invitation we invite Him: HE LETS US WALK CLOSE BESIDE HIM. And there is no more room for shame or embarrassment or fear: by degrees, as we grow, because He increasingly fills those dark places in our lives. AND this abundance “leaks-out,” and sometimes gushes out as His very Living Water spills to other people who are parched and in need of Him and His love. We are *so blessed* that He would do this in and through us!

    Trust, the “practical side” of belief is key to our growth and relationship in and with Him! Al, you and I and others have walked one particular path through which our trust was lost, but then He works to rebuild a new, Heavenly trust in us! For all of us, it is variations on a theme: trial-by-trial, test-by-test, faith-by-faith. And so, we become examples of His grace and glory, and we can become instruments of love in ways that other people need to experience. And He does the miraculous overcoming impossibilities in each of us along our varied paths — each of us unique, and uniquely suited to assist in His redemption of humanity and creation…

    So, God takes the risk in letting us decide for ourselves. And together, we bear the consequences of these decisions, yet He (and we who are His) win in the end because He redeems the worst havoc that sin can wreck, making the whole even more beautiful than it was before it was marred! And through all of this hurt He says “You are loved.” And from the foundation of the world, He loved us and He wants us to choose Him…

36. You guys make me think that I lived in Heaven as a child but I still suffer from PTSD from my own childhood. What a crazy world we live in and it has got worse since we were children. Thank God for the Love of God and His Spirit in us or we would all be killing each other.

    The fallen human nature leads to a downward spiral of abuse and violence that is only stopped through divine intervention. It is obvious that those that reject God soon devolve into becoming predatory animals. In spite of those that think humans can evolve to become gods.

37. Don wrote: >>Also you are preaching limited atonement and believe that man can lose his salvation if He sins that is a lie of the Devil.<<

    Questions: What kind of sins does God allow us to commit while retaining our salvation? How many times can we commit these sins and yet still be saved? Is God big enough to send His only begotten Son to earth to be our Christmas, but somehow He does not have the power, or won't use His power, to deliver people from their sin nature?

38. Stephen,
    You that said the blood of Jesus will not atone for our souls if we willfully sin:

    Nowadays, man is still reaching out for the forbidden fruit, even so called Christians. In the beginning, the penalty for sin was death, and that penalty is still enforce. Jesus’ blood will not be there to atone for our souls if we willfully reach out for forbidden fruit (sin). It’s time to press in toward holiness and righteousness.

    You are wrong.

    To answer your question:
    Salvation comes by trusting belief in the Savior that God sent. Jesus blood covered all sins past present and future. Jesus clearly said that all manor of sins will be forgiven men accept for the unforgivable sin. That sin is believing that the Holy Spirit that Jesus displayed is evil (Mt 12-31-37). Jesus goes on calling those doing so vipers Because they were tares and they were of their father the Devil. Therefore, what will not be forgiven is those son’s of Satan that make the works of their lying father good and the works of the Creator evil.

    Jesus will deliver us from these bodies of sin when we die and are transformed. Until then we carry this body of sin with us and I can assure you Christians do sin. And that is why John said to Christians:

    1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
    9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
    10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
    2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
    2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

39. Hello Don and others,

    It has been awhile since I have commented. For various reasons, I have been inclined to read more than comment. This particular thread caught my attention, and I decided to share some thoughts. This particular thread has taken multiple turns with alot of different ideas from which to comment. I have always been both fascinated, and grateful that we love a Lord who knew every sin that we would ever commit, and still chose to offer salvation. The concept of being able to see all from the beginning to the end goes well beyond human comprehension. I wrestle with the part that “free will” has to play in the big picture. While God knows what will happen, within that truth, there is the free will that we all have to choose. However, without the Holy Spirit, there would be no conviction of sin, and thus, we would be trapped in sin.

    I have also heard, and I also teach to my clients, that we “lead with our wounds”. The areas where we have been damaged in life the most, will be the most evident unless healing from the Lord takes place. I also find it fascinating and encouraging how God uses the broken pieces of our lives for His glory if we allow it.

    Along that line of thought, I have never really believed in true “athiests”. I do not believe it is possible, since we are now learning that there are sections of the brain that light up specifically when in prayer. Almost as if we are “hard wired” to seek a creator. I believe that athiests are people who have unresolved anger toward their creator. Often, athiests are people who have been beaten up, judged, and otherwise abused by “believers”, or at least, professing believers. There are, unfortunately, alot of imposters within the church today. I have had the privelage of helping teens who have been harmed by these individuals, and helped them move toward a healthy relationship with the Lord.

    I am not really sure why I commented today. I suppose the heartfelt accounts of abuse that were shared reminded me of how faithful the healing of God can be if we allow his healing to occur.

    🙂 Praise be to God.

    Rod in Oregon

40. Dear Don,

    If one willfully partakes of sin, even one sin, then they will indeed die just like Adam & Eve. God and sin don’t mix; we can’t partake of sin and partake of God too. God has called His children unto holiness. The devil used a serpent to convince Eve that it was OK to partake of sin; he’s still in business today. Sinners are going to hell and the Saints are going to heaven.

    In regard to the first Chapter of 1 John, the Bible is saying that those who deny that they have no sin and in need of a Savior are deceived. If, however, they will humble themselves and believe, then the blood of Jesus will deliver them so that they can “go and sin no more”.

    Romans 8:1 – There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

    Notice the condition: “who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” One cannot partake of the works of the flesh and expect to belong to God.

    Romans 8:13 – For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

    What are the works of the flesh that we need to avoid?

    Galatians 5:19-21 – Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

    Once again, all willful sinners are going to hell, even the ones professing Jesus’ name. So, what is the real Christmas story? Who really belongs to the Savior born in a manger?

    Galatians 5:24 – And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

41. Hi Rod
    It is evident you commented today because the Holy Spirit prompted you to do so.
    You covered and enlarged on the things we as a fellowship have spoken of and in so doing shared in that fellowship.
    Such fellowship broadens our horizons of understanding and empathy.
    Like Don I had a carefree childhood but found sufficient pressure in adolescence and young adulthood to reveal to me my need of a Saviour.
    The choice the Lord gave me that evening was heaven or hell; I do not remember a single word of the gospel given to me, but the Holy Spirit convicted me of the certainty of heaven or hell and of course he led me all the way to choose Jesus Christ, the Way the Truth and the Life.
    For those who feel their ignorance in spiritual matters I can only encourage to persevere in seeking truth. God will not let you down.

42. Stephen,

    Let my be frank, you’re trapped in some narrow legalism of works salvation. You choose selective scriptures without any true understanding of them and ignore the more clear passages. If you really believe that people that sin are not saved then you are not saved yourself, because I can assure you that you do sin.

    The scriptures talking about living by the power of the Spirit have no bearing on salvation which is through grace through faith alone. You add to the free gift of salvation the burden of living a sinless life. There is only one man that ever lived a sinless life and that was Jesus. He covered our sins with his blood because none of us can be sinless while living in a mortal body.

    Your explanation of 1 John Chapter One does not at all explain why we have a advocate that is interceding for us before the throne. If Christians were sinless there would be no need for a advocate High Priest that intercedes for our sins as Satan is accusing us. God sees us as sinless because we are covered by the blood of Jesus but we still sin.

    Romans 8:1 – All other literal versions other than the King James, that I have read says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus” period. The earliest manuscripts did not have the second half of that verse which tells me that it was added later by some translator that just could not believe that Christians could sin. If you check out most other versions of the Bible you will not find the second part of that verse.

    Romans 8:13 is saying that Christians should be putting to death the deeds of the body through living in the Spirit. It is the sanctification process and has nothing to do with our salvation.

    Galatians 5:19-21 is saying that the unregenerate will not inherent the Kingdom of God. The Greek tense means to do these things continually like the regenerate would do by nature. Remember we are new creations and it is not our nature to live in these sinful lifestyles any longer and if we do sin we have an advocate. Putting on the mind of Christ does not come instantly.

    Frankly, you do not have a clue who Jesus will send to the Lake of fire so why pretend that you do? Obviously all Israel sinned and people that will live in the millennial kingdom will sin. Sin does not send people to hell it is mankind’s fallen nature to miss the mark of perfection (sin). Hell is for those that reject the Savior. To think that God is sending everyone to hell is rather bazaar. You think God contradicts Himself when he says all that believe that Jesus is lord will be saved?

    “Who really believes in the Savior born in a manger”, you ask? All those that believe in the only name given by which man must be saved.

    Gal 5:24 is saying that Christians crucified the flesh with Jesus at the cross so we are to die daily to the flesh because our flesh and sin will keep rearing its ugly head if we do not keep that in mind and put on the mind of Christ. It has nothing to do with salvation.

    I am done with you on this issues. You have no understanding of the scriptures and if you are attending a church that is teaching you this legalism I suggest that you depart and find a church that teaches salvation by grace through faith alone, rather than one that keeps you in bondage to achieve salvation through your own efforts. It only leads to self condemnation. You know very well that you sin.

    Here is an article I wrote that seems to apply.

    http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/The%20dark%20side%20of%20Christanity.htm

43. Brian,

    One correction. I do not think you read me correctly. I had anything but a carefree childhood. I had a very high stress childhood. I compared it to PTSD of those in warfare because I was in almost constant warfare in my own home, neighborhood and school environment for over a decade.

44. Amen Brett,Don, Brian!

    BTW: Great explanation Don (just above)

    Don`t know if anybody saw this yet…

    http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpps/entertainment/maher-draws-ire-with-profane-tweet-about-tebow-dpgonc-20111227-kh_16629196#ixzz1hma2QNRP

    What a swell guy!

    God help him!

45. Hi Don
    I am not good at acronyms. I need PSD explained.
    I guess I was looking more at what Brett and Al had endured.

46. Hi Brian,

    It might help if I actually used the right Acronym
    I meant post traumatic stress disorder. I think that would be PTSD
    I will change the original so I do not confuse anyone else

47. If I may, PTSD is a very disabling condition. The common belief 30 years ago was that only individuals who had undergone highly traumatic events such as combat, violence, etc, developed the condition. We now know that it is not the severity of the psychosocial stressor or event, it is the persons response to it. I grew up in a household where disagreemants were often met with rejection or scorn. Also, different opinions were not really tolerated, and if someone was in “error”, they were derided and put down. I have seen this alot among both Christians and non Christians… Disagreemants are often resolved, “or not resolved” through rejection, scorn, ridicule or just being told your ignorant. I do not believe any of those responses are of Christ. I have seen this from both professing Christians, and non believers. At times, even in some of the comments on this blog, I have seen where those with different opinions are responded to with a level of harshness that I do not personally see as Christlike. Not being judgemental, just sharing an opinion. I believe that one of the barriers between followers of Christ, and reaching the lost is the emotional/physical/spiritual damage they have experienced through their own sin, as well as the sin of others. I believe our responses to others should always be with the compassion of Christ, sensitive to their place in life.
    Additionally, PTSD in it’s true form results in very serious symptoms and can be triggered by many things. I have learned as a professional in the field of Mental Health/Chemical Dependency work that I must always choose my words carefully lest I set off the triggers.

    Just a few thoughts.. 🙂
    Rod in Oregon

48. Rod,

    You said PTSD comes from the person’s response to the stressor so you seem to be saying the problem is with the victims response to the abusers rather than the abuse? Although I find that there may be truth that I could have dealt with the situations better. I am not going to take the fall for having PTSD because I was a victim of bullies and predators.

    If I could have dealt with the stessors without Christ in my life I would have done physical harm to some people. Which probably explains why I would not take any crap from anyone when I did take charge. Of course I instantly got the compassion of Christ when I believed in Christ the very same way that I never sinned again as a Christian

49. Al said – “Freewill in Heaven will be awesome. No sin nature, No knowledge of Evil (been there done that – price paid in full) No death. absolute perfect righteousness because of the blood of the Lamb! God’s children will be FREE to CHOOSE any and all of the good things in God’s Kingdom.”

    I would disagree with the statement about not having knowledge of evil in heaven. I think we will have knowledge of evil and that’s the point of what we are going through now. Adam and Eve sinned through the freedom God granted them through free will (which I would argue is a requirement of true love) despite living in a perfect state . What they lacked was a knowledge of good and evil. Without that knowledge, they were easily deceived into choosing sin over God. We will have the benefit of having lived through the consequences of sin. And it is that knowledge that will allow us to live eternally without making the same mistake again (and again because of love and the requirement that love allows free choice, we will have the freedom to choose something other than God, we just won’t. Because we’ll know better.) And I think that might be why we are forced to go through this short term existence marred by sin so that our eternal existence can be asurred of not making the same mistake that Adam and Eve did.

    I know that’s all ‘theoretical’ and I don’t really have any scripture to back it up but that’s what I came up with when I was wrestling with the question of why God created us knowing in advance that we would sin and rebel against Him.

50. Good morning Don,

    Let me clarify a little more 🙂 The reason I mentioned the persons response is only help explain why some who appear to have had “less severe” trauma are as susceptible to PTSD as those who have had harsher experiences. Thats not blaming the victim at all, it validates the reality of the experience. LOL.. I like your comment about not taking crap once you got older. Very true, and without the “hand on the shoulder” from the Holy Spirit, I would probably be in jail by now. I would never “blame the victim”, I have worked with too many victims to ever do that. Rather, I have seen in our society a “compartmentalizing” of the severity of abuse. Those who have experienced more severe trauma in the eyes of society, will often see those with less severe histories and have the attitude that they should not have residual damage. That is just a lie from satan. I am sorry if my post didnt clarify that point enough. Thanks for bringing that to my attention. 🙂 In the end, abuse is abuse… Damage is damage… And true healing can only come through a spiritual healing process that comes from the Holy Spirit. 🙂 I am fortunate that I work in the field of addictions primarily, and have a private practice… So I can talk about spirituality, and lead people in the direction of Jesus. I think one of the reasons I read your blog is to keep an eye on whats going on, and see how much longer I will have this same freedom… 🙂

51. LOL…. Ok, I just caught your last sentence… “that I never sinned again as a Christian”… My response is best taken from that cheezy movie “Napoleon Dynamite”… “Luucky!”… I wish I could be free from sin this side of glory.

    I do have a question that I have never been able to find resolution to. While I believe we can be free from “bondage” of sin, we are not free from it. But what about those who have “tasted” the goodness of God, have accepted the Lord.. But then fall away, and openly return to a life of sin and disregard for a relationship with the Lord? While I do believe that the Love of God will not let go of us… What if the person let’s go of God? I don’t know that there is an answer, but it concerns me as I have known many who followed the Lord so closely, and then chose to return to a life of open sin and rebellion. One argument is that they had never really accepted the Lord in the first place. I became a Christian in a Southern Baptist church, spent most of my life in the Nazarene church, and so I have studied both theologies quite extensively. If anyone has any thoughts on this question, I would love to hear them. 🙂 Thanks for the discussion. Some theological brain food during my vacation is just what the doctor ordered. 🙂

52. Rod,

    That makes sense. Thanks for the professional input.

    At the rate we are going I do not think you will be able to read blogs like mine much longer. Then after free speech dies so will freedom to express your Christian views even in substance abuse counseling.

    Obama, Europe, Islam, China and the UN are already showing us the direction that the sons of Satan intend to take the world.

53. Rod,

    As you know, for those that believe in once saved always saved, those that fell away were never really saved but just gave lip service to the Lord.

    Personally, what I am sure of is that believers have eternal security. Can a believer become an unbeliever and be damned? God knows.

    I think believers in the Lord Jesus have nothing to worry about but unbelievers have plenty to worry about even if they made some kind of confession at some point in their life. Not that unbelievers would even care.

54. To Rod:
    Re: your question as to what if a believer returns to a life of sin and disregards a relationship with the Lord…. My understanding is that if a person sincerely gave his life to Jesus, then at some point later succumbed to temptation & abandoned his faith, he IS still saved from the flames of Hell… but on Judgement Day will be sent to a place where he will have little else but that. We will be rewarded on the basis of what we did AFTER we were saved to redeem the time serving God- i.e. reward to a Priest/Pastor who did tremendous good in his Church helping hundreds or thousands, for example, would have a higher reward than a layman who barely tythed, or never gave of their time to win others to the Lord. All considered, only God knows the true intent or circumstances of a person’s heart, & will judge according to each individual’s motives in all they do after deciding to serve or reject Christ. 🙂

55. Don,

    Can a believer become an unbeliever and be damned?
    That is such a tricky question because of the, “Were they a believer in the first place ?”, question.

    From what I’ve witnessed and read about others, there are sincere believers in Christ, but without understanding and deep conviction…and when things get tough in life or disaster strikes, they abandon God, curse God, or don’t see how God can exist and let these things happen in their personal lives.

    This, I think, as I’ve stated before, is a big concern for those Christians who are not grounded with understanding, conviction, and mental preparation…for the soon coming world events.

    Yep, what a shame it will be when the day comes that we can’t voice our “hate speech” on Al Gore’s internet !

56. @ Mark.

    I appreciate what your saying.
    But If you consider my statement more carefully you may reconsider. I don’t know exactly what it will be like in Heaven, any more than anyone. However what I wrote does reconcile itself with the fact that there will be no more tears. Evil; and the knowledge there-of brings (at the every least) consternation. And worry can lead to tears. You might say… “well God will eliminate our worry through showing us that we are safe in Him. We would already know that! I know that now.
    So then why have the knowledge of Evil around? Why have that in Heaven? Like I said, I don’t know for certain; but what I wrote is reasonable.

57. @ Mark.

    Hey Bro… as I was about to walk away from my Computer… something came to me.

    Remember how the Lord said that in Heaven no one is given away in marriage. As we will be like the Angels. And that one’s wife on earth is now everyone’s sister in Heaven. And vice versa per a Husband.

    You following?

    So; you will easily admit to yourself that Lust is an EVIL that has been gnawing at man since the Fall. And if you say that we will retain the knowledge of Evil. Then LUST will certainly be remembered. But the only way to “remember” this EVIL would require one to be able to “sense” it within. You can’t explain lust to a creature that does not have the ability to sense it. Think about it. Can you explain lust apart from the carnal desire? I just don’t see how I can enjoy Heaven if I have to retain such a perversion (a knowledge of the most basest of Evil’s) in me.
    No way!

    Hope this Help’s

58. ~David,

    I do not think a true believer can continue to do that. Many people just trust in their Christian religion and religion never saved anyone, so they fall away from that religion. I am sure the same things you described happens to believers of other religious. Faith in religious faith is doomed to fail.

59. Al, Mark,

    I think it says somewhere that these former things will not be remembered but I just cannot put my finger on the passage.

60. Rod?

    I’ve wondered about this myself, both for myself and others.

    For me, I am absolutely doomed if maintaining my salvation is my responsibility. I agonized over this, and it’s (yet) another place where I’ve simply had to cast myself onto God.

    I remember as a relatively new Christian, in the depths of deep depression when at the blackest part, I sensed God saying to me “Brett, no one can snatch me out of my hand, not even you.” I assumed it was God because I would never have said that to myself in the state I was in (after having begged Him to destroy me), and I couldn’t imagine that the evil one would say that either (when you’re enemy is killing himself, get out of the way). Later, I came to realize that it had a basis in scripture…

    Then, I’ve agonized over the idea, was I really, REALLY, R-E-A-L-L-Y sincere (enough!) to have truly ask for God’s pardon in Christ? And (as if that was not enough!), did I “accept” Jesus the “right” way??? What it all came down to was TRUST. I knew I could not trust myself, even that I could not trust myself to know if I was truly trusting God. You can see this goes around and around, and some people really struggle with these kinds of things. BUT again, I came to the point where I simply had to abandon myself to Him. If I wasn’t sincere enough, then I just wasn’t: even so, I cannot leave Him. Even if I didn’t say everything (e.g: sinner’s prayer) exactly right, He is the one who makes life worth living. And though my life seems more difficult now that I have cast my lot with Him, how could I cast Him away? He has the words of eternal life, and He *knows* me and *somehow* still desires me. I can be angry with Him and feel hurt and frustrated, and even doomed, and I can ask Him to throw me away: still He is there and I cannot turn back. He has changed me and this I cannot undo…

    But, Rod, to get to these points required that I experience a LOT of pain, and also working-through the pain of my experiences prior to Jesus (and this took years, even years before it became *safe* to do so). Each struggle was a challenge: “Brett? Will you trust me in this?” And many times I would need to get to the very end of myself where the only thing left was to jump into what would seem to be an abyss: the abyss was never a place of harm, though sometimes it hurt…it was always a place of surprise, and it was a place where God was. (No place is unbearable where God is.) Many trials and trusts later, my spiritual vision is not so dim, and the “abysses” seem more like portals of grown now…

    But what of the people who really seem to abandon God?

    A couple of things come to mind here:

    When we consider Jesus’ parable about the seed sown into different soils, we are tempted to think that only the seed sown into the fourth, good soil (that returns a harvest), is the soil representing true believers. But I wonder. The first soil, the one where the is eaten by the birds before it even has a chance to germinate, I think represents people who have never known Jesus in a saving way. The second soil, the one where the seed germinates, but then it rapidly withers, many would call these “fair-weather” Christians. To me, it does seem likely that they were not sincere in their commitment and so they were never really saved; yet there *may* be some true believers among them. Next there is the third soil: here the seed sprouts and grows, but it never bears fruit because it is choked-off by thorns and weeds – the cares and enticements of the world. I think that there are a lot of true Christians in this group, with *some* unsaved people who are “Christian” out of habit or duty…

    The thing that strikes me here is that we simply don’t know what is in the hearts of other people. Only God knows if we’ve accepted Him on His terms or not. I suspect it’s not as formulaic as “Evangelism Explosion” type folks assume. In the best cases, we not only accept His pardon, we will accept His Lordship and cooperate with His Spirit as He makes us Christlike: here we will bear good fruit. But each of us Christians know what it is to struggle with our sin natures, our past, our inclinations, our habits (our “flesh,” not to mention the evil one). We are successful at times and we fail at times, and many things influence the degree to which we will cooperated with His Spirit…

    I’ve wondered if people can become spiritually damaged: could you be *so burned* by a bad experience that you “shut down” spiritually? “Spiritual Polio?” Do you remember reading of people, in centuries past, who have been overcome by an illness that didn’t kill them, but left them bed-ridden; remember in the past how people would be afflicted with “consumption?” I’ve wondered this about my parents who were so active in their local church, and then “fell away” when the church blamed them for the death of my infant twin brother by pneumonia: they almost never set foot in a church again after that, and they resented my commitment to Jesus…

    Can Christians become so hurt that they effectively become paralyzed in their walks with God? Maybe that they become “sterilized” and cannot “spiritually reproduce?” They bear no seed, no fruit? Maybe they are angry with God, so angry? Who can tell, but God Himself? This world is *so hurt*, so sin-sick, so screwed-up that I’m inclined to think this happens; I think it happens a LOT…

    BUT at the very least, it’s a dangerous place to be!!! AND if it really is our responsibility to maintain our salvation (which I firmly don’t believe), then such people are almost certainly doomed. BUT aside from what I discern from scripture (and His Spirit’s illumination of that in my spirit), I don’t think we in the church age are responsible for maintaining our salvation status. I could be wrong, but if I am, it almost certainly means I am doomed, because I know something of the condition of my natural self.

    I think a good scriptural argument can be made that there is a dual aspect to our relationship with God: we are first in *union* with Him. When we accept Jesus’ pardon and first surrender to Him, then we are adopted into God’s family. We’re “blood” and “blood is thicker than water.” You don’t throw your relatives away, you don’t disown your children (yes, it happens, but it’s not supposed to). The other aspect of the relationship is *fellowship* and that’s when we are cooperating with His Spirit, “walking with Jesus” living “in the Spirit.” Union is necessary for it to be possible to bear fruit. Fellowship is the bearing-fruit part! Union is the regeneration part; fellowship is the sanctification, the growth part…

    Because salvation is God’s free gift (free so none of us could boast {even if only to ourselves!} about what we did to earn it), good works cannot be for the sake of earning or even maintaining our salvation. Rather, they are an outpouring and demonstration of our fellowship with Him. But even here, only God can fully discern our (and others’) motives: did we do this good thing because it’s an “ought” or because it brings us joy to be able to be used of God to help someone else? Did we avoid (fill-in-the-blank) because we thought God would send us to Hell if we did it, or were we sort-of wanting it, but wanting more to avoid disappointing our Savior, God our Love?

    See how *so much* of this is bound-up in our thought-life, with how we respond to things based on how we’ve responded before, how we drag our “baggage” around with us? This is not to absolve us of responsibility, but only to recognize that things are not nearly so simple as they appear or seem…

    It’s simple, only it’s not: with me, I used to think it was *so hard* to “just believe” or to “just stop thinking those bad thoughts.” My wife has a very simple sort of faith in that she never gets caught in thought-traps, and she never “over analyzes” things; for her, it’s easy to “just do it!” But it’s never been simple for me – I couldn’t (wouldn’t: so bound-up that I practically couldn’t) YET, in the end, I *have* found that trusting *is* a simple step, a simple act, BUT getting to that point has often (especially in the early stages) been an agonizing journey me.

    Here’s a concrete example: I used to tell myself lies about myself. I used to tell myself I was worthless, that I wasn’t really a person at all, that I was unworthy and un-saveable. God’s mercy was for everyone but me; death was for me. I told myself lies, others had taught me, lies I taught myself. I replayed these tapes over and again. And with limited understanding, I was also able to twist scripture into supporting some of these lies. Yet God said different things about me, things that were very opposed to my self-beliefs. It was **MUCH EASIER** to continue to believe my well-worn “tapes.” But eventually, these turned *so sour* that having driven myself into yet another black depression, I was willing to start telling myself the good things that scripture had to say about me, what God has done for me, and for how He views me. I had to replace those old tapes with new ones that had His truth about me on them. It was HARD to believe these, but thought-by-thought, I rejected a lie and replaced it with His truth, and I had to do this over and over, and then I started to feel the healing balm of His Word…(and there is nothing like His balm in all the world)…

    So, Rod, I’ve learned that God has us in His hands and that He’s not going to let us go, and certainly not going to let the enemy snatch us from His saving grip, nor let our own weaknesses destroy His work in us. I’ve also come to realize that God is not out looking for ways to disqualify us on a “technicality.” The “sinner’s prayer” doesn’t have to be recited “just so,” it has to be a heart-felt, needful cry to God for to do what only He can do. I’ve learned that God knows our hearts, all the dark nooks and crannies, all the doubts, all the pride, but He also sees all the potential, and the love that He can fan into flames. I have learned that “be ye perfect” isn’t a demand for perfectionism, it is a call to maturity: maturity is something that takes a lifetime to develop, and it means taking the risk to make mistakes (and yes, we will sin as part of this). I have learned, deep in my heart now, that if God calls me clean, then I am clean, and this frees me to walk in newness of life. I have learned in my heart that if God is for us, who can be against us? Who can separate us from the love of Christ?

    Still, I am *deeply* concerned for those who turn their backs on God, yet there is hope that that is only what seems to be happening…

    I write this as my own son, now twenty, is wondering if He really is Christian. He made his commitment quite young, and has born a lot of good fruit, but he has doubts. He is at the stage where his faith must be totally HIS faith, just between him and God, without Judi and I being an integral part of it as his parents. He is confused because for everything thing he has been taught by us, he thinks he sees a counter argument from atheists. He is VERY intelligent, and we have encouraged him to think for himself, and this is a difficult season for all of us. Yet, I am very confident that our Josh does know Jesus, and even though he feels intellectually dishonest calling himself a Christian right now, he still asks me to pray for him and we still discuss spiritual things, and I continue to discuss science things with him. (He sees that I have no fear of science, that somehow God will go away in a “puff of logic” or be made irrelevant by a new discovery.) I have been where he is in many respects, and I’ve told him that while he will never be able to “prove” God exists in a “mathematical sense,” God will make Himself known to him (Josh) in a way that will answer his doubts. I am trusting Josh to God’s hands; it’s all I can do…it’s one more person/thing I must abandon to His care.

    Sorry (to all) to ramble…Rod, does any of this help?

61. Thanks Brett, that was very well written! 🙂 Sounds like the place I have come to, is the same as yours. And Don, thanks as well, I very much agree. Bretts answer was very encouraging and helpful. I really liked the description of “spiritual polio”. I have met, as I am sure others have, people who were so harmed and damaged spiritually that they are in a sense bed ridden. That is a great description, and if you don’t mind, I will use that concept in my work with clients! Thank you!

    My son, who is 15, is in the process of developing his relationship with the Lord on his own terms. He has a youth group that is teaching real Christlikeness, and thus far, we are happy with the direction. There are so many misleading ideas out there, it can make me a bit paranoid. But I refuse to take my eye off the ball when it comes to my son knowing the truth.

    It seems very consistent with scripture that God’s love does not move with the ebb and flow of our emotional status. We often get caught up with our “feelings”, and somehow let that be the barometer of our relationship with God… And it is not. God’s love, fortunately, does not move or shift with what our mood is… I have sometimes thought the “they were really never saved” argument was too simplistic… But perhaps it is not as “simplistic” as I thought.

    If one has truly “bought the deal”, and found the Lord, that impacts the person their whole life, whether they always see that or not. The replies to my post have given me tremendous food for thought, and I thank you all for that. Continued growth and maturity in Christ is what I seek.

    A final thought… I like what you said Brett, about God not looking for ways to “disqualify” us from salvation. That is truly the danger of Wesleyan/Armenian thought. There is the constant fear that this was “one sin to many, and now we have lost salvation”. Talk about giving someone an anxiety disorder! LOL…

    🙂 Thanks all for making this a really helpful, and God glorifying discussion.

    Rod in Oregon

62. Whether a person is in fact a Christian or a make believer is founded on the simple imperative “You must be born again”. But it is obvious that being born again is not clear to all those who are (and from a number of comments over the months, to those who aren’t). With me it was no problem, God gave me such a sense of well being and joy, and has constantly reinforced that experience with life changing truths from his word that I have always been able to say, “I know in whom I have believed…”

    Others being taught from childhood (my children) never have known the exact hour but have grown in the grace and knowledge of Christ until in adulthood they too can say with absolute confidence “I know in whom I have believed…”

    From what Brett has related it is clear that growing in grace and knowledge to the point where one can know Christ with assurance is not always easy. It is also clear that empathy and understanding must be shown to those who profess Christ but who struggle with the things of the flesh. As an aside: Beware of those who profess yet have no such struggles.

    My struggles had to do with assurance of God’s unchanging grace and goodness in my affairs. I have since learned that if God seemed far away it was because I had moved – into the shadows of ego.

    The secret to a victorious life in Christ is to know and believe what God has to say in his word; not a presumptuous belief in one’s own understanding, but a willingness to learn, and to learn from others.

63. And Stephen if you read the comments above you would see why we cannot determine who is or is not saved by their performance. Each of us has unique issues to deal with. Being born from above starts the process of the Spirit man wanting to gain victory over the flesh it does not end the process or even assure that victory will be won while living in our natural bodies. like Paul said:

    Ro 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
    15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
    16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
    17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
    19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
    20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
    21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
    22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
    23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
    24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
    25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
    1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus.

    Was Paul not saved? And contrary to what you said, the last part of Romans 8:1 does not confirm that only the KJV is reliable and modern translations are not. The second part of Romans 8:1 is simply not in the earliest Greek texts. If you actually did some research instead of just reacting in blind obedience to your own prejudice you would find that out. But even if it were meant to be there, it would not change the fact that Christians do sin.

    Your last comment was not posted because you refuse to be teachable even though you know that you are wrong. I do not need to tell you that you know that you are a sinner. You know that you are, but then you say that anyone that sins is not saved, putting your own self under self condemnation.

64. Don,

    That is fascinating.. I had not heard that before about Romans 8:1, and the last part not being in the earliest manuscripts. So the early Greek manuscripts had only “There is therefore now no condemnation”? I have always believed in a “sanctification process” where we are matured toward Christlikeness if we are seeking.

    Along that line of thinking, I believe that ultimately we are talking about a lifelong relationship with God that should continue to grow. When I hear some of these theologies that are “works’ oriented in any way, I think of the account of the thief on the cross. It was about faith and reliance upon Jesus for salvation. So simple.. Yet many over complicate it for their own agendas.

    Rod in Oregon 🙂

65. Rod,

    The earliest manuscripts have “There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus. The rest of the verse is omited. I think it is pretty easy to understand why the rest of the verse might have have been written in later. Check out the ASV. and the NKJV footnotes the second part of the verse. I think this is also why you hear many preachers just quote the first half of the verse.

    I would not be dogmatic about it not supposed to be there though because it also could have been left out of the earliest texts for one reason or another. The earliest texts were from the Alexandrian area, I believe it is called the Critical Text or Common New Testament Text. The King James is from the Received Text which could be more reliable. Ancient text scholars differ on this stuff so the truth is that nobody really knows for sure.

66. @Al

    Thanks for the response.

    Here’s a few problems with your line of thinking:

    1) How do you eliminate the knowledge of evil and yet retain our memories of our time here on earth?

    Either we will remember the things that happened to us, good and bad, or we won’t. If we do remember, we must necessarily have knowledge of evil. If we don’t then how are we to understand the sacrifice Christ made on the cross and why sin is a bad thing (much like Adam and Eve not knowing why sin was bad) .

    Also, tears and consternation are not the same thing. I fully expect that I will look back with some regret on not having ‘run the race’ in a better manner and yet, as Don noted some posts back, ‘there is now no condemnation’ so while I will know I could have done better, I will not be sad or overwhelmed with my failures because the reality of that statement (there is no condemnation) and the overwhelming greatness of our God will be in front of my eyes.

    2) What will be different about us vs Adam and Eve that will ensure that we will not fall into the same trap that they fell into? You could say Satan won’t be around but that’s not sufficient because Satan fell into that trap on his own. And I still maintain that we must still have the freedom to make that mistake even if we never do.

    Regarding your point about lust:
    Yes, I agree lust is an evil. I don’t agree that the only way to retain the knowledge of lust is to engage in it. I’m sure you would agree that Jesus was aware of what lust was. The Bible also tells us that Jesus was tempted in all the same ways we are. Clearly, Jesus had knowledge of lust, was tempted by it, warned us of it (Matt 5:28) and yet did not engage in it since he remained sinless. So clearly, it’s possible to know of an evil, even a mental one, but not engage in it.

    I think your concern about retaining that perversion in you is addressed by the fact that we will have new bodies, unmarred by sin and as you noted, no one is given away in marriage so our heavenly bodies won’t be subject to the same shortcomings that we currently have to deal with (Matt 26:41).

    Regardless, I find the discussion fascinating no matter which one of us is correct (or maybe neither of us are!) I’m looking forward to the day we can KNOW these things and our faith is made manifest before our eyes. God bless you, brother!

    @Don

    I think maybe the verse you are thinking of is Rev 21:4 “He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall their be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” This is immediately following the creation of the new heaven and new earth and the passing of the old. I do not think the passing of the former things includes our memories or knowledge of evil. Or maybe you are thinking of a different verse. I did some searching and that’s the closest one I could find.

67. Mark,

    It is just my opinion, but to me, you are totally assuming that we will perceive and think as we do in this bodily form on this earth.

    Of course, neither I, nor anyone living knows how the processing of information will happen in the heavenly bodies…but I think it’s at least possible that it’d be quite different than how we do it today.

    I don’t say this to get into the Humans on earth 4-10% brain usage debate vs. 100% brain usage heavenly debate…because again, we don’t know.

68. Mark,

    Rev 21:4 is not the verse I was referring to unless it reads some other way in some other translation. I was specifically thinking that it suggested no memory of the things we went through on earth or perhaps no memory of those condemned. Perhaps what I am thinking of just came out of some commentary that I read.

    Think of it, the scripture you quoted does say there will be no more sorrow (sorrow in the King James and mourning in the ASV),so we will either have no memory of things that will cause us sorrow or somehow we will not continue to regret our failings and the failings of others.

    In the Holy City can we know that evil happened and still not think about things that happened on earth? I think we will have put on the mind of Christ. Will he? Will God really remember our sins for all eternity? That would make me sad.

    I agree with ~David, we simply have no idea how we will perceive things when we are made quickening spirits. And by the way, we will not be made like Adam and Eve again. They never ate of the tree of life and they were not quickening spirits. They could fall into sin and mortality we will not be able to. I do not think we can choose evil like Satan and rebel against God since we will have put on the mind of God. It is hard to wrap your mind around all that, but that is the way I see it.

69. Thanks Don, that is a mystery. Thanks. Gives me some more study material. 🙂 so far, it has been a very good, restful vacation time with my family.

    Regarding the rest of the discussion… I have always thought that we would retain who we are, but would see the sinful reality of our past through the eyes of Christ. Instead of seeing it through eyes of shame, we would have the discernment and understanding that God provides in our new spiritual bodies. The guilt and shame gone.. We would have a clear understanding and memory of our earthly past, which would be a continued reminder of His grace and love, as well as plan of salvation. But I do not believe the capacity for sin will be there. That war will be over.

    Not that I have any specific scripture to back this idea up at the moment… 🙂 just an opinion.

    Rod in Oregon

70. So before I start, I’ll re-iterate, as I did previously, that this is all theoretical and I’m in no way attempting to be dogmatic about it so I agree nobody, including me, can speak with certainty about things that scripture does not address directly.

    It seems there are two issues here:
    1) Do we retain our memories including of sin and therefore a knowledge of evil?

    2) How do we answer the original question of why did God create the earth and Adam and Eve knowing what would ensue?

    Regarding the first item:

    a) Regardless of how our bodies work, we will either remember the things that happened or we won’t. I maintain that it’s critical that we do (our memories make us who we are, our memories inform us of why we need a Savior). I think it’s perfectly reasonable that we can remember those things and not be sad/sorrowful about it. As you (Don) noted, we will see things clearly (1 Cor 13:12) in heaven so in looking back, we’ll see things as God sees them seeing the greater purpose He had for all of it and therefore not be sorrowful about it. (I like how Rod in Oregon put it.)

    b) Don, do you really mean to suggest that if you asked God what happened on the earth, our sins included, He wouldn’t know? I totally disagree as that would seem say that God is not omniscient. He will know. Psalm 103:12 tells He removes our sin from us “as far as the east is from the west”, not that He forgets it. And the fact that He remembers them won’t change His love for us.

    Regarding the second item:

    As I said at the outset, the concept of needing a knowledge of evil (which for us finite beings could only be experienced to be understood) in order to prevent us from rejecting God after we are immortal while still retaining the freedom to reject God (a requirement of true love) is how I answer the question of ‘why did God create things knowing what would happen’. Is it right? Don’t know. But it satisfies me for now. If anyone has any other answers to that question, I’m all ears.

    @Don, if you find that verse you were referring to, let me know.

71. Mark,

    Addressing the first question, I suspect that we will remember all these things (and things our minds currently block), but we will do from our God’s perspective (which, I think, will mitigate the pain – how, I don’t know).

    The reason I think this is because my memories, a record of my experiences, are very much a part of me. For good or ill, to remove these memories would be to damage who I am: at least, that how it seems to me.

    I think this is an aspect of His redeeming creation. It’s what I have in mind when I’ve written that He will turn our scars and blemishes into beautiful re-birthmarks.

    Addressing the second question, I think we God created “the earth and Adam and Eve” for a number of reasons:

    1. God is creative. We inherit our ability and desire to create from God. Perhaps we can relate to the is best when we experience the urge to create for the simple joy of it? (see Genesis 1, 2, Ephesians 2:10)

    2. God wants to give and receive love. (This is one of the great themes of scripture.)

    3. We (humans) are part of a large morality-drama playing-out in the universe. (see Job)

    4. We will be examples of His incomparable grace in ages to come. Certainly this speaks of the Church, but I bet that it also includes all of redeemed humanity to some degree. (see Ephesians 2:6-7)

    5. There could easily be other reasons that we cannot even imagine yet! (see Isaiah 55:9, I Corinthians 2:9)

    (The scriptures I mentioned above are by no means the only ones that could have been cited; they’re just ones that came immediately to mind!)

72. Just some thoughts…

    Good and evil already existed in the universe; Lucifer had already became Satan. When God set the rule for Adam and Eve, the simple act of stating the rule (don’t eat of the tree) and specifying the consequence (if you do, you will die), drew a line between God (obedience to God) and evil (disobedience). SO, in a sense, they already had the knowledge of good and evil – *intellectually*.

    What God didn’t want them to have was the knowledge of good and evil – *by experience*.

    Could it be that when Satan enticed Eve by saying she/they would be come like god, it was an ironic, deceptive way of saying that they would become like the “god of this world,” Satan?

    Adam and Eve lost their innocent-likeness to our God (who is consistently good in character), whilst becoming like Satan, who possessed the knowledge of good and evil, by his personal experience.

73. Hi Mark.

    Mark Said… “How do you eliminate the knowledge of evil and yet retain our memories of our time here on earth?”

    The only “memories” that need to be retained, (or we should like to retain) is the knowledge of our beloved and the good experiences we shared with them. And of course The knowledge of our submission to God. Think about this… The KNOWLEDGE of GOD in us… is the only thing that keeps us from being an utterly dark creature. Its what lead us back to HIM. In the end… It (the knowledge of God and his ways) are really the ONLY knowledge we NEED. His TRUTH, His WAYS, an abundant eternal LIFE with our Lord.

    Mark said… “What will be different about us vs Adam and Eve that will ensure that we will not fall into the same trap that they fell into? You could say Satan won’t be around but that’s not sufficient because Satan fell into that trap on his own. And I still maintain that we must still have the freedom to make that mistake even if we never do”

    We will already have made that mistake. No need to make it over & over again. 1+1=2
    I believe that Satan not being around is significant. But not the most important thing. The most import thing, is that we embraced God AFTER our terrible freewill choice and after our Fall. His Gracious mercy in providing His own son, as a way back to Him is absolute LOVE. We have a choice. It seems you have caught yourself in that wheel of expecting something different from 1+1=2 Believe me Mark I have thought on what your thinking. I said to myself what if in eternity I reach a point of great knowledge and wisdom and attain supernatural abilities. Will “I” be like Satan then? To aspire to be “as” God? I don’t think so because all we need in order to determine that… is already within us NOW. Your mind is already free and without boundaries. Right here right now is where YOU make that decision. Period. For me it became Illogical to keep going round and round. I got off that wheel. Being like Satan is basically saying I will do as “I” whilst, versus submitting yourself to God’s Will ALWAYS. Mark I believe you have ALREADY made that decision. Your saved bro! What could we possibly discover when we step into eternity that will then make us reverse that decision? God is immutable. He’s not going to change.. upon which we would then change our mind. LOVE is LOVE is LOVE consistent… never changing. I guess if one does not completely trust that God has it all covered, it can get maddening… and round and round it goes. And I was there. I just decided to trust in God, that I will be safe from that, in him. I know that I have already been down that road. No need to revisit it again & again… no matter what.

74. Frankly, I don’t want my memories. I can’t stand them. I prefer to live in the moment. It’s the only thing that keeps me positive. Legacy is for dead and dying people. I don’t need concern myself with legacy, since I can continue on. I could care less about looking back.

75. Mark, and everyone else

    I have been away from the computer so I could not respond until now.

    I guess my point is that Christians are covered with the blood of Jesus so God does not see our sin not that he can’t if He wanted to look past the blood atonement. Look at this way, all that are not in the Lambs book of life are judged by what they did and then they have to depart from God. So after the judgment there really would be no point to bring up sin in people ever again. Perhaps God chooses to forget sins and if he choose to do so nobody can make Him remember them.

    I do not have much more to add on this topic. Let me just use this illustration. We are very much like computer software (soul) that has a virus (sin) embedded within. Once the virus is removed and our software is run on the super computer platform (quickening spirit) those dealing with us are not going to even think about a virus that was in us and was removed while it was running on a first generation computer (with a defective virus checker to boot).

    For what it is worth to others,

    Good and evil do exist in the universe but I do not think evil will exist in the universe after the restoration of perfection. Unless one thinks the Lake of Fire is in the universe.

    As an aside, Stephen thinks I am being unfair because I blocked two of his posts. His latest main point is his claim that once saved always saved doctrine is false and damnable doctrine. You see, Stephen still wants us to know that anyone that claims to be a Christian but sins is not saved.

    I think anyone that thinks Christians lose their salvation when they sin are not going to add anything useful to this post. Stephen really needs to read my commenting policy. I already told him in a prior comment that I am through with answering any such nonsense.

76. Our eternal future

    Jeremiah 31:34B …they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

    Yes, this was spoken of Israel but the point is that God says he will remember their sin no more. Whichever way we look at that I believe God means what he says, therefore take it as a fact, sin will no longer be remembered by God.

    The Apostle Paul wrote “Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus” Phillipians 3:13-14 Paul says it is possible to put the past in the past even while alive in this body of flesh. What chance then of the past invading our eternal future? NONE!

    We carry this body of death as long as we live but that old creature is eventually going into the grave with the new creation being resurrected into the presence of our God.

    And 2Corinthians 5:17 “Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.” The question we should ask ourselves is this; is it the old creature that is going to inhabit eternity with our Lord, or is it the new? Will anything of that old be retained? It is my belief that the judgement seat of Christ will be the last time our sinfulness will be raised or remembered.

77. I think that when the Lord said, “My ways are not your ways”…it’s not that there’s some mystery of information being held back…I think that the human mind in its present (earthly) form is incapable of truly understanding the heavenly ways.

    Jesus told the man hanging on the cross next to him (Luke 23:42-43) 42 And he was saying, “Jesus, remember me when You come into Your kingdom!” 43 And He said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.”

    …does anyone really have any idea how great that paradise will be ? I don’t, but I know it’s going to be beyond what I today can fathom.

78. All,

    Thanks for all the responses. I’m enjoying the conversation even if we are coming to different conclusions. I think the saying is “In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity”. This discussion falls into that ‘non-essentials’ category. Interesting to talk about and we can wrong without eternal consequences.

    @Al,

    We can’t even maintain memories of our beloved ones without remembering their sin because they’re sinful too. The alternative is that we lose a large part of what makes us ‘us’ (ie our memories) and we wander around wondering why Jesus has some nail holes in his hands and feet. Sorry but I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.

    And no there’s nothing we could possibly discover in eternity that would cause us to reverse that decision. I’m not arguing that we would/will. In fact, I’m certain no one will but the fact remains that love is only truly love if your free to choose something/someone else. We won’t. No one who is saved will, but we’ll have the freedom to (and it won’t be tempting in the least because we’ll know the terrible consequences of it. Adam and Eve didn’t.)

    @Don,

    Yes, I agree that certainly God will not ‘remember’ our sins and hold us accountable for them again. I’m not sure if I implied otherwise. If so, my apologies.

    I also agree evil will not exist (and I subscribe to the definition that evil is the lack of a good so it’s not a thing but the lack of a thing. The analogy I’ve heard in the past is a car and rust which I think works well.) I still think we’ll know what evil is (experentially and we won’t lose that knowledge because everything has been made new and perfect)

    @Brian from Oz,
    Good verse but I think the word ‘remember’ here means ‘hold them accountable for their sin all over again’ not the literal act of recalling something that occurred. Clearly, God’s omniscience demands that He is able to even if He doesn’t do it. And really the question is whether we will retain our memory (and further, our knowledge of evil).

    I agree that there will be no point in looking back and dwelling on those things as Paul says in the passage you quoted but it doesn’t mean we lose the ability too.

    I agree with you in terms of God remembering our sin at the Judgment Seat of Christ. I don’t see any reason why He would ‘remember’ it or bring it up again.

    @Brett,

    Good points, especially #5 🙂 but I don’t think they answer the question I have struggled with and that I think others have struggled with in the past which is: Why did God create the universe with even the possiblity of sin? Surely He could have destroyed Satan before creating the earth and Adam and Eve and avoided all the pain and heartache. Surely He could have not placed the tree of the knowledge of good and evil in the garden or just removed the restriction and allowed them to eat from it like any other tree and avoided all the pain and heartache. He could of given us a world in which Adam and Eve would not have been tempted and where they continued to live for ever in paradise. For some reason, God chose to allow things to happen this way knowing full well that Adam and Eve would fail and the terrible consequences of sin. And because He chose it, we can be sure it’s for the best. The sin, the pain, the heartache is serving some purpose. The question is what purpose does it serve?

    The answer I came up with is that it’s important for us to have knowledge of evil and as you said ‘by experience’ not just an intellectual knowledge. I’m not saying that’s the definitive answer but it is one I find to be logical and consistent with scripture (and frankly, I haven’t really heard any other answers). Does anyone have a better answer as to why God chose this path versus preventing sin from occurring in the first place?

79. Hi Mark,

    You wrote to me specifically the following…

    —-We can’t even maintain memories of our beloved ones without remembering their sin because they’re sinful too. The alternative is that we lose a large part of what makes us ‘us’ (ie our memories) and we wander around wondering why Jesus has some nail holes in his hands and feet. Sorry but I think we’ll have to agree to disagree on this one.—
    You point about Jesus and the nail holes, would be accepted in this discussion as a valid point to contemplate, only IF in FACT you knew that our Lord appears in this way ETERNALLY. Which you don’t. So we’ll have to call that what it is…compete conjecture. Regarding losing a “large part of our memories” Look around and you’ll see that there are millions if not billion of human beings trying to do that right now, through Legal & Illegal drugs, through Alcohol, through sex addictions. Personally I don’t know what positives there would be with remembering our sins and others sins in HEAVEN. As I already told you… No Tempter in Heaven, Nothing evil to CHOOSE from. Once again… been there done that. SAVED. God is satisfied that we made OUR FREEWILL CHOICE to REPENT and surrender to him. So the scenario that you hoped for (no sin in the first place) is now possible and it does not deny Truth, Justice and the freedom to choose or deny God . 1+1=2 again.

    —And no there’s nothing we could possibly discover in eternity that would cause us to reverse that decision. I’m not arguing that we would/will. In fact, I’m certain no one will but the fact remains that love is only truly love if your free to choose something/someone else. We won’t. No one who is saved will, but we’ll have the freedom to (and it won’t be tempting in the least because we’ll know the terrible consequences of it. Adam and Eve didn’t.)—
    Not choosing to cheat on your spouse because you fear she’ll kill you in the night is really NOT choosing to stay with her out of LOVE. I do not choose Jesus for fear of damnation – although it is a scary. I choose Jesus because I LOVE his ways.
    In this statement you are also dangerously close to suggesting that God was not fair to Adam & Eve.
    Mark I have in the past contemplated your theory above. In my mind I came up with the scenario that as soon as one comes close to freely choosing something sinful…. SUDDENLY a great sense of fear and the knowledge the result of the sin including its consequence would fill that soul. That soul would then shriek back and the Lord would once again balm that memory. A safeguard of sorts. While still allowing one’s mind to wander into darkness. I don’t think so though. Like I said… Price for my freewill choice that led to sin is paid in Full

    Redeemed!

    1+1=2
    Again.

80. Hi Again Mark 🙂

    You asked: “Why did God create the universe with even the possibility of sin?”

    I really do think that this was necessary in order for love to exist. If there is no possibility of sin, then there is no possibility that someone could rebel against God or be otherwise unloving.

    It seems to me like the difference between “loving” a doll (that cannot return love or affection), and loving a person who can. God could make the rocks praise Him, but He can’t make me do from a heart of affection and gratitude…

    …BUT, if that’s truly that case, then that brings the other problem into focus: what could keep us from sinning in the future once our sin-nature is removed? I’ve agonized over this one too (and others who don’t thought I was being ridiculous). If it’s going to be possible for me to sin in Heaven, then I would just as soon God dispose of me now! I don’t know how it will be possible for us to have free will and yet not sin somewhere again in eternity. *Somehow* this will be possible and the apparent paradox will be resolved.

    God values faith above our value of gold. Faith is applied trust in Him, and it’s one major way we demonstrate our love for Him. And I think that God values love above faith, and that’s a big part of why He took/takes such a risk and such horrific consequences coming from giving His creatures the power to choose freely.

    In a (somewhat) related thing, as I grow ever more weary of my body, my sin-nature, and this world, I realize that my soul simply isn’t ready/fit for Heaven: Heaven is way, WAY beyond “too good for me,” and I pretty sure that I would lose my sanity before the end of my first century if something more than simply removing my sin-nature is not done for me first. I’m reminded that Paul writes that our bodies must be transformed from mortal to immortal so that they will be able to exist in the world beyond ours here. My soul *very much* needs this change too! I’ll be very hard-put to manage even a decade more here as I am. (HOW DID the early people handle lifetimes of hundreds of years???)…

    When His Day comes, I have the sense (now) that I want to curl-up in a private little dimension somewhere and “turn-off” for a millenia or so, I’m *so weary*. BUT, would God give us a new toy WITHOUT batteries??? Hardly!!! I bet that on that Day, *ALL* our weariness will evaporate like mist, in the sheer energy from just the joy of being in His presence! 🙂

    Come Lord Jesus, please come soon!

81. Oh, also Mark, I *do* think that our Lord will turn the fact that we have known evil by experience into something special, something important:

    Could it have something to do with our “judging angels?”

    Could it be intertwined with the idea that we who are so lowly now will be raised about the angles?

    Not that we should sin more so God will be more glorified, BUT the fact is, He will make us and the rest of creation better than it was (somehow) because of this.

    Our God is *extravagant* as He proves to all that He can take the worst of the worst and weave with His goodness into a tapestry of beauty and glory beyond comprehension. No matter how hard sin tries to corrupt and destroy, it will be utterly defeated by Him.

82. No eye has seen,
    no ear has heard,
    no mind has CONCEIVED
    what God has prepared for those who love him

83. Mark you ask the question “Does anyone have a better answer as to why God chose this path versus preventing sin from occurring in the first place?”

    The doctrine on the Angelic Conflict may give some answers. I have done such a study with someone else in the past and it was no light study. I am not qualified or energetic enough to try simplifying this doctrine.

    There are MP3 downloads available at the site given below,

    http://www.gbible.org/index.php?proc=fea&pid=2

    This author claims “The angelic conflict answers many basic questions about life, such as – “Why was man created? Why sin? Why is there chaos on earth? Why is there so much suffering? Why did our Lord Jesus Christ have to go to the cross?”

    Have fun

84. To all,

    Those who inherit the Holy City are born of the Spirit and are new creations in Christ. Again, we will reflect God in eternity, we are made in His image. One cannot make a butterfly back into a worm. Jesus is one with the Father and we will be one with Jesus and the Holy Spirit will be all in all. There will be perfect unity. Former things will have passed away.

    Why did God allow evil in the first place that would bring suffering to creation and even to Himself? Apparently God decided that suffering was the way to make useable pots, like a potter puts a clay pot through the fire before it can be used. Even our Creator God suffered for us to bring us to to bring us to salvation and through His own suffering we come to know and love the Creator. The need for suffering is certainly a mystery but apparently God is using it in His elect.

85. @Al

    I’m glad these deep theological question have such simple answers for you. You would be wise to recognize that you are engaging in as much conjecture as I am, if not more. I have repeatedly allowed for being wrong in my statements whereas you have repeatedly made the statement 1+1=2 as if your assertions are so self-evident they couldn’t possibly be wrong.

    I haven’t found your arguments to be compelling (or self-evident) and clearly the same is true for you so I don’t think there’s much more to be gained by continuing the discussion. We’ll resolve it in eternity. God bless you, brother.

    @Brett
    “Come Lord Jesus, please come soon!” – Amen to that!

    @Brian from Oz
    Thanks for the info. I’ll look into that. I can see how examining that issue could provide additional insight.

86. God bless you as well Brother Mark.

    Just to be clear… the 1+1=2 is not intended as some sort of arrogance on my part ; as if to say “hey its simple man – don’t YOU get it 1+1=2 ” NOT AT ALL.

    I apologize if it comes across that way. What I mean by it, is to say that God has this perfect plan for us; that includes Freewill, Sin & Redemption. And that its been played out perfectly in each and everyone of us ” So that we don’t have to keep repeating this process with supposed new variables. All variables have been included. All choices have been exhausted. When we accept that each and everyone one of us goes through this process (this fire as Don put it) a fire specifically tailored for us personally. Yet in that fire; “his Grace is sufficient” we have everything we need to make the Good and Godly decision to ”choose God” or to turn away from him.

    Of course all this doesn’t exactly speak to the specific matter of sin being remembered. Personally if I have to remember my sin’s or someone else’s sins in heaven… I’d rather hope for annihilation.

    Grace of our Lord be with you.

87. I have so enjoyed your comments related to the Christmas Story as Don has told it.
    I have one question. Is the ‘Begotten Son’ in John 3:16 and the ‘only begotten son: in
    Genesis 22 21 (about Isaac) refering to begotten from birth or death? I suppose it means at His birth, but we know that Abraham had many other sons, but Isaac was the only one begotten from ‘death’. Also the King James Bible doesn’t use the term ‘begotten in Genesis, but some newer versions do. I was just wondering what the word ‘begotten really means. I was taught it was by birth.

88. Korni,

    I am not seeing what you are talking about. Genesis 22:21 is talking about the offspring of Abraham brother.

    The scriptures make it clear that the Son of God always existed. He was Begotten and not made. In other words, he was manifested in His creation but he is not part of the creation.

    Issac is a OT type with certain similitudes of the Messiah.

    The word Begotten just means something was brought forth. If a person had a birth one might say that she begot a baby but I also can beget a comment.

89. The unsaved need Jesus.
    Telling them that they need repentance is showing them love.
    With repentance, we value what Jesus has done for us by coming to earth
    in the form of man and paying the price for our sin with his blood.
    In heaven, we will be without sin.

90. Don, this was my last year participating in “Christmas” I have many reasons (most all scripturally) not to participate in it any longer…. And only (worldly one’s) to continue to do so. So, we have decided this because of God’s word ,and we have decided on it as a family… we will not press our beliefs on others; however If someone should ask us why we stopped… we can then have that talk.

    This wasn’t a spur of the moment thing. Many years ago we stopped the deceitful ”tradition” of Santa. Last year we jettisoned the Christmas Tree. This year I just had no desire to participate in something that the “world” embraces. Being born-again…. we keep Christ everyday. We have communion everyday…as we are commanded to do… we break bread and drink of the vine (wine or Grape juice). We give thanks and keep remembrance of he who died for us everyday. We know the Lord within us; by Grace He established our faith – we know His forgiveness, His hope, His mercy, His Love, He is our Joy… we are so grateful to have our Lord abide in us…EVERYDAY. Glory to God alone… and Forever!

    So, your probably asking yourself why I am telling you this.
    Not complicated really… because, regardless of what you might say (if you are against this decision) I will not turn back. Yet I tell you this so that you know me better… who I am… and that your opinion (as you are a learned man of scripture) will provide me with an objective reply (backed by scripture I hope)

    I look forward to your response.

    Al

91. Al,

    There is freedom in Christ to do what is right. It sounds biblical to me and If this helps your walk with the Lord than who am I to oppose it?

    Sorry to disappoint, but I see no reason to quote you scriptures about doing what is biblical.

92. Thank you brother!

93. Thanks, Al. It is rare to see another who has denounced this holiday.

    I can’t, in good conscience, celebrate my precious Saviour’s birth on the occultic birthdate of Tammuz. It just isn’t right to use the ways of the heathen in decorating our homes for a holiday that is man-made and not God ordained. The scriptures that have been used to justify the celebration on this “day” make Paul agree with the Church of Rome that one can “christianize” paganism and I know that cannot be!

    But, I do want God to bless everyone here in all that they do for His kingdom, by His power and for His glory! amen~

94. Sherry, Jesus was born in the Fall on the Feast of Tabernacles but depending on the year of His birth Jesus may very well have been conceived in Mary by the Holy Spirit on Christmas and so actually come into the world on the very date that most Christian celebrate as His birth.
    http://www.keyway.ca/htm2005/20051225.htm
    If true, then that date is worthy of Christian celebration but each of us should do what they believe is right.

95. It’d be nice if it were true! Its kinda lonely for us who don’t celebrate X Mass because of its “christianized” pagan traditions. Well, that and its not ordained by God to do so. I’ve heard that Jews and early Christians didn’t celebrate birthdays but only one’s death date. Its hard to find fellow believers like myself concerning this holiday because their teachings are always mixed in with false teachings like keeping the Sabbath Day and saying that Jesus will not hear our prayers unless we call Him Yeshua. 🙄 When we share some of their links to show what we believe then we are fruitcakes unless we attach a disclaimer, lol!

    The true Sun of Righteousness conceived on the date of the sun-god’s birth-I like that! Touche to you, Tammuz, you god who’s not a god! 😆

96. The snowstorms in Israel a week or so ago should put paid to the belief that Jesus was born in December. The shepherds had come in from the fields to worship him.

    Any one for frozen lamb?

97. Woo hoo! Jesus conceived at Christmas…wow.what a lovely and uplifting thought.

    I personally just decided years ago that as a day set aside to honor the Lord Jesus, regardless of why the date was moved, was good enough for me.I would celebrate it with other Christians in the fall, too if someone wanted to set up a celebration.Or every day of the year.

    I truly think that many christians are so dismayed by the garish Saturnalia aspects of Christmas,they just want to run and hide. I get that too.

    But I’m going to wish everyone a Merry Christmas anyway.

    Faith

98. Thanks for your faithful service to the Lord Jesus Christ. For continuing to proclaim the gospel year in and year out!

99. Don and Stephen, Thanks for the banter, this thanks is especially directed towards Don for being an inclusive moderator and not deleting or blocking those with opposing views. Such dialogue brings out the truth and may speak to someone having similar struggles. I believe I was born again, by grace through faith when I called upon Jesus to save me when I was presented with the Gospel during the Summer of 1995. For sure I’ve sinned since then, and I was very far from the Lord, that is I lacked interest in the things of God, until I was at the lowest of the low a few years ago and tearfully repented of my sins and the way I had been living and hurtful choices I had made. Not long after I found myself amongst Beachy Amish Mennonites and I’m pretty screwed up right now in my mind about my salvation and have pretty much given up on finding a like minded body of believers. I am only holding on and looking forward to the day I will be drawn to Jesus at death or Rapture. The mennonite position of divorce and remarriage has particularly got me down, because I am remarried and have a daughter. In general, and this was something I noticed before I was living in the perpetual adultery of remarriage, I believe the mennonites are steeped in traditions of men and unimportant irrelevant ideas about how to dress, which God couldn’t care less about. And they can’t see any other way, they can’t even read the bible and get a correct understanding of the millenium. They pray in their services, like pretty much every other Laodicean today, how good it is to be in the house of God on the Lord’s day and many other unscriptural heretical notions, albeit small. Still, a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. I believe there are many who attend church who are just as unsaved as the most outspoken hater of Christ. And the pitfall of salvation by works and limited atonement is no joy to hear or bear. Please pray for God’s will to be done in the lives of real brothers and sisters and that the lost will be reached for the Glory of God.

100. Al & Sherry, Have you found a good group of Christians to fellowship with? I sure haven’t and I’m on the same page as you. I cringe when I see Mass of Christ trees in the foyer of IFB churches and cringe even more when I hear the preaching which justifies participation in the Mass of Christ. I just don’t understand it. But I only have contact with a few folks, mostly online or by email who feel the same way. Even Beachy Amish Mennonites celebrate the Mass of Christ. I was pretty shocked because they “left” the catholic church. Menno Simons is no doubt rolling in his grave because of today’s adherents to his tenants – then again, “I am of Paul, I am of Menno Simons…” See 1 Corinthians 3:4-6 KJV for the non-toungue in cheek verses. 😛

101. Daniel,

     I agree, but I do block those with opposing views if they are attacking Christianity, want to give clearly heretical viewpoints or are off topic.

102. Daniel,

     Your misunderstanding the word Christmas. The word could just mean Christ is sent. It really was connected with the celebration or festival of the Messiah’s incarnation. It is said to have been celebrated by the Church keeping the ordnance of the Lord’s supper and mass may have gotten its name from the dismissal (mass) of the Church to go tell the good news to the world. Christmas is the celebration of Christ coming into the world. Christians using the word mas are not talking about the heretical ritual of sacrificing Christ on the altar daily that Catholics call the Mass.

103. Daniel, on Facebook there’s a group called Christians Against Christmas that I recently joined. Only a few want to judaize and spew their 7th day beliefs. No matter what “Mass” means we do not celebrate the birth of Christ for the reasons of it having “christianized” pagan roots (roots that precede Christ’s birth)which the Lord God tells us expressly not to do, one scripture, of many, being Deuteronomy 12:30. We thank God for sending His Son to earth but we do not set up anything pagan in our homes nor observe His birth in any special manner on Dec. 24th, the birth date of the sun-god. It is the very same Baal worship that God abhors and the very same syncretism that brought God’s judgement on Israel. Even if everyone were to celebrate His birth on what many have calculated as being on September 11th we would not do so as it would still be a man-made holiday and not commanded or ordained by God to celebrate.

104. Sherry,

     All nations will celebrate the Feast of Tabernacles each year after Jesus returns and that most likely was the date of the birth of Jesus Christ. However, there is no compulsion for Gentiles to keep days in the Church age. On the other hand, there is no condemnation for those in the Church that keep days either if they do it in faith. We are not under the covenant given to the Jews with the ceremonial law.

     Also the Church Christianizing what were pagan holidays is not the same as Christians worshiping that demonic god. Lets not put stumbling blocks before those who in all faith are keeping what they believe are Christian holidays and honoring the Lord.

105. Don, Why do you delete my posts?

106. Kevin,

     I did not delete your 8 or 9 latest comments. They never were posted at all. All comments are monitored before posting. Your comments have not not been posted because they give misleading information and if I answered everything that you have wrong in your very long comments it would take hours and then you would just come back with other arguments to waste my time on a post that is about Christmas and not Seventh Day theology.

     If you want to believe in aberrant seventh day doctrine that is your right but it it is my right not to post comments that are going to confuse Christian, put stumbling blocks before sincere seekers of the truth, and get the whole reason for me writing this article off topic and on a seventh day rabbit trail.

     In what you said in those comments, you act like your positions on keeping or not keeping certain days have not already been addressed by thousands of other Christian commentators already. We are not going recreate the wheel here. You are not going to argue theology that I am convinced is aberrant on the comments section of my Blog.

     And no, I did not misunderstand Paul as you said. You bring up a passage that actually argues that the keeping of this feast day is spiritual to make it sound like Paul was actually telling Christian to keep that Jewish feast day. Then you use that aberrant interpretation to justify additional aberrant interpretations of scripture.

     I really have better things to do with my time than argue against the thousands of people that would just love to use this blog as a platform to present their aberrant theologies to confuse Christians minds.

     Read my commenting policy and you would know why your comments have not been posted. Even your duplicate sendings and you asking me why your comments do not appear is a volition of my commenting policy. The appropriate place for that is in an email to me, but if you read the disclaimer before my email address you would also know that I am not going to get into endless arguments about theology. Over the years I have found out that arguing theology with legalistic people is like spiting into the wind.

     Frankly, I have never told anyone that they cannot keep the Sabbath, as you claimed in those comments. However, Christians like me believe that those living in the Spirit keep the spiritual intent of the Sabbath rest daily. The spiritual do not fulfill them by going back to shadows and types.

     http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/The%20dark%20side%20of%20Christanity.htm

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