The Book of Enoch comes up now and then in Bible prophecy. So you might want to be aware of the arguments presented in and about this book. You have to be very careful here because some people will use the Book of Enoch for actually proving that aliens exist.
Alien Resistance and other Christian websites like them say that these beings will be nothing more than fallen angels setting the world up for great deception.
The theory by those who run the Alien Resistance website is that there will be a great deception in the last days carried out by fallen angels who will pass themselves off to the world as aliens from another world or dimension. They say these fallen Angels also produced the Nephilim that we are told about in Genesis in pre-flood days.
Ill let you decide what is true. Even today, if you talk about angels producing offspring with women the majority of Christians will look at you like you have two heads because they see conflict in one misunderstood verse (Mt 22:30). Never mind that a literal reading of Genesis makes what happened quite clear. The popular Sons of Seth Theory that almost everyone in Christianity teaches is probably just plan wrong.
One thing for certain, is that you will not hear about these things in mainstream Christianity. So if there is truth here, Satan did a pretty good job of covering it up leaving almost everyone on earth wide open for a staged alien great deception.
I believe the fallen angels did create the Nephilim on the earth. It is not just the Book of Enoch that tells us that angels came to earth and had offspring with women. Josephus and other ancient writings also tell us that happened. Even so, I do not know how much truth is in the manuscripts of the Book of Enoch about pre-flood events. This whole subject is great food for thought, but it can be a great diversion and even lead into deception if you are not careful and grounded in the scriptures .
For more information on this topic you might explore the Alien Resistance website. It is a Christian site that primary deals with the fallen angels and the UFO connection
Here is a link to the Book of Enoch.
I have a more recent post on Enoch on my new blog where comments are being allowed
Hi Don,
The whole subject of the Nephilim is very facinating. I , like you believe there was an invasion from the angelic realm into the material as denoted in Genesis 6. The terms B’nai Elohim (sons of God) as used in Genesis is the same term used in other parts of the OT (Book of Job to be one) to denote angels. And you are correct that the writings of the Book of Enoch and Josephus follow the same thought that angelic beings interjected themselves in the affairs of men in a some sort of reproductive manner.
We may not understand all of this matter considering the giants or men of renown, but just because we don’t understand it does not mean it did not happen.One must consider the report of the 12 spies considering the giants, Og, the King of Bashan (Duet 3:11), and Goliath of Gath and acknowledge that there were these gigantic beings.
One can read the OT writings about these giants and can see they were robust, mighty men of war; like Goliath wearing heavy armor and wielding a huge sword. Their dimensions go from 9 feet to 13 feet tall depending on one’s interpetation of a cubic. Compare this to the known world’s tallest man Robert Wadlow , who was 8′ 11″ due to a pituitary condition, could barely hold himself on his own legs and died at 22 years old in 1940. One must give creedence to the fact that something beyond the norm must be going on in the OT if they believe the infallibility of God’s word.
Maybe there will be a delusion that these beings will appear to be aliens who are trying to help us to the next step of “evolution”. Maybe this could be part of the strong delusion (2 Thes 2:11). Who knows?
The point is that we should carefully consider this and search the scriptures carefully. Though we may not understand it fully, that does not mean this fallen angelic invasion did not happen. Personally, it makes the Great Deluge of Noah’s day make much more sense.
There’s some information on the canonicity of the book of Enoch in its wikipedia article. The Ethopian church accepts it as divinely inspired. Personally, I tend to think that there’s good reason to say it should have been included in the Bible. Some NT scripture actually appears to be referring to the book of Enoch, and it was a book that the Jews in Jesus’ days were familiar with. Some say that the title “Son of Man” was inspired by the book of Enoch. Also, Jude makes reference to a group of angels that are bound with chains until the Final Judgement. These angels must be the group of fallen angels that Genesis 6 and the book of Enoch speak about – the ones who followed their lust and defiled themselves with the daughters of men, thereby creating the heroes of old, men of renown.
I don’t believe there was a conspiracy to deliberately exclude the book of Enoch. Some Church Fathers did accept it as canonical. I don’t see any harm in reading the book of Enoch but I remain cautious just to be on the safe side. I think we should be careful with basing doctrine upon this book. The sixty-six books of the current [protestant] Bible contain all the essential. I suppose the book of Enoch didn’t make it precisely for that reason. Not because it’s necessarily wrong but rather because it’s not essential.
Kevneto, you say the Great Deluge scenario makes more sense. But why is it that right before the Bible tells us about God’s punishment for mankind, we actually learn all about these fallen angels, their wicked offspring and the evil race of men in those days. Why is it that only Noah and his family got saved? Part of the reason why God decided to let Noah live and that He wanted to wipe mankind from the face of the earth, I believe, is that mankind had been so affected by these fallen angels that it may not even have been fully human anymore.
I think the Flood and the account of the fallen angels in Genesis 6 (plus the book of Enoch) are strongly linked to one another. If the last of days will be like the days before God destroyed the world by the Flood, then I think that we will see a similar kind of deception by fallen angels, probably disguised as some alien race. In any case, I don’t think they will be identifying themselves as gods as they may have done to the ancients. Mankind is growing more hostile to the notion of the existence of God or several gods but a race of an advanced civilization of alien saviors would make sense to them.
Nice to see some good comments on this Book of Enoch subject.
I read the Book of Enoch that is in English a while back. It started out real good and if stayed that way throughout the book I would be much more inclined to believe it was inspired. But as you get into it the book the writings get bazaar to say the least.
I am no expert on this but maybe someone else is. Is it possible that the manuscripts we have today are not the same book of Enoch as the one that was in common usage in Jesus time? I guess what I am wondering since the book started out so good but then seemed to drift into mindless babbling, is it possible that the Book of Enoch might have been based on the real book of Enoch but later most of it got corrupted?
It seems to me that I read that Enoch was rejected because the copies the church had at the time of the Canon were already totally corrupted. I also know the book has manuscripts in different languages but I also heard that the content in each manuscript is quite different.
Actually I think Kevneto and you are on the exact same page on this. He implies that the Great Deluge makes more sense because it occurred because all except Noah and his children already had been genetically corrupted. I believe he is saying that is why God sent the flood and the Enoch account of genetic corruption makes the flood and the killing of all flesh make more sense. I agree with you both on this.
If one realizes that the deception in the last days will be so great that all will be deceived even the elect if that were possible. The Delusion or deception is much more than a Muslim Antichrist. It can be no less then fallen angels coming with a message of deception that the whole world will want to believe because they rejected the love of the truth.
Just say tomorrow space ships landed on earth and supernatural beings came out and told the world that man was placed on earth by them to evolute to become like them. They then tell us they left their God leader on earth to help guide us and he has reincarnated himself through many historical religious and political figures through time and is now the present head of the world. Then they say man is now ready for his final evolutionary step and he will have a genetic leap forwarded to become like them if we becomes part of the planetary brotherhood by taking the Mark of their leader How many people in the world would reject their message? After all, most of them fell for the nonsense of Obama and he is not even in the same league. I am not saying it is going to happen that way. It will probably be something even more deceptive.
Nasrani,
I would agree with your points and could speculate that this intrusion from the angelic realm could have poluted the human line so much that God had to destroy all living things (except Noah and his family) before everything was infected through this genetic manipulation. Again, I am just speculating but there is something going on here besides the old Sons of Seth-Daughters of Cain scenario.
As far as current times, I do not believe in aliens from other worlds. I think people are seeing fallen angels masquerading as these space beings. Maybe these beings will pull off some “cosmic” grand deception. They might protray God as a bad alien who is going to invade the earth and how mankind must stop him. On the other hand, I don’t discount that fallen men in their arrogance might actually acknowldege who God is, but refuse to submit to His authority. They might just delude themselves into thinking they could actually prevent the return of Jesus or defeat the Mighty God. Utter folly!
GBU
Okay, thanks for clarifying that Kevneto. From what you wrote I took it that you considered these two events to be more or less separate. But obviously you agree that they’re interconnected.
I never quite understood how people can come up with these fancy theories about these fallen angels actually being mere men. That never made any sense to me. I think they insist they are not fallen angels because the implications of accepting that there was indeed an angelic rebellion by a number that mingled with mankind and produced giants, are too far-reaching. It would mean that much of what we have been taught about history is false.
I’m very inclined to believe that many ancient pagan gods, demi-gods and ancient astronomical myths, are related to these fallen angels. Many civilizations speak of an “alien” (not necessarily in the sci-fi sense of the word) race that taught them astronomy, gave them the calendar and introduced agriculture. I have a theory that the demi-gods may have been half-man and half-demon.
In the case of the Egyptians, we have the three pyramids of Gizah and a couple of other 4th Dynasty pyramids aligned with the constellation of Orion which was known as a giant (demi-god?) hunter to the Greeks and as Osiris (said to be the first true Egyptian pharaoh). The so-called “air” shaft in the Great Pyramid’s King Chamber points at the Belt of Orion and the shaft in the Queen’s Chamber points at the star Sirius which was known as Isis, Osris’ sister and companion, to the Ancient Egyptians.
In Meso-America we find that the ancient Olmecs, like their successors (Mayas, Aztecs, etc.), believed in a foreign race that brought them civilization and science. The god known as Quetzalcoatl to the Aztecs, Kukalkan to the Mayas, and Viracocha to the Incas, is often represented as a feathered serpent. He and his companions were depicted as bearded Caucasian men. The Incas in the Andes had similar myths and that explains why at first they thought the white and bearded Spanish conquistadors were the gods who had returned as their myths had prophesized.
There is virtually not a single people that does not have a Flood myth. Some will claim that the Biblical and Vedic accounts were taken from Gilgamesh, but then how will these people explain the Japanese myths about underwater kingdoms (large and possibly man-made structures have been found off the Okinawan shores), or the various East Asian, African, Pacific and Native American accounts?
But I digress… Those who deny that there was an angelic invasion should not forget that the Bible speaks of giants after the Flood that were living in Canaan and we even have the names of these peoples and a few desciptions about such individuals. Why did God order the Israelites to wipe out the inhabitants? Would He still have ordered them to be destroyed if they had not defiled themselves with demonic practices? I think not.
There is also the Kebra Negast in Ethopia which is mainly about the Queen of Sheba, and chapter 100 is devoted to the angelic invasion, the giants and the Flood. Here’s a quote:
“And straightway God was wroth with them, and He bound them in the terror of Sheol until the day of redemption, as the Apostle saith, “He treated His angels with severity. He spared them not, but made them to dwell in a state of judgement, and they were fettered until the Great Day.” (see II Peter 2:4) The word of God conquered, Who had fashioned Adam in His likeness (or, form), and those who had reviled and made a laughingstock of Adam were conquered. And the daughters of Cain with whom the angels had companied conceived, but they were unable to bring forth their children, and they died. And of the children who were in their wombs some died, and some came forth; having split open the bellies of their mothers they came forth by their navels. And when they were grown up and reached man’s estate they became giants, whose height reached unto the clouds; and for their sakes and the sakes of sinners the wrath of God became quiet, and He said, “My spirit shall only rest on them for one hundred and twenty years, and I will destroy them with the waters of the Flood,” them and all sinners who have not believed the word of God.”
Don, I think you’re right that they didn’t include the book of Enoch due to problems with the manuscripts. The original version must have been written in Hebrew of Aramaic but there are no known complete versions of the book in either of these languages. The most complete version is written in Ge’ez, a semitic language spoken in Ethopia. I did a little research and it seems that the first part of the book, the Book of the Watchers, is believed to be the oldest, and probably also the most authentic part of the book.
I suppose that all in all the book of Enoch makes a good additional read but we ought to be careful that we don’t elevate its status undeservedly to that of the books contained in the present Bible.
God bless.
If you’re interested, you can read the entire Kebra Negast chapter at this address: http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/kn/kn100.htm.
Thanks for all your knowledge. It helps confirm my understanding of these things.
Thanks, Don. But even after all this time, I think I’ve only just scratched the surface of it. Whatever evil manifestations will occur during the tribulation, I’m sure it’s not going to be anything like the science fiction movies lead us to picture it. If anything it’s going to be much worse. Just think of the recent U.S. presidential campaigning and Obama’s election and how it moved the world. And he’s only human. There are cults and new religions enitrely devoted to or inspired by UFOs, the paranormal and in some cases, ancient pagan messianic myths. Some put their faith in evil “aliens” and are willing to abandon their families should they get the chance to be taken by these so-called aliens. And yet they loathe the merciful God of Abraham and those who rightfully put their faith and trust in Him.
I think it would be a good thing to add that the group of angels who fornicated with women (the Watchers) are a group that is separate from Satan and his fallen angels. Most people just lump all fallen angels together. That’s incorrect. While they are all in a sense “fallen”, it is the Watchers who engaged in this rebellion and they are bound as we speak and will not be released until the Final Judgement. They have no free reign. This is not based on the Book of Enoch alone but also on Scripture (see Jude; I Peter 3). The Watchers nevertheless are “fallen” angels but they are not the fallen ones of Satan, who still have free reign on this planet.
It seems there’s also a distinction to be made between evil spirits (demons) and fallen angels. Now this is quite tricky since we tend to call anything that is evil or involves fallen angels simply “demonic”. But when discussing issues like these, I think it would be wiser to clarify things. The bodies of the giants are said to have returned to the earth but not their spirits. These are supposedly the evil spirits that the Bible speaks of that can possess human beings. They are the offspring of fallen angels but strictly speaking they are not true fallen “angels” because they are hybrids who have both human and angelic characteristics.
I consider the terms “gibborim” (man of renown, giants) and “nephilim” to both refer to the giant hybrid offspring of the Watchers (who are fallen angels). Now some say that these Nephilim (giant) spirits cannot be behind the UFOs and other alien appearances because these spirits are to remain invisible (as per book of Enoch). The argument is that they are not fully equal to their angelic progenitors and that they cannot change their appearance (unless perhaps they are alive within their original bodies) since they are only hybrids. They need bodies to possess.
Angels do not need to take possession of bodies because they can change their appearance and make themselves visible to whoever and whenever they want to (remember there are more than three existing dimensions). That is so because they are pure spirits by nature, unlike the (nephilim) demons.
Well, this is a summary of how I understand it. Any other ideas on this? I know it gets quite confusing and it may seem like hairsplitting but if you want to study these things into more detail you simply need a correct terminology.
That is pretty much my position as well. I talk about that in my article on Aliens. I believe what we call demons are wandering spirits whose bodies were destroyed in the flood and they are looking for bodies to possess. They are the spirits of the offspring of angels and woman. Many confuse them with angels of Satan but they are not. The fallen Angels that follow Satan when cast onto the earth will have tremendous supernatural powers. It will be as if they were Gods.
By the way, I am tired of the nonsense in the comments so I am now moderating all comments on this blog. There will be at least a short delay before new posts by anyone appears.
I believe you amke some excellent points, Nasrani. I tend to believe that the ancient myths of demi-gods and such could have their basis in the fact of the angelic intrusion. It is interesting that in most of these myths it is usually a male “god” coming down to procreate with a female human. One never reads of Hera, Artemis or Isis engaging in such acts.
Also, your thoughts on demons possibly being the disembodied spirits of the Nephilm is something I also considered. Luke 8 comes to mind:
Luke 8:30 And Jesus asked him, saying, What is thy name? And he said, Legion: because many devils were entered into him.
Luke 8:31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.
Luke 8:32 And there was there an herd of many swine feeding on the mountain: and they besought him that he would suffer them to enter into them. And he suffered them.
Luke 8:33 Then went the devils out of the man, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the lake, and were choked.
It seems these demons greatly desire to possess a body, whether it be man or swine. Of course they feared of judgement, but it is strange that they did not just ask to be cast out to roam, but wanted permission to inhabit another physical creature. I don’t quite understand why they would inhabit the swine only to run into the water and die. Maybe they didn’t know they pigs would react like that or they just throew a big temper tantrum. It just seems strange to me. Who knows, perhaps Goliath of Gath is still roaming about lamenting getting his head handed to him by a young, Jewish, shepherd boy!
It seems that whatever these demonic creatures are, inhabiting the physical is very important to them. And I agree that fallen angels don’t seem to fit the bill as they can assume a physical form that can be seen and eat food as in the case of Abraham withhisvisit from the Lord and His two angels.
Anyway, this is good stuff and I’ll be checking out your links.
Thanks again and GBU.
Well based on the information on this blog about the book of Enoch. I came to a conclusion that the Book of Enoch was inspired. I do believe God allowed it to be corrupted so that men cannot figure out what these fallen angels are trying to accomplish. This action will fulfilled the prophecy in 2Thessalonians 2:11. I think the prophecy is already starting to be fulfilled due to the fact that more and more people are believing in evolution. So when the angels encounter with these humanists they will convince them that they can help humanity to evolve to a higher state. For the religious folks, I see them being deceived because there will be angels who will claim that they are from God. They will convinced these folks that they are sent here to guide them in life or help them in their “ministry”. For examples go here http://www.youtube.com/user/LocalPastor
I think another things christians get caught up on is this.
Whether or not the book is inspired or not is not so much the question.
the Question should be
IS THIS A ACCURATE HISTORY AND ACCOUNT OF WHAT HAPPENED.
Of course when you do your homework you realize it is.
i am not sure on this subject that i’m about to mention, but in Job 26:5, its speaks of “dead things are formed from under the waters”. Dead meaning rephaim?, i have read on several websites that waters are actually more closely related to the fluid of the double helix coil as we know it today. Now the word rephaim meaning dead AND i believe also could mean giant as well, could not these fallen angel truly been what we would call aliens today,…they TOOK whom they chose, maybe they were genetic engineering back then. Aliens are supposedly doing the same thing. Maybe that is what Jesus was saying about Noahs day is going to happen again, These aliens (fallen Angels) are at it again. the reintroduction to earth by the roswell incident. Human sex cells being removed during abductions, cattle mutilations…cattle is 83% close to human dna. I think that these beings have been giving mankind knowledge through the centuries and now they have introduced us to genetic engineering.
I am not sure about the meaning of the Rephaim but I have been saying the Nephilim descended from Women and fallen angels and that the fallen angels will come in the guise of Aliens when they are cast unto the earth with Satan. It is possible that they are again trying to create a human/angel hybrid as an evolutionary leap forward deception for man and this could actually tie into taking the mark of the Beast.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/aliens.HTM
I believe that the fallen angels came to earth and mated with the women but there is one question that is stuck on my mind.
Since the angels of heaven do not marry or given in marriage how then the fallen angels were able to reproduce then since they were at one time angels of God?
It says angels in heaven do not marry it does not say angels cannot reproduce. Remember before the curse reproduction was also quite different.
What do u mean by reproduction was different before the curse?
Justin I would also like to add that these angels left their first estate and lived on earth and took woman and produced offspring called the Nephilum and for that these angels are now chained awaiting judgment. So technically none of these angels were angels in heaven when Jesus made that statement. However, the whole context of the passage is about marriage for resurrected people. Resurrected people will not get married except the Church to Jesus since marriage is strictly a natural human ordnance and a spiritual mystery about Jesus and His spiritual Bride. I have never even heard of two animals getting married although I am now aware that human asses of the same sex are now claiming marriage.
Actually the only marriage that takes place in heaven is the marriage of Jesus to his spiritual Church.
As for your last question, we do not know how life reproduced before the curse. Eve came out of the side of Adam and there was to be no pain in child birth since that came with the curse. There was also no death or suffering among animals so maybe all life was created to reproduce much like an amoeba. 🙂 We simple do not know these things.
Thanks for clarifying. I found a good article written by John MacArthur on Genesis 6 http://www.gty.org/Resources/Study+Guide+Chapter/2124
well dont be surprise soon when a 13yr old girl and a 40yr old man gets married or some person decides to marry their animal.
But I would not be surprise if there is alot of abuse in a “queer marriage”.
This is a good article on the subject and I am Glad to see that a great teacher like John MacArthur generally agrees with what I said on these often confused passages.
Here is a article on Genesis 6 on the Answers in Genesis website. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/who-were-the-nephilim
Brodie Hodge of AiG talked about the different views of Gen. 6 But it seems like he refutes the belief that the “sons of God” were fallen angels.
I still hold the belief that they were fallen angles though. I would like to know what u think about this article.
Why would you expect me to even read the different views on this issue just because you provide a link to them? I already know the different views and only one holds water. I certainly am not going to debate all the views on the different theories on Genesis 6 in the comment section of a post when there is not even a debate suggested from that person.
The Answers in Genesis Website even says it does not take a position on the different views on this issue, yet you think I am going to take the time to refute his own speculation of which view is the most acceptable to him?
Obviously he goes with the sons of Seth theory because that is the view held by the majority of Christianity and so it is the safe position to take. That is because many people will not teach this passage unless they can explain to people that everything happened naturally. Never mind, that their make up theory is not even logical and that it conflicts with other biblical passages. The Sons of Seth theory brings up more questions than it answers. It also does explain what is recorded in ancient extra biblical accounts like the book of Enoch, the writing of Josephus as well as others. It also does not answer the account of beings coming down as gods in many different ancient cultures.
My position on this is given in my article on Aliens and it has links to more comprehensive information on this topic. My position answers the questions while the Sons of Seth Theory just makes things up to try to provide a natural acceptable answer that will not offend those who only accept what they see on earth now.
He claims the meaning of word Nephilim is not known and claims that all giants were not Nephilum. Neither is true. The word Nephilim originates from the Aramaic word Nephila. Since most teachers are not ancient Hebrew language scholars they make stupid mistakes with Hebrew words and sometimes give them meaning that are wrong. The facts are, if the Hebrew word used is a passive participle it means “fallen ones” and Nephila in Aramaic is the root of this word and that word in Aramic means “giant” So the word is telling us that these beings were sired by fallen beings and they were gigantic. I do not know how he explains 9 to 12 foot giants by normal procreation? Why did the sons of Seth produce giants on the earth just because they married the daughters of Cain? Why would God cause a worldwide flood because all flesh became corrupted if the flesh of man and animals had not become corrupted?
The bottom line is do not go to a General Practitioner when you want answers on difficult passages. Go to a Specialist. You had my view and John MacAuther’s view. I do not know why you now have to ask me to take a position on tired old theories that we already indicated that we totally disagree with.
Thanks for the response. I did not mean to aggravate you. Mr. Hodge just quoted a few verses like Luke 3:38 and Numbers 13:33 and so forth and his article seem pretty convincing to me. I am still learning about the different views on this subject. I do appreciate the info about the word nephilim.
Its not that you aggravated me. When I have to take time to look at the links you post that you ask me to respond to, I cannot then be doing other things like posting other topics on my blog. If you would just read the articles on the original post and the links you would have most of the answers anyway. If you wanted to know about my view on specific biblical passage he brought up you should have been more specific. Otherwise, I have to read the whole article on the link you provided and respond on it all to satisfy your request.
thanks for taking time to read the links and answering my questions. I will for now on quit dishing out links for you to read.
Posting on topic links are fine with me. Just do not expect me to comment on the articles that you link to. If you have a question for me on the topic being discussed you need to be specific.
It is good to see that the Book of Enoch is stirring these kinds of conversations. Curiously, the Book of Enoch (Ethiopic version) begins by addressing the elect that will be alive in the Day of Tribulation… the last generation. Which is to say that this book was written for the end times church. How interesting that this book was lost (except in Ethiopia) until this last century. Certainly the book of Enoch is useful in understanding the beginning and the end. We must remember that the Gen. 6 angels are chained in darkness and await the Judgement, so they can’t possibly be involved in any future events on the earth, apart from the Judgement. It is also important to note that the flood did not stop the mingling of angelic and human blood, there were Nephilim after the flood found in many stories of the Old Testament. This implies that more angels transgressed their boundaries and mated with human women even after the original occurrence. In fact there is reason to believe that the mingling of bloods is still happening in our day. There are many reports and stories of woman who are raped continually by demons. I live in Peru, and such things are not uncommon here. It is obvious that many angels can take on the form of men and women, and thus wear the human body like a garment. It is apparent that angels have seed, what living thing does not have the ability to reproduce? It would seem that God created all life with the ability to spawn more life. This is debatable and not crucial to my point, however, we must assume that since giants were “born” through these woman that there was reproductive activity, and according to Enoch 7:1 the angels “began to go in unto them, and to defile themselves with them…” which obviously means that the angels had intercourse with the daughters of men. Has anyone read or seen Beowolf? Interesting is it not? the same kind of story… Anyways… heres my thoughts on our adversaries strategy concerning the union of angelic and human blood. Satan has been very careful to conceal the truth of the Nephilim, I do not believe that he will be parading them in the streets anytime soon. However consider this, Satan often replicates the works of God and devises counterfeits to the truth. This is actually his greatest tool against the church, the power of deception based on the truth. Therefore, I submit that the beast spoken of in Revelation, the “anti-christ”, will be a replication of the true Christ. He will come of a virgin birth, and carry the blood of his father Satan, just as Jesus was born of Mary and was the son of His Father in heaven. We know that the beast is wounded fatally in the head and will probably die briefly as a result, but his wound will be miraculous healed and he will live. This will of course be a counterfeit resurrection. All people groups and cultures will hail him as the “Messiah” and he will bring peace to the world, for a season. I do not believe that the devil we need to incorporate any kind of Alien rues to deceive the world, he has been doing it quite well without Aliens for many centuries.
Timothy said,
“It is also important to note that the flood did not stop the mingling of angelic and human blood, there were Nephilim after the flood found in many stories of the Old Testament. This implies that more angels transgressed their boundaries and mated with human women even after the original occurrence.”
That is probably not true or those Angels would be chained as well. The giant genetics after the flood could have come through one or more of the wives of the Son’s of Noah. This could be the reason why God told Israel to kill every man woman and child in the land of Canaan where these giants lived. In other words, to purge the earth of people who still still carried a gene that was not descended from Adam.
Also, fallen angels and demons are not the same thing. I believe when the Nephilim’s physical bodies were destroyed their spirit lived on because they were half angel. They now wander the earth looking for a body to possess. The book of Enoch implies this as does the New Testament accounts of demons. On the other hand, angels bodies cannot be destroyed and when taking physical form they always appear as very large men. Demons are sons of Satan in a sense since they descended from Satan’s angels but they are not angels.
Your explanation of the Antichrist counterfeiting Christ might seem reasonable at first but it cannot happen. Satan cannot create human life so the Antichrist is not going to come from a virgin. That would not be necessary anyway since unbelievers do not think Jesus Christ came from a virgin either. The Antichrist will be thought to be the fulfillment of all major religions on the earth not just the Jews and apostate Christianity.
I think when Satan is cast out of Heaven he will take over this man and claim to be above anything called God. That really makes me think he will claim to be the God of God’s people once called Zeus. Then He will deceive the world to fight against the coming of a tribal God called YHWH or Jesus Christ. How else could the world be deceived into fighting the coming of the real Jesus Christ unless supernatural beings were deceiving them, telling them that they could stop His coming?
Demons, aliens, false religion and the occult all lead to the same end. They are just different twists on the same deception.
This is not necessarily true. The Watchers were a high order of angels and as such may have borne a more severe punishment for their transgression. Or perhaps more Watchers fell in like manner and were punished in like manner. One thing is for certain, none of the people on the ark carried the blood line. Noah and his family were chosen to continue human life on earth, why would God have chosen to allow the unholy bloodline to continue through them? The fall of angels is not a singular event that occurred in history, it is a reoccurring event that continues to this day. Satan fell before the Watchers, and he was not chained up at all. In fact he still has access to certain levels of the heavens, even accusing us before the father. Surely Satan’s sin would have been counted more severe than the Watchers.
What makes you think that the Watchers could produce offspring and not Satan? Satan is not concerned with counterfeiting lies, but the truth. He doesn’t have to deceive unbelievers, they are already in his kingdom and totally deceived. It is the church that he seeks to deceive, and will use a christ-like man to do it. A virgin birth would be hailed as miraculous in any religion and taken as a sign of divinity, not christianity.
Satan covets Jesus’ throne. He will produce his own “christ” and his “christ” will govern the Nations for a season, and then, just as Jesus will give His kingdom to God the Father after 1000 years, so Satan’s “christ” will give his kingdom to his father who will in that day be worshipped as a god. However, the people will know that the Lord is God because of the power demonstrated through the end times church, they will simply despise Him and His people. Satan will not claim to be Zeus, he wants worship for who is he is, and will finally reveal himself to the Nations, but as an angel of light.
Actually, you really have no idea what rank of order watchers are in heaven and if they get different punishments. At least you are not getting this concept from the Bible.
Noah was chosen because he was righteous in his generation which can also be interpreted that he was genealogical pure. Now why in the would would that be true with Noah’s sons wives? They are not mentioned as being righteous in their generations. If everyone but Noah and his sons already had corrupted genetics the wives of Noah’s sons wives had to be allowed on the ark for a couple of reasons. Noah sons would not have come without their wives and there would be no woman to repopulate the earth. God obviously would have known that he was going to deal with the gene issue later. By the little that we are told you cannot assume you know what happened or also assume you know the way that God would use to keep the linage from Adam pure, (so the kinsman redeemer could come from Adam and pay the blood price for Adam’s sin and redeem man). Using the same logic as you did with Noah’s sons wives, why would God chain angels that brought about the events where he had to destroy all flesh and then allow angels to come after the flood to do it all over again?
Your the one who keeps saying that Satan will bring the Antichrist through a virgin birth. Reproduction between Satan and a woman is not a virgin birth. I agree that Satan will bring a type of Christ but the word Christ just means “anointed”. All major religious are looking for some type of anointed one (Christ). Satan cannot deceive the Church about the Antichrist we have the Holy Spirit. In fact the Antichrist cannot even come until the restrainer in us is removed.
Satan covets the throne of God and wants to be worshiped as God. If he wanted only Jesus Throne on earth Satan would not have offered it to Jesus. Instead Satan will offer it to the Antichrist but the Antichrist is not Satan.
You are wrong Satan actually does deceive those that have not accepted Jesus Christ. That is what the great commission to the Church is all about. We are to preach the good news to the whole world so those that hear and believe can be freed from bondage to Satan. If unbelievers were all totally deceived and already in Satan’s kingdom why even preach the gospel of salvation? Everyone in the Church was in darkness and deceived by Satan before they got saved.
What power demonstrated through the end times church are you even talking about? Where in scripture is it found that the Church is going to fight the Antichrist? The Church is out of here before the Antichrist even arrives on the scene. You must believe in heretical Kingdom Now Theology.
I was talking about the Antichrist the Antichrist is not Satan. At least I have scriptural grounds for saying that the Antichrist will claim to be Zeus. In the letter to Pergamos in Revelation Jesus said Satan’s throne was located there. The only throne that was located at Pergamos was a huge altar to Zeus and as I speak the ruins of the altar to Zeus is being restored. Zeus is also known as the God of Gods. The Antichrist is certainly not going to claim to be Satan since scripture says that Satan and the Antichrist have different roles before they end up in the Lake of Fire.
Much of what you posted here is just your own subjective speculations you cannot prove most of what you said from scripture.
I have read through several posts on this site and would like to make a few observations, If I may be permitted.
Moses did say that “ben elohim” “laqach bath Adam” [the Hebrew for Genesis 6:2] and produced giants by going in to them before the flood and also after the flood.
The chained Watchers were chained in Sheol at the time of the flood, as Enoch states, and Jude states that they were chained as a warning to other angels who would be tempted to do the same fornication, just as the nuking of Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities of the plain were warnings to fornicating sodomites to not do that.
1 Enoch [Ethiopion Enoch] is written in parables, and many of them are now understood, like the Son of Man in heaven who was with God, hidden, kept secret, who was God, and who was to come, die, make an end of sin, rise, take the righteous from Sheol when He rose, come again, regenerate the heavens and earth, and unite the redeemed with the Father, through Him, and that through and in His name[ which name was secret until its revealing, as pr Enoch], the redeemed would be saved.
Enoch is the first book of instruction about the second consummation of sin on earth by the Tribulation, and he wrote of the flood was the first consummation of sin on earth.
In 1 Enoch the pre-tribulation rapture of the righteous is in the parable of chapter 50. Those who see and repent get no glory, but in His name they are saved. The unrepentant will perish.
Enoch saw the Son of Man in heaven as the Holy Anointed One, and he saw Him as God, and as the Son of Man in heaven, who was to come.
There is another history book which is valid and correlates with Genesis and which was a longer version of the history of the world, as experienced by the line of the Patriarchs, from Adam to Moses. That book is called the Book of the Upright, or the book of Jasher, and within its pages it states that Moses wrote it, and that Joshua finished it. Moses’ Genesis’account is a redacted record of that which he wrote called the Book of the Upright -Jasher.
Jasher does not deal with the fallen Watchers [judges over earth, the dans, in Jasher] much, as that is in Enoch, but it does say that if men had repented of their evil then the flood would not have come upon the earth. Men had 120 years to repent, and they did not, yet in Jasher, not all the men on earth were wicked or corrupted in their blood lines, and they who were not wicked or corrupted were all taken away before the flood, with Methusaleh being the last, so that they would not witness the flood which would sweep the unrepentant away [as said in Isaiah 57:1].
You can access the real book of Jasher [there are frauds] at http://www.ccel.org. http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/real.htm
More, on the comments on this site-
Moses did write that the sons of God/ben elohim took/laqach daughters of Adam/bath Adam, and went into them and giants were born of them before and after the flood.
Those watchers who fornicated with “bath Adam” before the flood were chained as warnings, states Jude, and they could only be warnings to other Watchers/ ben elohim, who would afterwards be tempted by the ‘satans’ to do the same.
Jude equates the fornication of the Sodomites and the cities of the plain with the fornication of the angels who sinned with daughters of Adam, and he states that the ‘nuking’ of Sodom and the cities of the plain [ancient peoples did have nukes, and you can read about them in the ancient hindu scriptures -which are really just narratives of the doings of the fallen angels and the sons of Adam] , were warnings to others…
Other angels did fall in the same fornicating sins after the flood, and the history of their offspring in Canaan and the world is available to read, not just in the Bible [in Canaan] but in ancient histories still available. The giants/titans burned Rome, at one time, and ancient historians report on the wars Rome’s armies had with the giants, and their conquering of them at last.
Goliath and his four brothers were descended from Anak, an offspring of Watcher.
Every living soul/creatures who had the breath of life, and dwelt on the land perished in the flood; and not one breathing, living soul outside the ark remained alive, states the OT and the book of Jasher.
So those who claim that the titans/giants/nephillim survied the flood are not believing what the Word does say, which does say that angels did take bath Adam after the flood, and before the flood, and giants were born to them.
They did this sin even though they had been warned, and no, they are not chained, but the doom of the first ones is stated in Enoch, and it is the doom of all the fallen ones, in the end.
Men also commit the same type of fornication and iniquity as those in Sodom and the cities of the plain did, which brought the wrath of God upon them [which is told in Jasher chapter 18 and 19, BTW, and redacted in the OT http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/18.htm; and http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/19.htm; but they are not all nuked, either, who commit the iniquities and fornications of the five citiesm but the warning of Sodom and those cities is their warning, also, to take heed.
Jud 1:5-7 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day; as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality /fornication] and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
The Book of Enoch was too deep I believe to be put in the Bible. I do not believe God had any intentions of allowing it in the Bible.
The Book is very deep and I believe for some things one MUST have the Holy Spirit. As I read some of it for the first time just a few months ago, it spoke clearly to me. I understood why it was not allowed in the Bible.
I believe God hand was in not allowing it. Though I truly believe it is the inspired Word of God. It was confirmation to me on some things. It is not for everybody to understand at all.
The majority are still debating on the elementary things of God, no way they can understand the deeper things of God. Still debating on baptism and such…..
I just ran across a you tube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fTkvkkFAd0) about the book of Enoch. Fascinating stuff. This guy though is all up in arms about how we should be looking at the book of Enoch because Jude and 2nd Peter write about it and reference it. I’m not sure though what his main point is. Someone asked him if he was a gnostic and he replied that he didn’t like labels. Maybe he’s an alien believer? Who knows.
I think there’s a reason that most Christians give up on really knowing the Bible and doctrine. There are just too many competing theologies and philosophies: “THIS IS THE TRUTH, IT’S BEEN HIDDEN FROM YOU!!” and then another says, “DON’T LISTEN TO THOSE IDIOTS. THEY’RE GOING TO BURN IN HELL!!!” I think it causes many to not believe in Christ at all. And then if you do manage to come to some sort of faith, you’re presented with all of the wonderful theological arguments and eschatological aruments: “Calvin was right! Follow TULIP.” and the opposing views say, “No, no, no. Arminius was right!” Then there’s pre-trib, mid-trib, post-trib, no-trib, Pre Milenial, Post Milenial, Amilenial. And then there’s the more subtle ideas of preterism, non-canonical books, the issues of God’s law, etc. ad infinitum.
I tell you , I’m exhausted. I don’t want to know the truth anymore. I don’t want to burn in hell or be dead forever (depending on which version of hell you believe of course). [Sigh] Solomon was right. Knowledge is wearisome and of the making of many books there is no end.
[Sigh, again, because I need another sigh :-)] I’m going to agree with Solomon from Ecclesiastes 5:18-20: “Here is what I have seen: It is good and fitting for one to eat and drink, and to enjoy the good of all his labor in which he toils under the sun all the days of his life which God gives him; for it is his heritage. 19 As for every man to whom God has given riches and wealth, and given him power to eat of it, to receive his heritage and rejoice in his labor—this is the gift of God. 20 For he will not dwell unduly on the days of his life, because God keeps him busy with the joy of his heart.”
You do not have to know all correct theology to be saved and live the Christian life. All you really need for faith and Christian practice is clearly explained in the New Testament. As John said,
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Other truth’s can certainly be known by Christians but it takes study and understanding of God’s word. There are not multiple truths. Only one interpretation of any passages is ultimately correct. If you want to be wise in the understanding of the scriptures you really need to strive for wisdom and understand. Those are spiritual gifts of God given to those who seek them and they are refined by study and by sitting under the teaching of wise Christian teachers. I do not suggest that all Christians have the time or ability to get all theology correct. That is why Christian elders in the local assembly primary need to pick good shepherds that will watch over their local flock.
The argument that even experts cannot agree on theology are about non essentials of the faith so don’t over blow the problem and use that as some excuse for not believing the essentials of the faith that are required to believe for faith and practice. John speaks of these essentials so that you can know you are saved in the passage above and in other passages of his books.
Biff said,
You’re right, the scriptures contain all the knowledge that one needs to be saved.
An understanding of God’s word is what is needed in order to be born again.
The reason God (Jesus Christ) said “I gave you Moses and the Prophets” is a honest indication as to why there is no record of the Book of Enoch in the Bible. The Book of Enoch is not from the days of the Pre flood era nor is it an accurate record, it is a sort of off the shelf, type of book like today, where descriptions of the things in the Torah, are taken further, and deliberately offers a distortion of Genesis.
The meanings of words and understanding of truths that harmonise with all scriptures are missing in the Book of Enoch, and is easily discerned.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Sons-of-Nephilim-a-Hoax
There are many theories why the Book of Enoch is not in the Canon. Some arguments are already discussed here.
I agree that the Book of Enoch that we have is not inspired by God but there are quite a few ancient accounts of angles producing an offspring with women besides just the Book of Enoch.
Your link gives the opposing sons of Seth argument but many of these things have already been addressed in the article and comments here.
If you want another view from a scholar that opposes your Sons of Seth view and much of what you said in your article here is a link to John MacAuthur’s teaching on this.
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Study+Guide+Chapter/2124
I find it very difficult for me to believe that all the Sons of Seth were Sons of God and all the daughter of Cain were of the devil when everyone on the earth except Noah was doing evil before the flood.
This link will address that concept and much more.
http://www.mt.net/~watcher/enoch5.html
Don
Thanks Don, I went through the links trying to be level headed, but after a while, they dont issue much depth in the descriptions and seem to be leading, rather than revealing.
I wont comment on their errors, but this, They do not magnify that Jesus was there in the begining
Man was once immortal, as in the image and likeness of God .
We are now restored to our original state, and only time has to complete its course.
There is not much said in the Bible about this so I do not know how anyone goes into a whole lot of depth on this issue just from the Bible.
On the other hand, with your Sons of Seth theory you have to read a whole lot into what the Bible actually says and contradict historians like Josephus. It simply makes no sense that the sons of Seth were all saved believers called the Sons of God and the daughters of Cain were all unbelievers. No one is saved through genealogy..
It also makes no sense to think that marrying an unbeliever would produce a mighty offspring that God called Nephilim. By the way, your idea in your article that all these giants were only 8 or 9 feet is not likely. The bed of Og after the flood was 9 cubits or 13.5 feet. That length was put in the Bible to tell us the size of the man, not his bed. It is likely that the people mentioned before the flood as mighty men of renown were even bigger. Also, where are the mighty men of renown even found? They are found in what we now call mythology.( i.e Hercules etc.). It was not all myth.
Myths, yes I agree only myths like Evolution, and then there are many myths, which are in truth distortions of the truth, which reminds me of Romans 1 where Paul actually states where the world would pervert the truth. Like Science, Evolution, Homosexuality, Beastiality, etc. in an attempt to make the Gospel look like a lie.
Thanks for the positive review and link Don!
I’ve mellowed since the original writing of that article btw, and we may publish an updated article. I’m glad your audience really dug into the topic. And I tend to agree with you that only the earlier portions of Enoch are authentic, ie, what the early church was referring to. It’s divided into 5 parts actually, can’t quote the source on that right now. And I also agree with your other posters that the Bible we have is all we need for salvation… Enoch, Josephus, etc, are all valuable for understanding the history and mindset of ancient world (the original audiences of the NT), and I think in this case for affirming what a “straight reading” of Genesis 6, Peter and Jude refer to, and probably for understanding the final deception / grand delusion as well.
But as I think you know, this year’s Christian Symposium on Aliens http://www.christiansymposium.com made the point about the alien deception, while instructing the speakers NOT to speak on or base their arguments on Enoch, Genesis 6, Nephilim, Rapture, or any eschatological views which might cause portions of the mainstream church to stumble over (what we called for the event) secondary theology.
Thanks again;
Yours because His,
Guy in Roswell
Thanks for the update Guy. It looks like the symposium focuses more on present day manifestations of these fallen angels posing as Aliens and how that will one day lead to the great deception for all those who refuse to hear the truth.
The line up of speakers is excellent. This is a popular topic for many reasons.
Check it out at http://www.christiansymposium.com
The latest I have seen is, they are trying to imply that, the word “seed” and “mingle” mentioned in Dan 2:43, is talking about Aliens changing the DNA of man, which is totaly foolish and dumb to even imagine. Dan 2:43 .. And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
This is talking about Globalization, and its impending failure, NWO. and its obvious that its not talking about Aliens mingling the seed of men.
It gets more ridiculous biblical ministers actually believe that Jesus died for Alien Hybrids on the cross, yet Jesus Christ died for man kind all man kind.
http://hubpages.com/hub/Sons-of-Nephilim-a-Hoax
Hoowantstono said, “it gets more ridiculous biblical ministers actually believe that Jesus died for Alien Hybrids on the cross”
I do not know one person that is making any such claim. On the contrary they are saying this is why those that take the mark can no longer be saved. If the DNA is changed they are no longer fully human and cannot be saved by a Kinsman Redeemer.
You really need to quit reading into what people are saying just because you choose to believe a theory that makes even less sense in context of what we have been told and know.
So who are the “they” in the “they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men” passage? Some failed Globalization theory is just reading something into the passage that it does not say. Therefore, your theory is not even as believable as the other.
Or are you just here again to push your own article and theory? Next time it will be deleted.
Sorry if its made you angry, I heard it come from a few ministers on television, I don’t want to mention their names.
Yes the Redeemer cannot save those who receive the 666, but it definitely is not an Alien doing the implants or messing with the DNA its men influenced by the Devil.
Yes it is
“They” in the “they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men” passage? is a failed Globalization that God ends up destroying like in the past even the flood . Therefore, your idea of Aliens if it is what you believe is a mockery of Godliness
You can delete this if you want
You did not make me angry in your prior comment but your last reply succeeded. I expect the truth from Christians. Why not mention their names if ministers on TV said anything implying that Jesus will save alien hybrids? I think you misunderstood what they said. If you are going to make such ludicrous claims then quote someone.
By the way, I was talking about deleting the link to your article that had already been posted before on this thread, not your comments.
So you are saying the “they” in the “they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men” is failed globalization. Where does that passage imply that at all? How is my theory of Aliens a mockery of Godliness???
You really are being insulting as well as making no sense in your arguments. So either contribute something constructive to the topic and tell the truth or be gone.
I wonder if satan coaxed these fallen angels to… well, fall? I wonder what he would have had to gain from that? Maybe he was thinking corrupt the earth, keep the promised seed from it and reign forever. Guess what Satan you loose, you lost and you need to be afraid. VERY AFRAID!!! He probably already is but is such a liar he’s even lied to himself.
I have read 1 Enoch many times since I first “discovered” it, and have come to believe that it is inspired, and is written in parables which were not understood until they came to pass. Some have not yet come to pass, but they will.
Enoch was never banned by the Ethiopians and they kept it in their “list” of book collections they considered “sacred”. The DSS manuscripts have not all been published, but the only part missing so far from the Ethiopian Enoch is that on the Son of Man, which may yet be in the collection but which is verified as authentic by the remaining chapters in Ethiopian Enoch which refer to what is in those not yet found in the DSS.
Jesus said the letter kills but the Spirit gives life, and no one is saved by dead letters, but by the preaching of the Gospel of Christ. Presumably, after one is saved by the “revelation of Christ”=being born of His Living Spirit, regenerated within”, they will have a desire to “study to show themselves approved unto God, workmen that need not to be ashamed”, and if one is going to do that, then one needs to read what Jesus and His womb brothers James and Jude knew, and preached from, besides the OT prophets.
I have a comment on the “lie” of 2 Thes 2 which is referenced by many and speculated on:
Enoch reveals what that lie is, and Paul is just making a reference to that delusion, in 2 Thes 2.
That lie is believed by all who reject the Son of Man and who do not repent in the Tribulation, when the orbits of the heavenly bodies change, and “men take them to be for gods, and worship them”, during the tribulation.
The gods of the unregenerate people of earth will be countless, then, as the stars are, and as in Hinduism.
People will bow to a man who is supposed to be an incarnation of the anti-Trinity [as in Hinduism], but they will make themselves many gods to worship, which will represent the heavenly bodies, which they “take to be for gods”.
From Enoch chapter 80: http://www.ccel.org/c/charles/otpseudepig/enoch.htm
6 And many chiefs of the stars shall transgress the order (prescribed).
And these shall alter their orbits and tasks,
And not appear at the seasons prescribed to them.
7 And the whole order of the stars shall be concealed from the sinners,
And the thoughts of those on the earth shall err concerning them,
[And they shall be altered from all their ways],
Yea, they shall err and take them to be gods.
8 And evil shall be multiplied upon them,
And punishment shall come upon them So as to destroy all.’
~~~
The “evil” is the tribulation time judgments.
2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe [a/the] lie:
And as the difference in Satan and fallen Watchers/sons of God: the satans are created evil spirits in heaven, with one chief Satan, as is corroborated by Enoch, Jubilees and Jasher, and the OT. and NT. Their jobs are to tempt, test, try, and deceive holy angels in heaven and men on earth, until the end of this present creation, and then to accuse them before the throne of Glory, so that they become their “food”, so to speak -C. S, Lewis did not invent that doctrine espoused in “Screwtape” letters, , he read it and got the idea in the ancient books, like Enoch, Jasher, and Jubilees.
Biblically, Satan was never a cherub and was not ever [yet] cast out of heaven, and will not be, until he is cast into the lake of fire for eternity at the end of the millennial reign.
In 1 Enoch, the fallen Watchers were tempted by the satans and became subject to them. The demons are subject to the chief satan, being evil spirits in the earth, as 1 Enoch 15 and the book of Jubilees note. But the satans are evil spirits in heaven, as even the Bible notes.
Nah, the “lies” I was referring to was his native tongue(John 8). When I think to myself, I don’t do it in Spanish I don’t even know Spanish. When the devil tempted Jesus offering “All these things(Matthew 4) he really had them to give. Jesus didn’t say no you don’t, this world doesn’t belong to you. What I met by “falling” was just that. Not just lusting after the daughters but giving in to those lusts. After all eve found him to be very persuasive. I really think his motive was very simple. Christ cannot be born of Giants. Poison the DNA of men and he wont be able to make it, and that will eliminate the threat of his truths.
Terrie K
That was quite a crock.
Also Satan was a Cherub.
Can you sen me some info to my yahoo account on the basics of the book and some related books
SARA CASH
No.
If you are really interested in this subject you will read what is said here, you will follow the links in the post and the comments section, and then you will do any additional research necessary on own.
Hi Don,
Sorry, I had not returned to read your comment before now;
A Crock? What does that word mean in relation to my post?
I never speculate or invent, but I do read and speak of what I have read in Enoch and other ancient books, like Jubilees. The author of Jubilees uses information got from Enoch and possibly other ancient writings, [but it, itself, does not correlate with Moses’ writings, as the Pentetuech and Jasher nor the prophets after Moses, nor with Enoch], and it does show what the sons of Zadok [the royal priesthood line who left the DSS manuscripts in the Qumran caves] believed about the chief Satan and the satans under him.
The satans are the evil spirits “in heaven” who tempt angels there, and who tempt men, here, according to Enoch -and also according to ancient Jewish writings, and there is no place in the Word of God where Satan was ever a cherub. The word for the serpent in the garden cannot be connected to a cherub, but has a Bible connection to the word, serif, and serifim. A cherub fell, but Satan was never a cherub in any Scripture, in any prophets writing, in any time. No one can find one single Scripture for satan being a fallen, formerly holy, angel; but many scriptures which do teach that Satan is the adversary, and an evil spirit in heaven, who has many evil spirits in heaven under his authority, and that he is created for the lake of fire and created to test, tempt, and try, angels and men.
in 1 Enoch 54 we read”
4And I asked the angel of peace who went with me, saying: “For whom are these chains being prepared?”
5And he said unto me: “These are being prepared for the hosts of Azazel, so that they may take them and cast them into the abyss of complete condemnation, and they shall cover their jaws with rough stones as the Lord of Spirits commanded. 6And Michael, and Gabriel, and Raphael, and Phanuel shall take hold of them on that great day, and cast them on that day into the burning furnace, that the Lord of Spirits may take vengeance on them for their unrighteousness in becoming subject to Satan and leading astray those who dwell on the earth.”
And in chapter 65, another fragment;
5And Enoch my grandfather came and stood by me, and said unto me: “Why hast thou cried unto me with a bitter cry and weeping? 6And a command has gone forth from the presence of the Lord concerning those who dwell on the earth that their ruin is accomplished because they have learnt all the secrets of the angels, and all the violence of the satans, and all their powers- the most secret ones-”
Also, the evil spirits on earth, those demons who are the disembodied nephillim, are under his authority on earth, as the writings state, [like Enoch, Jubilees, and the NT], until they are gathered by the angels and cast into the lake of fire, at the return of the LORD to reign.
After re-reading the “Crock” it makes more sense to me today so I will officially de-Crock your statement.
As for your statement that Satan was not a Cherub, Ezekiel chapter 28 makes it pretty clear to me that he was.
Lest you say Lucifer or the Cherub or the serpent is not Satan. Revelation says that Satan the Serpent and Devil are the same being.
Hi Don,
Here is, briefly, why I do not believe there is any Scripture support for calling satan a fallen cherub, and see much support in the Sriptures and in the ancient ‘accepted’ writings for satan and a whole host of satans having been created as opposers, to test and try angels and men -and seemingly getting the spoils, the cast aways, to feast upon in the lake of fire [as CS Lewis also understood it and wrote it into his fiction, “screwtape letters”], that Satan and his angels [not holy] were created for the lake of fire and it for them.
There is a fallen cherub, but his name is not satan and he is not named lucifer, either, as what is translated in English from Hebrew is just, “to shine”, but the devil/ Satan is the prince of darkness, in the Word, and not a holy angel of light.
The devil and his minions “feed on dust [the race of Adam’s corruption]” since the fall, and so are “angels” [not holy ones, nor fallen] of destruction; therefore of Sheol.
Now, in Jasher, we learn that satan can shapeshift, and in the NT we learn the same, that he can shapeshift to the form of an angel of light, which is not his natural form, and he does it to deceive. When we say Satan can “do this or that”, we also include the host of his army created to serve him, as the chief satan, to whom they answer. Tthe satans are not omnipresent, but there are a host of them, as revealed in the writings.
In the OT, the spirit in heaven before the throne which said it would go be a lying spirit in the mouth of the prophets of a certain king to deceive him was a satan, and we learn in 1 Enoch that they dwell in heaven, and the chief Satan and all his hosts are responsible to God and can do nothing without his permission, as even Jesus said to Pilate, who could do nothing to Him without permission from above.
Satan had to get permission to test Peter, to “sift him like wheat”, but Jesus knew that Peter would stand the test, for He prayed for him, and told Peter that “when he returned, to strengthen his brethren”.
He had to get permission to test Job, and in the Book of Jasher, we also see that he had to get permission to test Abraham and Isaac, in the sacrifice of Isaac.
Again, when we say Satan, we mean not the chief of the satans, alone, but the host of them who tempt, test, try, kill and destroy. Satan was a liar from the beginning, says Jesus, and the Cherub was a beautifu,l holy, anointed creature, who was of the light. That Cherub sang praises, but the Satan has only been a devil, a slanderer, a destroyer, a liar, from the beginning. He did not fall, he was created for the purpose he has, and when God’s plan is finished and the heavens and earth are regenerated, he will never be free again, for his purpose is finished and he goes to his place, prepared for him from the beginning.
The devil, satan, is called a serpent, but the serpent is not called a cherub. There is a prince of Sheol called Abbaddon, “Destruction”, appolyion, in the Word , but he has always been prince of there -he has authority in its darkness, and he is not that fallen holy Cherub who loses his place and authority from Eden.
In Jubilees, Satan he is called Mastema, the prince of the demons, the same prince of darkness.
Also, in the book of Enoch, Gabriel is set over the serpents, which seem to be the same as the satans.
1 Enoch chapter 20
“7Gabriel, one of the holy angels, who is over Paradise and the serpents and the Cherubim.”
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade [him], and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.
Sorry. That was my post above, forgot to sign it.
Terrie
Another thing about the cherub having been in Eden is that Adam was there, too, in the beginning, and got cast back out to the earth from which he was formed; and in the tower of Babel affair, the fallen race of Adam, under Nimrod, tried to build a tower to ascend to heaven illegally, and they desired to “make a name” for themselves, according to the Genesis 11 Hebrew, to “scatter over the earth”, not for banding together as some commentators teach, but actually “making a name” to spread over the earth by and to take over heaven by -that is cause to pause and think about the attempt to ascend up by “some other way”, and to have eternal life for their mortal bodies without repenting and being regenerated in the name of the Son of Man who was to come and is come.
This brings us to the reason the bodies burn for the millennium and do not burn up, of those rebels whose bodies are looked upon, burning, in Isaiah. The whole reason God cast us [Adam, our first father, and we his seed who would to come of him] out of Eden was to keep us from taking the tree of life’s fruit and living forever in the irrevocably fallen from glory bodies which were vain for their purpose after the fall and could never enter into the presence of the glory nor the glory in them, as sons of God after they were corrupted with the vile fruit.
So why do bodies of rebels burn for the thousand years in the sight of all who come to look? I think there is reason to believe that they thought they “found another way” to live forever, without dying, but they will be disembodied anyway, when they are cast into sheol when Jesus returns, and so it was all for naught -they will never get back to Eden unless they are regenerated in the name of the New Man, the LORD come in flesh, who is our Kinsman/Redeemer. Now that is speculation, but reasoned from much reading and not out of nothing. I don’t know if I am even on the right track about that, but it is not out of line with the teaching of the word.
Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Enoch 90 -when Jesus returns to reign, and first judges:
23″And behold they were all bound, I saw, and they all stood before Him. 24And the judgement was held first over the stars, and they were judged and found guilty, and went to the place of condemnation, and they were cast into an abyss, full of fire and flaming, and full of pillars of fire. 25And those seventy shepherds were judged and found guilty, and they were cast into that fiery abyss. 26And I saw at that time how a like abyss was opened in the midst of the earth, full of fire, and they brought those blinded sheep, and they were all judged and found guilty and cast into this fiery abyss, and they burned; now this abyss was to the right of that house. 27And I saw those sheep burning and their bones burning.
Interesting conjecture all built on your own interpretation of extra biblical writings but you still have not explained Ezekiel chap 28 that makes it clear to just about anyone that it is talking about the same Satan, Serpent and Devil said to be the same entity in the two verses of Revelation that I quoted. You did not address that.
By the way, those that put vowels in the consonantal Hebrew text chose to vocalize nachash as “serpent”, from the consonantal text it could be translated as either “serpent” or “shining one” since there was no difference to the Hebrews. The ancient books they had available to them in those days made it clear that the creature in the garden was a shining brass colored serpentine being. Knowing that, both Lucifer and the Serpent are shining beings. The serpent is the same being as the Lucifer of Isa 14:12 as well as the being of Ezekiel chap 28. He is also the Dragon (another serpentine beings), they are all the same as also is said in Revelation 20:2
Like I said, interesting conjecture but I do not see how you get around the fact that the Bible says they are the same beings.
On your other post I do not think the text says bodies will be burning on earth for a thousand years. When the bible talks about the worm dying not it means the memory of them as far as I know. The rest is probably talking about their torment in Hades.
On the corpses [bodies] burning, and being looked upon, I got that from Isaiah; 66:24 “And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases/corpses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. ”
All flesh shall abhor those burning corpses that they go forth to gaze upon, and they will not be looking into the lake of fire to do that, which is “out” of the realm of earth, nor will they be going down to Sheol to visit dead souls, so I know no other way to explain that to my mind…and the worm not dying is also in Enoch and gives us lots more to ponder when Jesus also uses that in relation to the men cast into the lake of fire .
Nevertheless, on the rest: The serpent in the garden was created “not covered, naked”, and after Adam sinned, Adam also was “not covered, naked”, though he was created as a son of God to be a temple of human beings made for the Glory to indwell, and which glory departed him at the fall [as ancient texts also teach and as the ancient Chinese oracle bone writing also show, by the characters used for the male and female before the fall, with the glory upon them] but the Cherub in Ezekiel was holy, not uncovered, crafty, naked
Another point on the cherub: Cherubim have no identity with the serpent/dragon/devil in the Word of God, but are seen as:
1 four faced, four winged holy creatures, with calf feet and man hands, and the four faces are eagle, bull, man, and lamb;
2 as two faced and two winged guardians over the glorious Mercy Seat in heaven, where the Glory dwells [typed by Moses in the holy of holies below].
Eze 1:5 Also out of the midst thereof [came] the likeness of four living creatures. And this [was] their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.
Eze 1:10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.
Eze 41:18 ¶ And [it was] made with cherubims and palm trees, so that a palm tree [was] between a cherub and a cherub; and [every] cherub had two faces;
Eze 41:19 So that the face of a man [was] toward the palm tree on the one side, and the face of a young lion toward the palm tree on the other side: [it was] made through all the house round about.
Gabriel, in Enoch is also set over the Cherubim, just as he is set over the serpents and Paradise.
Gabriel is one of the seven chief Watchers, in Enoch, and is of the same order as the 200 watchers who fell before the flood and “cut roots =spliced genes” [not, “used leaves for herbs for healing or drugs”, as some said] to get offspring from “bath Adam” .
Isaiah 66:24 says nothing about people looking at burning bodies for a thousand years like you claim that people will. Why even try to explain passages that you do not understand with subjective and unlikely speculations?
Again, you use non Biblical sources and subjective interpretation of those books to try to explain things in the Bible and you still did not answer my question why Revelation makes the serpent the Devil and Satan the same being when you say from your non biblical speculations that they are not.. Ezekiel chapter 28 makes it clear to me this this same being called Satan, the Devil, the Serpent, or the Dragon was also a Cherub but you from your non biblical sources say Satan was not a Cherub.
It seems to me that you form your conclusions from books that were rejected as scripture and then try to interpret scripture through them. First learn and understand scripture to understand what to accept and reject in these non biblical sources.
Forget the bodies, as that is not important to this anyway. We can agree to disagree on that, I’m sure.
But the Bible does not say that the fallen cherub in Ezekiel is a satan, a devil, a serpent, a destroyer, a dragon. It is not in the passage at all.
Nor is the devil, the serpent, the dragon, the destroyer, the prince of darkness, the liar, the slanderer, the murderer, the tempter, the belial, the Beelzebub, ever called a cherub or a son of God, in the Bible.
Now as to extra biblical books, that depends on the books one has in their Bible, whether they follow Rome or Rome’s children, or follow other born again in Christ believers who include Enoch in their Bible, like the Ethiopian Jews who converted to Christ’s Gospel in the first century and who did not follow Rome and ban Enoch, and who kept it in their Bible for these two millennia.
Enoch is included in the Bible [Bible means a collection of books/writings -called sacred, by believers] of the ancient Qumran community, and anyone can actually research that fact for themselves. They were Jews, they had Enoch, they read it and believed it.
Okay, I have had my say, and I thank you for the time and space to say it.
Have a good day -and a glorious eternity in Christ Jesus.
Terrie
It is implied in the passage that it is talking about the same being that we know as Satan and the Devil. You need to correlate and interpret scripture with scripture. YOU STILL DID NOT EXPLAIN why Revelation says the serpent, the Devil, Satan, and the Dragon are the same being when you claim they are different beings?
The book of Enoch is rejected in both the Protestant Canon and the Catholic Canon because it obviously became corrupted if it was ever inspired at all.The Ethiopian Jews had a version of the Book of Enoch in their Bible only because they were isolated from the rest of Christianity and did understand that Christianity excluded that book as being inspired. I bet they did not have all the New Testament books either.
In any case, using questionable books to dispute concepts easily understood by just correlating the passages in the unquestionably inspired books is wrong headed.
Thanks for your views and for adding to this discussion, Blessing in Christ to you as well.
Hello again,
I am not Roman Catholic or Rome’s offspring [a Protestant], but a born again in Christ believer who loves the Word of God and loves to understand the doctrines of it; and without the books kept by believers in YHWH, by the Essenes [sons of Zadok] and by the Ethiopian NT Church in Ethiopia, there is no way to truly understand the message and plan from the beginning of creation, as He has revealed it through the prophets, but only endless arguing, from obscurity and suppositions, on the doctrines of the one faith, once delivered, to the saints.
A baby can be born and never come to growth on what happened to bring them into their being and even remain ignorant of what went on before they came into their being, and they can live their entire lives talking to their father and receiving his care, but never listening to their father on what he believes. That is a poor analogy, but is a glimpse of how some Christians are satisfied to just ‘believe’, without understanding what they believe and where the roots of it are laid down by the prophets, from the beginning of the world. They are poor defenders of the one faith, in my opinion, for they defend without the whole armour of God, as they have missed the message of the one plan from the beginning, for all nations.
It is my belief, by much study in the Word of God over a span of more than forty years in Christ, that those doctrines are laid foundationally only in and by Enoch, and from them, Moses went on, and never relaid them, using them as they were, as solid truth, revealed; and neither did Jesus Christ re-lay them, but went on, using them as they were, without changing them or explaining them anew, as He had already laid them by His Spirit, through Enoch, from the beginning.
One is left searching in the OT and NT, fruitlessly, for the foundational doctrines of the one faith. They are there in the Word of God, but they are not laid down foundationally in the Word, and one will never find out about that foundation of them without Enoch’s revelations of them.
The Son of Man in heaven; the lake of fire;
Sheol below earth and the different compartments there and who is there and why and how long the different groups are there;
the rapture -translation to glory- of the saints before the tribulation;
the tribulation;
the thousand year reign of peace;
the regeneration of the heavens and the earth;
the origin of demons;
the doom of the demons and why they roam earth and why they torment, afflict, seduce and deceive the sons of Adam and how long they are allowed to do so;
the trinity, or triune nature of God;
and much, much more are laid as foundational doctrines in Enoch and treated as truth already known, in the OT and NT.
On the Ethiopian Church, they had all the same books from the beginning of the Church there, as Christians in other parts of the world had, as soon as they were available, for as Paul said, the Gospel went out into all the world in the first century -to all the inhabited world/globe; just as Jesus commissioned the Church for taking it to all the world, in all the age of the Church on earth, until He comes. It went out, it goes out, and it continues to go out as long as the Church is on earth.
Again, thanks for the time to dialogue with you.
in Christ,
Terrie
You say the foundations of the writings of Moses and all the prophets came from the corrupted book of Enoch that you now possesses? That crock of self deception says it all there is really no point in any further discussion on your bazaar claims.
I have asked you several times how Satan and the Serpent could be different beings as you claim when Revelation indicates that Satan, the Serpent, the Devil and the Dragon are the same being, but I get no answer from you. So your continual statements of nonsense based on your own interpretations of non canonical books have exceeded my tolerance point for comments on this post.
By the way, all the book of the Bible did not go out to the whole world in the first century. Even today most have never read or heard what is in these books. The Ethiopians of the first century certainly did not know all the books of the Bible before there were translations of them. Your statements are just too misguided and simplistic to be taken seriously here. So, I have now reinstating your Crock-Ship. I should have just went with my first impression and saved myself a lot of wasted time.
(The following are two messages to Terrie from KenC. I had to pull back the database to before they were posted sorry.. Don)
1. Terrie
Am I to understand from your post that the 66 books in canonical scripture are incomplete. I mean, I would agree, in so far that the King James version of the Bible was not handed to Moses on Mt Sinai.
“…without the books kept by believers in YHWH, by the Essenes [sons of Zadok] and by the Ethiopian NT Church in Ethiopia, there is no way to truly understand the message and plan from the beginning of creation…” Really? No way?
Have you been given some special revelation of, as you say “…the doctrines of the one faith” that we should become aware of? There is no way to understand it all. Then you would be like God.
Consider Paul. Three years personal instruction in Arabia by Christ himself in order to set right the inadequacies of the Gospel, as taught by the disciples that Christ himself preached to. Yet this same Paul later proclaimed to the Corinthians ” we know in part and we prophesy in part..For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.” Paul, author of 2/3 of the New Testament, given special revelation, still could not comprehend it all.
I do not deny your love for the word of God, it is evident, but to say that others do not understand because they, for whatever reasoning they might employ, choose not to lend the same credence to historical documents that they do to canonical scripture is also incorrect.
“One is left searching in the OT and NT, fruitlessly, for the foundational doctrines of the one faith.”
Now I am surely not a scholar on Biblical commentaries, but where is Martin Luther’s commentary on Enoch? Perhaps there is one, I truly don’t know. Would you consider his search fruitless? How about John Calvin’s search? Or Spurgeon or Johnathan Edwards? Was their search fruitless?
I guess my quarrel is not your use of the book of Enoch or Jubilees or Maccabees or whatever it may be, for certainly there may be some christian edification to be obtained in these documents, but rather your statement that without them we fruitlessly search the OT and NT. Most assuredly Paul would not be of that opinion.
2. Clarification!
I did not mean to infer that the Gospel the disciples were preaching was somehow inadequate. Only to say that Christ felt the need, while the disciples were yet living, to commandeer Paul’s life and clarify the Gospel message so as not to have it become a sect of Judaism.
My apologies
Dear Ken C
I cannot answer to all you wrote in one post, but-
It is fruitless to search for the “foundational” doctrines in the OT or NT of the Son of Man in heaven as “God, with God”, who was to come. It is in Enoch.
Laying the foundations is not redone in the OT or in the NT, not even by Jesus and certainly not by Paul. Paul served as a scribe, who expounded on what was written, and he expounds much on what Enoch had already written.
The foundation of the doctrines of Sheol are not laid in the OT or NT, but in Enoch.
The foundation of the doctrine of the Lake of Fire is not laid in the OT or NT, but in Enoch
The foundational doctrine of the tribulation is not laid in the OT or NT, but in Enoch.
The foundational doctrine of the rapture before the tribulation is first laid in Enoch, chapter 50 [Enoch was a prototype of the raptured saints], and oracled in the Law and prophets, completely.
The foundation doctrine of the origin of demons is not laid in the OT or NT, but in Enoch.
There is much more than just that, but I am speaking of the foundational doctrines of those things, not of the mentions of them, but the actual foundational teaching.
The Word of God come in flesh is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and there is no salvation to be got by dead letters written in books, but by the Holy Spirit quickening the heart of a lost soul so that they call on the name of the LORD for salvation. Jesus said to the Jews [quoting from my memory] “you search the Scriptures for in them you think you have life, but they are they which testify of me, but you will not come to me that you may have life. He is come to bring life, but He was from the beginning, and was to come from the beginning, and Enoch wrote of Him first, before the flood, and wrote the parables for those who want to study to come to understanding by, when those parables are brought into fulfillment.
The Gospel is that Christ, the Living Spirit, God the Word, is come in flesh and ransomed us out our dead state of being -whosoever will- so that we can be adopted sons of God in His new man name. As Paul said, God now commands all men everywhere to repent, and apologetics are not the Gospel, for the Holy Spirit has to prove nothing to anyone, as His call is on every heart in this age of the Church, while He is calling men to Christ.
There are true testimonies re-enacted on the Asian connection Christian web site, of Muslims who have come to know Jesus Christ by dreams and visions, who never had anyone preach the Gospel to them; and I remember one to whom Jesus revealed Himself to, who was then born again in Christ, who did not even have a New Testament for two years after he was born again, yet he was a mighty witness among his family and friends in that time, for the Gospel of Jesus Christ, which he received by revelation.
Enoch is the first book of Eschatology -last things- and the first to write of the Son of Man in heaven as God, hidden in God, who was God, and who was to come.
A search for where Enoch was hidden for so long showed me that it was only hidden by Rome, and Rome’s children knew no better than to follow their mother, and western Christian apologists for the Faith, without Enoch, make many foolish conclusions which are proved foolish by one who has Enoch to read -along with the list Rome did allow, including the apocrypha books which protestants also received and kept in their first English translations, like the Geneva Bible and the KJV of 1611.
Ethiopian converted to Christ Jews kept Enoch in their own Bible as inspired Scripture for all these years, from where copies were got over two hundred years ago and which were translated to English two hundred years ago.
One will learn more reading Enoch with the OT and NT than they will learn with a mountain of apologetics books.
I am not a Roman and am not a child of Rome [Protestant] and I believe Enoch is inspired writing, as the Ethiopian Church also does] and that Jesus called it Scripture/writing [meaning holy] when he rebuked the Saducees for not knowing the state of marriage for the resurrected saints, for Jesus told them that they erred not knowing Scripture, specifically Enoch’s revelations, who alone revealed that the angels in heaven do not marry and that the translated and resurrected saints are equal with/companions of, the angels in heaven.
And no, I do not know all things, nor claim to.
I did not say that it is fruitless to study the OT or NT, but that defending the doctrines of the one faith which is from the beginning [not a later days invention] is just endless arguing without the light Enoch gives on all the doctrines of the One Faith, which are never, ever relaid in the OT or NT, nor did even Jesus lay new doctrines, but came to fulfill what was already written; and Enoch wrote of Him first, as seeing Him in heaven, with God, hidden, who was God the very Oath/Word who made all things by His power and who upholds all…
Dear Ken, this you said to me, and I quote: ““…without the books kept by believers in YHWH, by the Essenes [sons of Zadok] and by the Ethiopian NT Church in Ethiopia, there is no way to truly understand the message and plan from the beginning of creation…” Really? No way?
Have you been given some special revelation of, as you say “…the doctrines of the one faith” that we should become aware of? There is no way to understand it all. Then you would be like God.”
Understanding the message and plan “from the beginning” is key to the above statement, for who knows, foundationally, that Jesus Christ was from the beginning, with one plan for all the seed of Adam to be bought back by , without Enoch? The foundations are laid in Enoch which Jesus preached His Gospel of Himself from.
From the beginning of the world He was preached to come, the mystery of God for the salvation of all men: not from Moses, but from the beginning of the world, by the prophets [Abel was the first prophet of Him -as Jesus said, and you can read about Abel’s prophecy in the Book of Jasher],
Luk 1:70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
and He was hidden in God, a secret, seen by Enoch in heaven as the Son of Man there, “God, in mystery hidden” whom the apostles preached, as revealed, and seen by Enoch, only, in secret there in heaven, who was to come through Abraham by Enoch’s dream vision of the history of the world.
Now we know, and that He already revealed it, from the beginning proves that Christianity is not just another religion, but the fulfillment of that which was told of from the beginning, for all nations, by all the prophets from the beginning of the world.
Christianity was not a new religion dropped on the world five thousand years after creation, but the fulfillment of what was already written from the beginning, by the prophets “from the beginning of the world” -not from Moses; not from the date YHWH in the person of the Word put on the flesh of a new creation human being body in the womb of the virgin to come as Kinsman/Redeemer to Adam, from; but from the beginning of creation He was there, seen by and proclaimed by Enoch, to come, for our Salvation, as the mystery hidden in God, who was with God and who was God. How did Paul know, but by Enoch’s writings?, for Enoch already wrote it, and Paul did not invent or receive new things, but received the opening of his eyes n what was already written.
How did John know that Jesus was the Word who was int he beginning with God and who was God and who was to come, but by Enoch’s foundational doctrines already written of Him?
We know they had Enoch, that is no mystery, and the early Church had it and read it and believed it was inspired and wrote that it was in many places. Who authorized Rome to ban it? -Not the Holy Spirit! Who caused Ethopia to keep it? -The Holy Spirit!
Now we who know Jesus as our Lord and Savior understand the writings, since He is come and revealed, but He did not begin His the hidden mysteries of Himself with Moses or John the Baptist or with His Apostles, but with Enoch; and He completes it and opens what Enoch wrote of Him with His revelation of Himself to John, to finish it.
How do we know that Jesus was foreordained before the foundation of the world for our glory, without Enoch?, for it is Enoch who teaches us that He was, not Moses, and Enoch teaches us that He would be revealed to the “elect”, and that those elect are they who choose to live the “elect” life.
1Pe 1:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.
No one has to believe what I believe, but I believe strongly that Enoch is inspired and is esp for these last days, and esp for those who come to faith in the Son of Man/Jesus Christ, after the rapture of the Church, for Enoch is the first book of last things, and Enoch says he writes for those living in the last days, esp for those in the tribulation, to understand the days by.
Dear Ken,
You wrote a very long post to reply to and I could not reply in one, but another point you brought up was about Paul. I won’t requote you, to take up space, but Paul was with Barnabas, the uncle of John Mark and brother to Mary, mother of Mark, and Barnabas was one of the seventy disciples who were with Jesus, and Barnabas told Paul all about Jesus’ doings, but no one can come to Jesus but by revelation of the Spirit of God to the soul, and Paul had the revelation, just as Peter did [flesh and blood did not reveal who Jesus was, to Peter, but the Father in heaven did], as we all have who have been born of the Spirit: some not as dramatic as Paul [mine was very dramatic, but my husband’s was not], but no one can come to Christ unless the Spirit draws Him, and he responds.
Anyway, Barnabas was called to be an apostle to the Gentiles, at the same time, by the same Holy Spirit, by the same prophecy ,as Saul/Paul was, in the same Church composed of believing Gentiles, and that is a neglected point of the Word of God by many. Also, Barnabas left a letter also, and in it he calls Enoch Scripture, and refers to i Enoch four times.
Paul only knew what he knew because the Word written was opened to him, by revelations, for him to expound on. He had no authority to introduce anything that was not already written, and a student of Enoch’s writings he certainly was, as anyone who is a student of the OT and NT and of Enoch’s writings can easily tell.
One easy one to tell by, among the many, is Paul’s writing that it is to the name of Jesus that every tongue will confess. The commentaries tell us that Paul refers to Isaiah’s declaration of YHWH that “to me every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess”, but an apologist cannot argue that Jesus is meant by simply Paul’s statement of changing it to mean Jesus, for the foundation is missing, but he who has Enoch knows that Paul was simply quoting Enoch, as YHWH also was, in Isaiah, when the Son of Man is the LORD God of Glory, on the throne at the day of judgment, that every knee bows to and every tongue confesses to, to the pleasure of the Father, who commits all judgment to the Son of Man, as Enoch says first, and Jesus repeats..
In Isaiah, YHWH says “I have sworn [already] that to me every knee shall bow and tongue swear”, and the only way to know that He had already said that -and that it is Jesus who is YHWH there, speaking- is to read it in Enoch.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth [in] righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear [that He, the Son of Man, is the LORD of glory, as said first, in Enoch].
He said it in Enoch, and no where else, already, and He is the Son of Man who is YHWH speaking.
I guess you asked for it Ken. This person interprets all truth through the corrupted book of Enoch. Someone read it all and then tell me how a Christian or any rational being for that matter, can believe most of the drivel written after the first section?
So Terrie wants everyone to forget Christian apologetics and proper exegesis of God’s word because all can be known through Enoch. Terrie thinks we can know all major Christian doctrines through Terrie’s own interpretation of a corrupted rejected book that says things that conflict with real scripture. 😆
Since it was good enough for Jesus, Paul, Peter, James, Jude, John, Tertullien, Barnabas, Ireaneaus, Abraham, Moses, David, the royal priesthood in Israel [the sons of Zadok], the millions of Ethiopian Christians in the last two millennia, and many more Christians worldwide, then it is certainly good enough for me.
And I did not say to forget apologetics, I said without Enoch, they are not able to defend the one faith once delivered, which was to come from the beginning.
Don, you have continued to distort what I have said and to mock what I have said. I give reasons for what I believe and why I believe it.
The Satan and satans has and have never been called a cherub in the Word of God, and satan is not a fallen angel in the word of God. That is not Bible doctrine, and you continue to claim that it is, with not one word of proof. That Satan is called “that old serpent, Leviathan the twisted serpent”, the accuser, the liar from the beginning, a murderer, a destroyer [Abbadon/perdition/appolyion] and that he tries, tempts and tests angels and men with God’s permission, is in the the Word of God, but that the satan is a rebel cherub is not in the Word of God. That the Lake of Fire was made for the devil and his angels is in the Word, and those angels are never called sons of God, nor are they called holy, ever, or fallen.
The devil is the prince of darkness, and the cherub was an angel of light. The devil is active in heaven, accusing the brethren, and active on earth, tempting the saints by his underlings/his angels. I gave Scriptures that show the activity of the satans as spirits who deceive, tempt and test men, and that is not anywhere said to be one fallen cherub, as you claim.
You did not get your doctrine from the Word of God, and neither did you make it up by yourself, but you are just accepting what other men have said, without any Scripture proofs, but only suppositions called apologetics but just opinions of men.
Terri, that is nonsense. You do not know what all the people you mentioned thought about the Ethiopian version of the book of Enoch and even if they saw value in it that does not mean the whole book is scripture. Many with finer minds that you or me say that it does not qualify to be scripture but I guess it takes a heretic to believe that all the great men of the Church that disagree with them on the Book of Enoch are the heretics.
They can and have defended the faith quite adequately without using the book of Enoch and so can I. Can you defend the Christian faith without the book of Enoch? Your statement claims that you cannot.
I showed where Satan is called a Cherub in the Word of God and lest you say this is not Satan it say it is the same being in the garden that fell and I showed you from Revelation where the Serpent of the garden and Satan are the same being. I also showed you that Isa 14:12 confirms this is talking about Satan.
Anyone with a ounce of biblical discernment can understand these thinks but apparently you cannot. Then you say I did not give scripture proofs and that I get what I said from other men. By the way, God gave teachers to the church for the equipping of the saints. He has been working through men for thousands of years so the Church will gain understanding of His word but you say they are just opinions of men. So your statements are just an opinion of one woman! So who carries more weight, the orthodox teachings of the men that God uses in the Church to equip the saints or a unorthodox heretic that interprets the Bible through a heretical book?
Frankly, I am sorry I even let your crock of nonsense on this post because it clutters my blog and nobody is going to read through all your nonsense to get to anything else. If KenC did not ask you questions for you to answer your latest posts would not have been posted and unless someone asks anything more of you, future posts from you will no longer be posted. I am seriously considering deleting all of your comments for the sake of those who will read this post in the future..
Wow you folks stay up late out there. You truly are devoted to your faith.
Dear Terrie,
There’s no way I can cover every thing you commented on in this space. So I’ll just touch on a couple points that I feel are salient. First let me state that I’ve always felt the account of Enoch, in the scripture I possess, to be intriguing. From the fact that he didn’t experience death, as we know it, to the naming of his son, Methuselah (which I’m given to understand “when he dies, the end comes”, It’s interesting to note, the year he died the flood came). I personally feel, though it’s only my conjecture, that Enoch was the contractor of the great pyramid of Gizah (any serious study of the great pyramid will leave you astounded).
I’ll further state that I have not read the entire book of Enoch, only some of it, so I’m not versed in the nuances of the text. I just have not been compelled by the spirit to delve into it. I don’t know if it’s inspired by God or not. That decision is better left to people with more knowledge than I possess. My main quarrel with your argument is just this. You seem to elevate the book of Enoch to a status that 2000 years of Christian study has not. The Catholic Church (of which I am not now,nor have ever been apart) notwithstanding, God IS in control. To say that you cannot understand God’s truth’s, from the beginning, with the 66 books of of canonical scripture we have, sans Enoch, is just absolutely incorrect.
Now, the text you use to prove the status that we should apply to the Book of Enoch, by Jesus himself, I say proves the opposite. All three accounts in the gospels we have of the incident you mention between Jesus and the Sadducees (Mt 22:23-33, Mk 12: 18-27, Lk 20: 27-38) begin the same way. The sadducees asking Jesus to clarify the law of marriage at the resurrection. Two of the three accounts (Mathew and Mark) Jesus tells them, right off, that they err in scripture. Jesus doesn’t actually quote from Enoch as you seem to infer by saying “for Jesus told them that they erred not knowing Scripture, specifically Enoch’s revelations…” Now, to me, that doesn’t necessarily prove that Enoch isn’t inspired scripture. But what it does show me is the significance that Jesus himself put on it. Jesus ,being God, perceived the trap the Sadducees were trying to lay. They were trying to lure Jesus away from the truth of the resurrection and into discussion of the law. Jesus does however actually quote from Exodus. That ,again, to me, puts not only a stamp of approval, but also a stamp of significance on Moses over Enoch.
Now any student of history knows that ALL truth cannot be garnered from only one account. And any student of scripture knows that “ALL scripture is given by God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” 2 Tim 3:16. Perhaps something can be gained from the Book of Enoch, but it is not the ONLY authority of foundational doctrine.
One other point. If the Ethiopian Church holds the true foundations of the Gospel, as you seem to imply. How is it that it didn’t fall on them to evangelize the world instead of the west. Now to be sure alot of the evangelizing that goes on today,and in the past,has,in my opinion,done more harm to the Kingdom than good. But by and large the message of the Gospel has gone out to the world. Remember God is in control. His will will be done.
By the way. I would agree with you that you can be saved without hearing, per say, the Gospel. For I believe, with Paul in Rom 1:20, “For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:” I believe that the Gospel is evidenced in the creation so that no man has excuse. A popular Fox News host (that just happens to be Catholic) has claimed he has found a loophole to get into Heaven. That is if you have never heard the Gospel you are not responsible. He couldn’t be more wrong.
Don, I was working on my response to Terrie and did not see your last post until I clicked submit. I to am tired of wasting my time, even though it has stimulated my thinking. Thank you for giving us this forum to kick it around, as it were.
Sorry, but something else Terrie mentioned makes me suspect. If Barnabus understood Enoch as scripture and thereby comprehended the “foundational doctrines”, how is it that he was so easily carried away with the Jews dissimulation in Gal 2?
Gracious, Ken, as to wasting your time and being done, why did Paul circumcise Timothy, a half Jew?
And the foundational doctrines are those doctrines of the faith that are laid in Enoch and are not relaid in the OT or NT. Barnabas believed Enoch to be Scripture, and no one understands all the parables until they are come to pass, for God ordains it so that no one can claim to have done it or brought it about but Himself, but there they are laid fully, in Enoch.
Jesus is Truth, but the letters of even inspired books are dead letters with no life, as Jesus said, unless they are made alive/quickened, to one [which is what revelation/light means, speaking of the opening of the blind eyes, in the Word]. Paul was a religious zealot, but until his eyes were opened to what was already written about Christ [in an abundance of revelations, beginning with the revelation of Christ as the LORD], he was blinded to what was written and went about in his own understanding, trying to destroy the Church.
For instance, where is the foundation doctrine for the lake of fire or for Sheol below earth laid? anywhere in the OT or NT. I do not mean references to them, but the foundational doctrines that explain them fully and completely, from which foundation all other references are made, in the OT and the NT” -only in Enoch.
And where is the foundational doctrine laid down for the Son of Man in heaven, hidden, with God, who was God, who was to come and in whose name the elect would be saved? -Not in the OT or NT, but in Enoch.
John begins/opens with those doctrines of the Son of Man in heaven as God the Word, hidden, who was to come, and is come, in his Gospel, but he does not re-lay them, as they were already laid in Enoch; nor can his writing of them be considered new information from the Holy Spirit, as Enoch was well known and well used by those who waited for the promised Messiah, as history proves, from that time.
Just answer those two questions if you wish, to prove that those doctrines are fully laid out anywhere in the OT or NT. Jesus even said that the Son of Man was in heaven, when He was come down. How is that possible and what was Jesus referring to when he said no human being had ascended but He who was there, and come down???? -without Enoch, one is confused, for Elijah and Moses have both ascended, but are not in their glorified bodies as they have to return to preach Christ in Jerusalem, as the Witnesses of the Law and the Prophets to Israel, for three and a half years, before they are slain and resurrected in their glorified form and ascend to heaven. Enoch is ascended to heaven and is in the City of God which he saw afar off, and longed to go to and was granted, by the Prince of Peace [God the Great Glory, who was to come as the Son of Man] pre-flood; but why did Jesus say no human being had ascended but the Son of Man who is in heaven [present tense at that time] and who is come down?
So how is it that no man has ascended, the Son of Man is in heaven and come down to earth, yet Elijah and Moses have ascended and Enoch has ascended???
With Enoch, one sees that the ascension has to do with the throne of Glory in Mount Eden, made for the Son of Man, which no Adam person -no human being- has ascended to, but the Son of Man in heaven, the Person of God the Word, has the right to that throne and was made for that throne, from the beginning, and Adam was made in His image.
I can go on and on, but if I have not shown you anything about why I see Enoch as essential for apologetics -not essential for salvation, but for apologetics and esp for the last things [eschatology], then this is totally and absolutely fruitless, if my words are skimmed over and distorted back with accusations made that I have not said, with no one actually proving that these things are not in Enoch, and in Enoch first, for all nations, not just for the namesake people of the New Man name.
One question, why on earth do so many of you believe that Rome was elected by the Holy Spirit to ban Enoch and follow Rome on that, but not on the other books included in the Septuagint and in the Vulgate? Even in those books accepted by Rome, there is mention of the things in Enoch, in places,
KenC,
Your post of 10:29 AM is a good post, but I did not say that the Ethiopian Church had
” the true foundations of the Gospel”, as you wrote. Jesus is the Truth, and they have Jesus Christ as the Foundation of the same Church which is founded in heaven, as anyone born of the Spirit has and is a member of.
I said that Enoch alone wrote the foundational doctrines, by revelation, that were never re-laid anywhere in the OT or NT, but were only referred to as truth, ever after, without more re-laying of them.
The origin of demons, the Lake of Fire; Sheol below earth with divided from one another “hollows’ for different groups of chained angels and departed souls to wait for their appointed time in; and the Son of Man, hidden, in secret in heaven, who was with God and who was God and who was to come and in whose name the righteous would be saved and who made all things, as the very Oath of God and upholds them, whose name was secret until its revealing [revealed to Jacob when it was invoked over Jacob, making Jacob and his descendants the namesake people of God who was to come]; the calendar which God ordained, for time, in this creation; the book of deeds; the sealed book and what it contains, which is to be unsealed at the time of the wrath of God poured out -in the tribulation; the tribulation at the end of this present creation, itself; and the reign of peace on earth; are all laid out in Enoch, and from there, they are referred back to.
And I have read the Bible countless times, and continuosly read both the Bible and 1 Enoch, which correlate totally, along with the Book of Jasher [http://www.ccel.org/a/anonymous/jasher/1.htm], the Dead Sea Scrolls, translated by several authors in my collection.
Terrie,
I started to type out this long explanation about Timothy’s circumcision and then realized, what does that have to do with the Book of Enoch? So I deleted it.
Please answer my question first. Why didn’t Jesus quote Enoch as you implied he did? Thereby adding his stamp of approval as he did to Exodus? I used your own text reference to come to this conclusion. You have illustrated nothing to me to convince me otherwise.
Chuck Missler stated something years ago that seems most apropos here,
“There’s something strange about error. Once it grips the mind it seems to assume an importance that the truth never had.”
Terrie goes on and on like the energizer bunny. She does not comprehend anything that has not been defined through her own interpretation of the book of Enoch. So unless she answers my question why Revelation says that Satan, the Serpent, the Devil and the Dragon are the same being when she says Satan is not the Serpent. And unless she answers Ken’s question in his last post and does not just add another page of her nonsense here, anything further from Terrie will just be trashed.
As I also told her would happen in my previous post. Her last comment to me was trashed. I have better things to do with my time than to engage in endless circular arguments. I will not have this comment section hijacked.
Ken C,
The only place that the Scriptures teach that the angels in heaven do not marry and that the saints who attain the resurrection and or translation to that kingdom are equal with/as/like the angels in heaven, and therefore do not marry, is Enoch.
Moses did not teach that, and Jesus specifically said that they erred, not knowing Scripture/writing that said that in heaven the angels do not marry..amd that the saints are equal with, one with, like/as the angels in heaven, in that resurrection.
Yes, Jesus also said to them that they did not know the power of God, and spoke of the power of God from Exodus, but Moses did not write of the state of the resurrected [except in the oracles] nor did he write of the state of the anges in heaven.
My comment to you about Timothy’s circumcision was just to reply to your accusation of Barnabas. Paul is no more a perfect man than you or I, and he certainly knew it, so to accuse one and excuse another is not right, is it?
Have I answered everyone’s questions?
If your asking me you will not be answering my questions anymore on this post. I only posted this comment because Ken asked you the question. As far as I am concerned your theology is in opposition to all orthodox Christian teaching and the only reason your posts remain here is to show readers how strange some can get when they reject the orthodox teachings of Christianity and replace it with their very own interpretations of books that contain heresy and that are rejected as scripture by all within Christian Orthodoxy.
The book of Enoch heresy exposed. (I do not agree with the sons of Seth theory expressed in this article but the heresy exposed in the book of Enoch is valid)
Terrie,
cmon, this is getting a little tedious.
Any quick study of the institution of marriage in, as you seem to think, the incomplete 66 books of canonical scripture, will yield the answers you seem to say are only found in Enoch. Read the text yourself. Gen 2: 18-25 If it was NOT GOOD that man should be alone then it is axiomatic that it must be good for man to be at union. Since Eve was bone of his bone, and flesh of his flesh it is again axiomatic that man and woman should be at union again ON EARTH. It’s clear woman was born of man’s flesh.
Please read 1 Cor 15: 35-58. Our earthly bodies are sown in corruption but our resurrected bodies are raised in incorruption. On earth, Eve completed Adam, if you will. In heaven the believer will be completed in Christ. There will be no longer need for marriage, as it were. Jesus knew this cmon. I get it and I didn’t even need Enoch.
I’ll give you the answer. The reason Jesus didn’t quote from Enoch is even if it was from Enoch Jesus thought it not important. Again he perceived a trap in their questioning and he quickly pointed them to what was significant. The power of God at the resurrection, and quoted Moses to do it.
There is much more that could be said on this marriage issue but quite frankly I’m tired of casting pearls. As far as I’m concerned the evidence is in, case closed. Next case please.
Don, Am I off base here? Have I overstepped my bounds? This is after all your forum.
Ken I never knew you to be off base on anything you post. Terrie is just a waste of time. She pulls statements out of context from wherever she wishes to make it sound like it is supporting something in the Book of Enoch when there is really no connection. I think she has had her say on this blog so further posts from Terrie will be removed.
Thank you Don. I know your probably a bit tired of this thread, it being over a year old, and anxious to move on to another topic. But allow me this one more point please. Then I’m done.
My intention was not to disprove that Enoch is God Breathed scripture, but rather to have Terrie prove to me, using scripture that we know in our hearts and minds to be God inspired, that it is. I truly don’t know, though I have my opinion. I’m not even a scholar, only a layman, so obviously others way more intelligent than I can tell us. Which I looked back and seems to be the point of your original article.
My search for knowledge and truth continues…
Thanks
I wish I had a hundred threads like this on my blog. This post has produced 20,000 views in the last year.
I think you need to read the link I put in my last comment to Terri. Scripture does not contain heresy and error. I also do not know of any credible ancient text scholar that actually believes that the Book of Enoch was written by Enoch. Certain people think that Noah might have brought the book through the flood but that is shear speculation. Others think that this information was passed down verbally and then was written down by some unknown person but we all know what happens when verbal messages are relayed, they become severely corrupted. That is my position. There obviously is some truth in the Book of Enoch because other documents support some things in it but it hardly can be regard as scripture and a inerrant book that lays the foundation for the rest of the Bible.
I would also point out that even the Jews do not consider the Book of Enoch scripture and we both know that Israel was entrusted with keeping all scriptures until the Messiah was revealed. Even the NT was written by Jews. It is also significant that no book of the Bible directly quotes from the Book of Enoch even that one verse in Jude that quotes Enoch has major differences from what is actually said in the Book of Enoch. On the other hand, some of the statements in the book of Enoch are taken from other scriptures so whoever wrote it added to the OT already given – much like Gnostics did on NT scripture. Even today we have those building on Bible prophecy with pagan concepts and writings, for example, the 2012 neo-gnosticism.
Thanks Don for the article reference. I missed it before. It solidified what I had suspected.
I like to think that ancient history is simple. Ancient man was simple by today’s standard of thinking. There is a lot of questions but if you don’t read too much into it, the information makes some sense. Most ancient tribes believed in some sort of religion. We may connect a few dots here and there regarding fear and faith or even mysterious drawings but at the end of the day, religion was and still is being molded/used for political gain and control over the masses. We really have not evolved much in our way of thinking in the past few thousand years. If there are aliens that have influenced us, it would be easy for them to have passed themselves off as GODS. They still could even today. We know enough today that there are scientific mysteries that are just barely out of our mental grasp. It would be no great leap to figure that there are others out there that are far more scientifically advanced than we are at this point. If we could go back in time to 3000 years B.C. with our current technology, we would be considered gods also. Influence is the key. Written and translated language of any era is a problem we still debate over. Try telling an English joke to a German. I believe that if we look at historical language, we should keep it simple. What did they see and hear? Putting yourself in their shoe’s, how would you convey what you saw or heard? Some of what is described in the book of Enoch and other religious writings could explain outside influence. The bible tells a story of a war in heaven. It is not much different than how we tell about our modern wars today. Who is to say that those events then were nothing more than alien factions waring amongst themselves and the people of that time could only record it in the only way they could understand it. As time went on, we got smarter in some ways and used the historical events in a religious forum as control over the masses, deleting events that did not favor the churches message. We also know that telling the same story over enough times will corrupt the original meaning. Every war has two sides. In the end our stories have a good and evil side. And as we know, history shows that good always prevails. Or so we are told to believe. As someone eluded to; maybe Obama thinks he is God. Or maybe one day he will tell us so. Some think he is Satan. Even today we think in such ways. If it is so easily explained, just think of how little we really have evolved.
If anything man has de-evolved. Collectively we may have gained knowledge but there is little wisdom or understanding among men. Those that refuse to believe all the proofs given to us through the prophets and fulfilled Bible prophecy are a case in point. You talk about the Bible telling about a war in heaven as if you actually know the Bible. The Bible actually says very little about this war and the little that is said is nothing like our stories of modern wars.
Who is to say that those events were nothing more than alien factions waring amongst themselves? God! But, it is apparent that you do not know the word of God or you would not make it say what it does not. Read the Bible first and then talk about it.
By the way Dave, man may use man made religion to control the masses but God does not. He offers a everlasting relationship for all those who believe He is righteous and thus place their trust in Him. The whole Bible makes this clear to anyone that reads it with any understanding.
Actually Dave man has probably devolved. What would lead you to believe man is smarter today than thousands of years ago? Have you studied the Great Pyramid of Ghiza? Whoever built that structure understood Pi centuries before it was rediscovered. The face of some of the stones used are honed to within 1/1000th of an inch across the face. There is no modern laser in the known world that could cut a stone like that today.
If you trace the history of mankind back to the creation, or more specifically the source of life, wouldn’t it be more reasonable to assume that mankind possessed more knowledge of the universe? As we get further away from the source of life and knowledge wouldn’t we, in theory, become actually more stupid? Granted mankind has rebounded from the dark ages, but that’s probably due more so to the introduction of print than to some kind of enlightenment. Print that by the way has made the Gospel message more accessible and thereby increases mans knowledge of the truth.
No, I rather think not that we are smarter than they were but instead that God’s truths have been diluted down through the years by Satan. Those truths were known and can be known again.
I just started reading your blog and find it very interesting. I have been studying the last several years under Arnold Fruchtenbaum (via media products and internet). Our ladies bible study group just discussed Gen.6 recently and I totally agree that the Seth/Cain theory is weak and without biblical support. My observation regarding the question of inspiration of the Book of Enoch is not that there might have been a cover up by the church but that it wasn’t included in the canon of the Hebrew bible or Tanauch. Any insights?
Good point. I cannot get into the minds of the ancient Hebrews but they may have thought these writings were an exposition on the inspired and not inspired words themselves.
Those angels (nephilims) as you call them they are still here…they just changed their course of action and image and found ways to influence ppl without sleeping with them. They are still here. Back then they got attention of women by just showing up. How do you think they get womens attention now?? Keep in mind these dudes never die…they just re-invent themselves.
The Nephilim are not angels they are the offspring of angels and women. The bodies of flesh of the Nephilim were killed in the great flood but their spirits roam the earth. That is what the book of Enoch says about them. These are the demons spoken about in the Bible. They are looking for bodies to possess. Jesus and his followers have the power to cast them out.
What they do is go from one body to the next and this is how the idea of reincarnation came about. The New Age ascended masters are actually Nephilim spirits or demons.
The book of enoch as well as other apocryphal works were/are corrupted,even our Bible is corrupted!Isaiah chapter 30 verse 4 should read: ‘THE PRINCES AT TANIS ARE EVIL ANGELS,’ in Genesis,’ and God created great whales’ should read;’ AND GOD CREATED GREAT DRAGONS’ and in Isaiah chapter 26 verse 14 should read:’THEY ARE DEAD, THEY SHALL NOT LIVE; THE REPHAIM, THEY SHALL NOT RISE’and in the NT, in the four gospels where the heavens open and a voice is heard saying:’THIS IS MY SON, WHOM I LOVE, WITH HIM I AM WELL PLEASED’ should actually read:’THIS IS MY SON,MY ELECT ONE, WHOM I LOVE,WHOM IN HIM I DELIGHT’ also found in Isaiah chapter 42 verse 1. Jesus Himself quotes ENOCH, MATTHEW chapter 16 verse 27 and MATTHEW 25 verse 32-46. I have much more, but I won’t write it all here just yet. The book of Enoch should be without a doubt canonized and placed in our Bible to replace the book of Esther, which does not mention God our lord in any of it’s chapters!
You might not agree with some of the interpretations of the Greek and Hebrew but most of the translations experts would certainly disagree with you. In any case, the Greek and Hebrew texts we use are not corrupted. Anyone on the Internet can say the Bible should say this or that, but without providing overwhelming proof and hearing counter arguments from translation experts such claims cannot be excepted as truth. Going down such rabbit trails here will just be cut off at the pass.
Your statement also is not very logical. If the Church actually decided that Enoch should be in the Canon that would not give the Church any cause to take out the book of Esther. Esther is a story that is not only historical, it contains very deep revelation from God to Israel and the Church. A person might not understand the deeper meanings in just a surface reading but that does not mean there are none
I looked at the book of enoch for the first time. I am confused about a few things. Enoch makes references to the four seasons as they were in his time yet the bible says the four seasons were not instituted until after the flood. Am i missing something here?
Good observation. Which proves that the book was not the words of Enoch.
You do not quote any scripture outside Gen 6 where “sons of God” refer to fallen angels, so I am hesitant to accept it. After reviewing all the related texts, I believe it is clear that these were not fallen angels. The strongest objection against your view is “Where did they get the bodies to perform these sexual acts? “ Angels are or these were spiritual celestial creatures, which at times have appeared in a physical form. But this physical appearance was not one that possessed the characteristics of human nature. To say that would be admitting that angels are human beings in a spiritual state. I am not admitting that fallen angels can any longer appear in a physical form at all, but if they do have the ability to take on a physical body, it simply could not procreate with human flesh. Can a celestial being transform the nature of his body to the terrestrial? Everyone knows that the power of creation rest in God alone. Men can only perform miracles if God is working through them. There is no evidence at all that good or evil angels can transform the structural matter or substance of their physical entity from one state to another; at least not outside the working of God’s power. Cannot anyone see that there is no life form outside the realm of human nature that can possibly procreate with human flesh without a very fundamental change in the underlying structural essence of their being? And such a change would most certainly require the power of God to bring it about. There is no way to evade this conclusion. If an angel does take on the appearance and the very terrestrial nature of a human being, it must be and can only be accomplished through the immediate presence and power of God alone. This should be obvious to all. You cannot delegate the power of creation. And while we may have transformation without implying the creative act under some circumstances, that is certainly not the case here. Can the transformation of a sheep to that of a horse be accomplished without the creative power of God? Neither can an angel, which may manifest itself in some type of physical form, now, simply because of the will to do so, manifest itself in an altogether different bodily entity, one likened to human flesh. This appears to be palpably absurd to my mind.
“Take them wives of all whom they chose” does imply that some type of domestic relationship was set up and pursued? It just seems strange and odd to me that the writer would use such language if he was referring to the most sordid carnal relation we can imagine – that of a fallen angel and a woman! Also, Gen 6:4 states that giants were in the earth before the sons of God chose the women. Concerning Jude and 1 Peter, I do not see anything in the language used there to prevent us from applying those verses to the original apostasy of the angels in heaven. When Jude refers to the angels who kept not their “first state” ”original state” or “own principality”, I naturally think of angels who left a sphere of service assigned to them by God; and I am certain that a more sublime position is meant here than that of fallen angels dwelling in the earth’s atmosphere.
Jeff, you make some good points. Of course anyone is free not to accept this theory.
You do overlook the fact that the ancient book of Enoch explains Genesis 6, as does the account by Josephus and several other ancient books so obviously some in the days before Christ were told that angels took men for wives and produced mighty offspring.
I do not think angels need the power to create to become men of flesh. How did Adam fall from being a perfect being into his flesh nature? God did not do it by an act of creation. Adam and Eve ate of a forbidden fruit and sinned and they found themselves in a fallen nature. These angels could have done the very same thing as Adam and Eve. I am not saying that it had to have happened that way. I am only giving you one explanation for things that we cannot really know.
There is nothing being created when something goes from a higher life form to a lower one. That happens to be a law of our present universe. Both Adam and angels were created so that the laws of the universe that we know today would not apply to them, or perhaps more likely, there was no second law of thermodynamic in the universe before the fall. But somehow we find that creation is now under the second law of thermal dynamics and perhaps angels that sinned became subject to that law as well.
obviously there are many things that we do not know about the fall of man and the fall of angels so I do not think we can just dismiss what was said by using our logic about creation without having full understanding of how God works in His creation and above His creation.
I think your are wrong to say that it would be a creative act of God for angels to take on the form of men. Angels are sons of God just as we were created to be. They also are made in His image. They look like us without any of the fleshly imperfections and limitations. Sure they are in spirit form but Jesus in his risen state become a quickening spirit and also appeared as a physical man. He took on the very same nature as He had before His incarnation and angels share that nature.
Let me explain it this way. When a worm becomes a butterfly would you say it occurred through laws God had already put in His creation or by a special creative act of God? Might it then not also be possible for a butterfly to become a worm by another law of His creation (perhaps eating the forbidden fruit)? God does call men in the flesh worms, so the analogy might apply more than we know.
Hello!
After reading the entire blog for over 5 hours and in two days, I have to say that I think that the Book of Enoch is inspired. I think that some of what Enoch related is justified in the Bible. Other than that, I agree with Don… who is sometimes abrupt and to the point(Sorry, Don! :} My observation). Most of these posts are supposition and people are “justifying” their points of view of what was and is to come albeit intellectual debate.
I am still open to studying The Book of Enoch (all of them) in conjunction with the Bible. Thank you all for your comments.
@ Jeff,
You say, “But how can you prove that the term `sons of God’ refers to angels?” That term is used in Job 1:6, 2:1 and 38:7 to designate angels. Furthermore, the Greek translation of the Old Testament, the Septuagint, also translates the word as “angels.” Nowhere in the Old Testament is the term “sons of God” ever used for God’s people except in Hosea 1:10, and there it is obvious what it means. Therefore, I believe it refers to angels.
Also, Jeff.
Verse 7 in Jude gives us some clues as to the specifics of the Angels iniquity: “Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, [these angels] giving themselves over to fornication….” Whatever those angels did, it was the same thing that Sodom and Gomorrah did, namely, committing fornication: “going after strange flesh” (v. 7b). The angels are described in verse 6. They appear to be a likely antecedent of the word “themselves” in verse 7. Therefore, I believe that verse 7 is saying that the angels were giving themselves over to fornication.
So, what did those angels do? They didn’t keep their first estate. Second, they left the normal place that their nature and design by God required of them. Third, they gave themselves over to a gross kind of sexual evil in the same way that Sodom and Gomorrah did. Do you remember what the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was? The men of those cities lusted after the angels who were staying with Lot. The fallen angels in verse 6 did the same thing that Sodom and Gomorrah did, except in reverse–they lusted after humans. They entered into a terrible perversion of sex. The “strange [Gk. heteras = `different’] flesh” was of a different nature than theirs. Just as the men of Sodom lusted after the angels, so the angels lusted after human flesh and committed fornication with human women. That’s why I believe that the record of Jude 6-7 gives us a clue about…
I believe one of the points against the term “sons of God” being used for the descendants of Seth as being believers in Noahs day, is proven by the mistranslation of Genesis 4:25 which should read; “….then men began to profane the name of the Lord”. I’m quoting Dr. Chuck Missler here. According the Missler, this theory about sons of God being men of the line of Seth,did not appear in bible translations until around the 5th century A.D. by Julius Africanus a contemporary of (Origen). Also Celsus, and Julian the Apostate exploited this belief and used it to attack Christianity. Recently, I’ve been curious about this book of Enoch. If we all believe that the bible is the inspired word of God, written by the Holy Spirit through the hands of devoted believers of God, and the fact that this book is quoted by 2 apostles in the bible, Why wouldn’t it be canonized? Unless, it is a threat to someones authority? I read where Augustine dismissed the book as being without scriptural basis. This coming from a man who had a strong allegorical view of scripture. Throughout the NT, the church is warned about false teachers coming in to scatter the sheep, vain philosophies, doctrines of demons, smooth talking men who deceive, wolves among the sheep etc. The church is also warned about becoming apostate. The bible also mentions tares among the wheat. I believe that when most Christians read these scriptures today, they take more of a prophetical view of this stuff happenening in modern times as satan making inroads into the Body of Christ. My question is, what if he already has? and it occurred roughly 2,000 years ago? You have all of these warnings in the bible all the way up to John, the last apostle in the bible who lived to be about 100yrs old. He dies, the curtain closes, and when it reopens, there is chaos, the Believers are scattered, millions are martyred, there is one hierarchal church in Rome, all of these different men who are viewed as early church fathers who has philosophical influences, Tertullian later joined a heretical group called the Montanists. In fact, the first convening of the Council of Nicea was presided over by a pagan Emperor Constantine, how much influence did he have over this council? (It is said that Constantine didn’t accept Christ until on his deathbed) Yet, he made christianity legal along with all the other pagan religions. My point is that throughout the scriptures God has allowed man to make choices,and decisions that led him away from God, and yet, God would alter parts of His plan, and still draw believers to himself inspite of men, and the efforts of the church going opposite. Even if it wasn’t the way He wanted things to go. He still worked it according to His Glory. My view of early church fathers revolve around the church in Acts, and the apostles all the way to revelation. Anything after this, I view with suspicion, and trust the Holy Spirit to give me discernment. I also have a certain view concerning Seminaries that some may find offensive and questions about them also in this vein. Sorry for the length.
I think you make valid points but if you also believe that God could not keep his Word pure through the influence of the Holy Spirit then how can you believe anything the New Testament says? Certainly wolves did come in and mislead many but the gates of hell did not prevail against the Church to stop us from getting the books that God wanted the Church to receive as scripture.
The Book of Enoch would not even be accepted today as scripture by the most sound Bible scholars for many reasons. I suppose that was also the case in the days that the Canon was voted in.
Hi Matt, As Don stated, you do make good arguments. Nevertheless, I must agree with Don here. God surely possesses the capability to preserve His word ad infinitum. As a reference may I refer you to this article
http://www.blueletterbible.org/commentaries/comm_view.cfm?AuthorID=16&contentID=4531&commInfo=20&topic=The%20Fundamentals
Now, this is a long article written a century ago admittedly as an answer to what had come to be known as “Higher Criticism”. Furthermore, this series of articles was meant to defend the infallibility of canonical scripture against “Higher Criticism”, and thereby defend the completeness of the canon itself. I’ll only quote a brief section. The rest speaks for itself.
“Our Lord’s authority—though this is rather the argumentum silentio—may be cited in favor of the Old Testament canon as accepted by the Jews in His day. He never charges them with adding to or taking from the Scriptures, or in any way tampering with the text. Had they been guilty of so great a sin it is hardly possible that among the charges brought against them, this matter should nor even be alluded to. The Lord reproaches His countrymen with ignorance of the Scriptures, and with making the law void through their traditions, but He never hints that they have foisted any book into the canon, OR REJECTED ANY WHICH DESERVED A PLACE IN IT.” (emphasis mine)
“Now, the Old Testament canon of the first century is the same as our own. The evidence for this is complete, and the fact is hardly questioned. The New Testament contains, indeed, no catalogue of the Old Testament books, but the testimony of Josephus, of Melito of Sardis, of Origen, of Jerome, of the Talmud, decisively shows that the Old Testament canon, once fixed, has remained unaltered. Whether the steady Jewish tradition that the canon was finally determined by Ezra and the Great Synagogue is altogether correct or not, it is certain that the Septuagint agrees with the Hebrew as to the canon, thus showing that the subject was not in dispute two centuries before Christ. Nor is the testimony of the Septuagint weakened by the fact that the common Old Testament Apocrypha are appended to the canonical books; for “of no one among the Apocryphal books is it so much as hinted, either by the author, or by any other Jewish writer, that it was worthy of a place among the sacred books” (Kitto’s Cyclo., art. “Canon”). The Lord, it is observed, never quotes any of the aprocryphal books, nor refers to them.” By William Caven, D. D., Ll. D., Late Principal Of Knox College, Toronto, Canada.
Quoting Terrie – ”
I’m not sure why no one pointed this out a year ago but…
You are reallying looking way to much into this. One does not need Enoch to know how one could ascend up to heaven. You have looked everywhere in your reasoning but the first thing you should have looked for.
The definition of ascended. Which is the greek word “anabaino” which simply means to go up of own power. In Latin Literally mean to climb up. That’s all it means lady. Enoch, Elijah and Moses did not go to heaven using there own power.
What do you think they built a spaceship or a ladder and ascended himself up life Jesus did? (There are stories of people who tried to do that in the bible btw)
Gen 5:24 says God took him.
In Hebrews 11:5 It says God translated Enoch so he would not see death. Again, Enoch did not do this himself.
That is just one example of that subject. The rest you can look up yourself.
Elijah (2 kings 2:11)
Paul (2 cor 12:1-3) He was caught up. Taken. He went to the third heaven. (there are 3 heavens)
John (revelations 4:1)
Christ ascended and came back before His final ascension to heaven to say (John 20:17)
John 3:13 proves that Jesus had already ascended when John wrote this book; that the conversation with Nicodemus ended with verse 12 and that Jesus was now in Heaven.
You bring up a lot of interesting theory;s but for someone who doesn’t understand that simple concept, I don’t see how anyone could even consider anything else you have to say. You seem to want to hold on to this book when you don’t even need it. I like the book myself but sometimes I wish it was never found. People were saying almost the same things about fallen miph’s before the book was found. I don’t see how that much has changed.
As to clear confusion to the people who are discovering this book and being lead down a corrupt path, learning to just except everything as true. Many books have just enough truth to lead you off the path.
Dispensation of Angels Antechaotic Age (Genesis 1:1-2)
1 We call it t dispensation of because angels, not men, were given rulership un-der God to administer the will of God and rule the earth and other planets (Isa. 14:12-14; Ez. 28:11-17; Mt, 25:41; Eph. 1:21; 3:9-10; 6:12; Col. 1:15-18; I Pet. 122; Rev. 12:7-10; 20:10).
2 Length—from the time the earth was created in the presence of angels (Job 38:4-7) to the time of chaos and defeat of Satan in his invasion of heaven (Gen. 1:2; Isa. 14:12-14; Ez. 28:11-17; Lk. 10:18).
3 Favorable beginnings. Every angel, devil, and man of all the principalities and powers was sinless to begin with (Eph. 1:21; 3:9-10; Col. 1:15-18; 1 Pet. 3:22). Lucifer, the ruling cherub of earth, is described as “perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created, till iniquity was found in thee” (Ez. 28:11-17). This scripture and Isa. 14:12-14 picture his exalted position. With everything perfect he had a most favorable beginning and could have caused it to remain thus had he not exalted himself in an effort to dethrone God (Ez. 28:17; 1 Tim. 3:6).
4 Test. The test for angelic rulers was the same as for man, to be subject to God and obey Him in all that He commanded. Lucifer had ways to walk in (Ez. 28:15), and so did all other angels, or they could not have sinned. Sin is transgression of the law for angels as well as men (1 Jn. 3:4).
5 Purpose of God. His purpose was to test an-gels to see if they would remain true to Him before using them eternally as trusted servants. For this same reason God tested man, His purpose for testing being alike for all free moral and responsible agents. Satan and others failed because they ‘abode not in the truth” (Jn. 8:44; Eph. 3:9-10; 1 Tim. 5:21; 1 Jn. 5:18-19; 2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7).
6 Means of God in accomplishing His purpose. God used the ways He restricted the angels to walk in as the means of testing them (Ez. 28:15; Jn. 8:44; Eph. 3:9-10).
7 Failure. Some angelic beings failed to continue in the truth (in. 8:44) and the ways God made clear to them (Ez. 28:11-17). Over 1/3 rebelled, including Lucifer who will be cast down to earth with the other rebellious angels in the middle of the future tribulation (Rev. 12:4, 7-12). God found it necessary to charge them with folly (Job 4:18), sin (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7), and rebellion (Isa. 14:12-14; Ez. 28:11-17; Rev. 12:7-12).
8 Judgment for sin. God prepared hell “for the devil and his angels” (Mt. 25:41). Some are in hell now (2 Pet. 2:4; Jude 6-7). Lucifer and those still loose with him will eventually be put into hell (Mt. 25:41; Rev. 12:7-12; 20:10). Immediate judgment came by their defeat and God’s taking away from them their rulership (isa. 14:12-14; Ez. 28:11-17). They would not be pseudo-rulers of earth now if Adam, the new ruler of the earth, had not fallen and submitted to them (Gen. 3:1-24; Rom. 5:12-21; Eph. 2:1-3; 4:27; 6:12; 1 Jn. 5:18-19; Rev. 12:9-12). Man now, in Christ, has power over them (Eph. 6:10-18; Jas. 4:7; I Pet. 5.7-9) and will eventually have the entire dominion restored to him (Ps. 8; Dan. 7:18, 27; Heb. 2:9-18; Rev. 5:10; 20:4-6; 22:4-6).
9 God’s provision of redemption. In what way God offered reconciliation to angels and how many availed themselves of His grace is not revealed. This is due to the fact that the Bible is not a history of the creation, fall, judgment or redemption of angels it is of man. Whatever is said about angels, dem pre-Adarnites, and other creatures not of the present race and creation on earth, is limited to that which is necessary to reveal God’s plan for man In (1 Tim 5:21) we read of elect angels and the term is no doubt used in the same sense and elect men who are redeemed. We then conclude that angels did have some means of grace and reconciliation, and that some are called elect because they became reconciled. God, who is all good, has always given mercy to rebels of the human race, and we can believe that He was just as merciful to angels, demons, and pre-Adamite rebels, providing them with a means of grace befitting their nature and purposes. Among those who ruled, the ones who rebelled when on probation and now persist continued rebellion will be punished in the same way that human rebels will be (Mt. 25:41), sin; both classes are to be punished, we conclude that angels, as well as men, have been given some means of grace even though not by blood sacrifice.
Josh,
Thanks for taking the time to contribute those very useful insights.
All comments and references from and to Deseree Russouw have been removed from this post. Her latest posts have been all about her spiritual experiences and her spiritual gifts and are not only off topic for this post, they promote very heretical views and teach concepts that are totally out of line with the clear teaching of God’s word.
She obviously intends to lead others into believing her own hyper-Pentecostalism errors and spiritualist experiences. She is in my opinion a very dangerous person that will lead new and ungrounded Christians astray.
I certainly am not going to allow any such person to have a soapbox on my blog. Everything she claims as her mystical experiences I teach against. Anyone already believing some of the things she claimed should read this article.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/The%20woman%20on%20the%20beast%20in%20end%20time%20prophecy%20has%20dominion%20theology.htm
Also find out a little about the root of her hyper-Pentecostalism. It has now morphed into a new heretical movement called “The New Apostolic Reformation”. This article from Bob DeWaay’s “Critical Issues Commentary” should educate those that want the truth.
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue103.htm
Thank you for responding. I don’t believe that the whole book of Enoch is inspired, I’ve read down to chapter 80, and mostly all of it is fragmented severely beyond chapter 40. Plus, I believe that there actually are more than one book, held by at least 2 different religious groups, found in those caves at the dead sea.
The first chapters of the book does raise questions, and seems to settle some.z
It gives a clearer description of who the sons of Seth were, and what they did, and the outcome. Enochs account of being taken up closely resembles that of Isaiah.
Interestingly, Enoch was righteous enough to be taken up like Elijah was, and we have a full account of what Elijah did in serving God. So what all did Enoch do? We may never fully know. One thing that the book of Enoch shows to me is what many Christians seem to downplay today. (Spiritual Warfare). In regards to fallen angels giving mankind certain skills, this seems to make more sense than man slowly over millenia learning most of these skills. Is fallen angels mingled with humans, and grew these offsprings, who raised them? Were their mothers single parents? I mean, who taught them how to do things growing up? Regarding this the book of Enoch seems to explain this. Another question, In the book of Enoch, there is a part that says that these angels even did certain things with animals, it implys experimenting. Could this be the origin of the dinosaurs? Why don’t these animals fit in scripture, like the other animals do? Most of them look to be predators of the highest ilk. There simply seems to be no place for them. What if they are corrupted like the nephilim were, because they resulted from the same source that created the nephilim?
Maybe the book of Enoch is more like Josephus, a historical account of things before the flood. Personally I believe that Enoch said much more than one verse recorded in scripture. Oftentimes, stories get watered down, and or embellished over time, and this to me seems to fit the book of Enoch. Especially the second half of the book.
I also don’t want to appear dogmatic in my previous posts, because i’m not. But I do believe that more questions should be asked about certain explanations of church history. Like why is it only, a handful of so called church fathers seem to be running things regarding the church? What happened to Timothy, Titus, and those that they trained? And the many congregations that were founded by the apostles, and those trained by them? Why is the church in the hands of a handful of leaders highly trained intellectuals, influenced by pagan philosophies in some cases, and they are the church leaders. Which is also during a time when certain practices of pagan philosophy started being adopted into the Christian church? i.e. Pulpits, and sermons? I believe that the division in Corinthians that Paul addressed are a clue?
I read recently that bishop Augustine was responsible for not canonizing the book of Enoch. At first, he agreed with Tertullian, and Origen, that the book was inspired, and touted the book as being so. However; having been swayed by the sons of Seth theory, he later changed his mind, and branded the book not inspired by God. Interesting to say the least.
Matt,
Thanks for your observations. Like many have said, the book is corrupted and probably has different authors and origins. I think only the first part of the book has any real value, I agree that the animals also were corrupted. That is probably why God wiped out all air breathing flesh in the flood except for those He brought to the Ark.
On your second comment, I think grievous wolves had entered in just like Paul said that they would. It was only the written word that straighten out what was acceptable doctrine. The same thing can be said today. Because leaders in the churches are once again departing from the written word we are seeing the new rise of Gnosticism in Christendom….. but that is a different topic.
In regards to earlier comments on angels cohabitating with women:
?????????? – oik?t?rion – habitation; used only twice in the Bible
2Corinthians 5:2 “For verily in this we groan, longing to be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven”
Jude 1:6 “And angels that kept not their own principality, but left their proper habitation, he hath kept in everlasting bonds under darkness unto the judgment of the great day”
It appears to be two way street. Spiritual beings can leave their proper habitation, and beings of flesh can look forward to putting on a new and heavenly habitation.
Well we learn from this exercise that the transition doesn’t like anything other than English.
I thank you hardily for your last comment on Gnosticism. I’ve spent many a wasted hour trying to examine some supposed new truth. After a year or so, I realize I am being lead by the nose by another repackaging of gnostic heresy. I am always astounded by the intense mistrust in the scholarly and beneficial efforts of some of the Church’s greatest minds by a endlessly unwindable pack of preachers in cheap polyester blend suits bemoaning the great deception pioneered by the successors of Peter. All the while salivating in anticipation of the nights initiation of new protectors of the widow’s son. Despite the endless tongues speaking the opposite, that a single Christian today has even heard of Jesus’ invitation of salvation remains the second greatest miracle in the last two thousand years.
I never understood the concept of how the book of Enoch became fact. First of all, Enoch was before the flood. During the flood, you would think that the book would have been pretty much destroyed by the flood, and never found, rather than preserved, with the writing still legible. Another possibility is that the book was passed down to Noah to take with him on the Ark. And someone would have had to track Abraham down to give it to him, then to Moses, etc. To me, it just doesn’t pass any logical sense. Now, we know that Enoch was mentioned in the NT writings, but that could have been by revelation of the Holy Spirit that whatever Enoch said was revealed, rather than passed down in a book.
Edward,
Few people actually think that Enoch wrote the book of Enoch that we have today.The book we have today probably has more than one author. If there was a book that came from Enoch most of it is lost. The book of Enoch was not just mentioned in NT writings it was found in the dead sea scrolls and elsewhere. What is written in the NT writings that is in common with the Book of Enoch is limited to one statement in Jude. Just Because they have a similar passage does not mean the whole book of Enoch is inspired or even any of it is inspired because the passages are not the same. Nevertheless, there is evidence from several sources including this book, that there was common knowledge in those days that it was angels that were talked about in the Genesis account and not sons of Seth.
Hi Don,
I don’t remember the NT writings specifically mentioning a “BOOK” of Enoch, only what Enoch had prophesied. So the book was not mentioned in the NT. In addition, I have done minor research on the books that were found in regards to the dead sea scrolls, and I don’t recall the Book of Enoch being one of them. But maybe I missed that. Maybe other web sites claim it. My point is that it had to be passed down from generation to generation. And that there is no possible way that could have happened. So I don’t give any credence to anything called The Book of Enoch. The Book of Isaiah was written by only one person, why would the Book of Enoch have more than one author, with no one named Enoch? Dead Sea Scrolls make sense, Book of Enoch, hardly.
In regards to those giants of long ago, God created all spirits. God created the dirt that our bodies are made of. God created everything. Everything was created by and for Jesus. Nothing was created outside of Jesus. Spirits occupy bodies. Evil Spirits occupy bodies of the living, meaning that a person is possessed of an evil spirit. And those people just happened to be tall. Andre the Giant was tall. He was a gentle giant. I have heard all sorts of stories about Nephilum (My spell check sucks), but none makes sense, other than Evil Angels possessed unrighteous people’s bodies, who just so happened to be tall.
By the way, I don’t consider sources as evidence. Just saying!
Edward,
Seven fragmented copies of Enoch in Aramaic were found in the dead sea scrolls (Cave 4).
The book was written in five parts there is no reason to think all parts were written by the same author and there are difference that make people think they were not.
Since you do not believe the book has passed done from Enoch (and neither do I) I do not know what your point is? All we really know is that there was a book of Enoch before Jesus but we do not have a clue who wrote it.
But, as I said, the account of angels leaving heaven and having offspring on earth were written in Genesis, Enoch, Josephus and several other books so obviously that was the understanding of that time. I have yet to find an explanation at the time of Jesus that the Nephilum were offspring of the sons of Seth and that is the real point of the matter in explaining the account in Genesis.
You might read my article that goes into what this was about.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/aliens.HTM
Don,
I totally disagree with your take on the Giants. I know what it states, and I have known for years. I became intrigued by it when I debated Jehovah’s Witnesses long ago.
I believe the following:
Angels did not have offspring. Angels are spirits. Spirits are INVISIBLE. They never had bodies to begin with. Man kind was given the ability to reproduce, as God told the creation of man to be fruitful and multiply. Angels were never told to multiply, because angles cannot reproduce. It is impossible. God did not create angels to reproduce.
I further believe the following:
It is nuts to believe that Genesis tells us that Evil Angels had sex with women. You might as well be a Mormon, and believe that Satan is the brother of Jesus, as two spirits had sex, and out popped Jesus.
Who was the first Angel, evil angel that is, that God put a penis and a vagina on? NONE! They don’t defecate, they don’t urinate, they don’t have menstrual cycles, they don’t get sore throats, they don’t get bald, they only entice.
I think that people that USE Josephus as a source, are sorely misunderstanding him, and only interpret his sayings to conform to their beliefs about angels enjoying a night at the local strip club picking up women and that have a supply of Viagra! Come on, guys. This is as nuts as believing that the Wizard of Oz was real wizard.
The Giants were indeed the children of Seth. Why do I say that? Adam was the SON OF GOD.
Then began men to call upon the name of the Lord. For all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. If Adam was the Son of God, the the sons of Adam were also the sons of God.
When did man stop being the sons of God? At the point of sin. But God sacrificed the first to COVER THE SIN. Adam then is the son of God. If men call upon the name of the Lord, you are a SON OF GOD.
Edward,
You are just making arguments that have already been answered within the comments of this post. So I suggest that you read them.
If man can fall into mortality there can be angels that can fall into mortality. Then if they have taken on physical form they are not spirits. Angels appear as men according to the Bible so obviously they cam take the shape of men.
Your whole argument is based on angels not becoming physical beings but if they did then nothing you said means anything.
Your arguments on the children of Seth is circular reasoning and it is saying that all the descendents of Cain were not children of God. It also does not answer why there were giants and why God destroyed all air breathing flesh except what was allowed on the Ark(not just man). A corruption of genetics explains it.
Also, it was not just Josephus that gives this account.
Rather than just repeat arguments and mock, read what was said by those that studied the issue and then add to the discussion if you can.
Don,
I disagree. Angels are invisible. The invisible was able to be seen. They did not take on physical form. There is a difference between taking on physical form, and opening the eyes of man to see what cannot be seen.
I know all the arguments that I mentioned are above. So I will just bow out.
Ed
One more thing. I said that all those who call upon the name of the Lord are considered sons of God.
I never said that Cains Children were not sons of God. The NT defines “sons of God”. Evil Angels are not sons of God. They were kicked out of the house, so to speak. When you get kicked out of the house, the term, “sons of God” does not apply.
Now I will bow out.
Romans 8:14
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
The only reason that man has mortality is because our bodies are made of dirt (1 Cor 15). Dirt bodies die. Spiritual bodies cannot die. No angel has a spiritual body. The are spirits without bodies.
1 Corinthians 15, beginning with verse 35 outlines all this in the discussion of the resurrection. What type of bodies are there? Only 2 types. Dirt bodies vs. Spiritual Bodies (not spirit bodies, but spiritual bodies).
So when the two angels ate with Abraham you think he was feeding ghosts
The old Testament calls angels sons of God and says Satan was among them when they appeared before him. Read Job.
Satan has not yet been kicked out of Heaven. If that were the case, he would not be accusing Christians before the Father day and night and we have no need for a high priest advocate.
Romans 8:14 is telling us that we are spiritual creations so we should put to death the works of the flesh and live by the Spirit. It is not saying that angels are not also sons of God.
You really are adding nothing to this conversation on the Book of Enoch.
Edward,
Jesus died and rose and became a quickening Spirit and ate food and Jesus said we would eat and drink with Him in the Kingdom. So spiritual bodies can take physical form. I guess you think in the resurrection that we all become wisps? In that case, what would you even need a dwelling place for? Actually, the world of the spiritual is the real world and it is much more physical or real than this world. This temporal world is subject to laws of nature. It is the wisp in time allotted to reveal the Sons of Light. Once that is completed this temporal world will pass away.
I understand that you want to believe what you want to believe, but that does not make your beliefs true and your comments are just distracting from the topic. As I said, these things have already been discussed in one way or another in prior comments. You said you will bow out twice now. So this third time you actually will.
Don, when considering Gods word to be 100% accurate and infallible; and then reminded of scripture that says, it is appointed unto every man to die once – a physical death; and along with this reminded that even Jesus suffered and died physically as a man…. Yet there are two who have still to undergo this passage.
Enoch and Elijah.
Is this evidence that they indeed are the 2 Prophets of Revelation?
I understand that at the Rapture many will be changed in the twinkling of an eye (will not experience physical death) Yet, the Rapture also happens at the end of the age – when the Lord returns for his church (dead and living) So this time (Rapture) is very different then at any other time since the fall.
Happy New Year!
Al,
That might be the case, but some think it is much more likely to be Moses since Satan wanted his body. It might be that Moses will be raised back to life like what happened to Lazarus and others and they did die again. Also Moses represents the law and Elijah the prophets and Moses and Elijah were seen in the transfiguration with Jesus. There also is the fact that Enoch was not a Jew.
Enoch never saw physical death but neither will the faithful Church at the Lord’s coming so Enoch could be a type of the faithful Church.
Nobody knows for sure. I have seen good arguments for and against both Enoch and Moses.
Thanks Don,
…for your opinion on this as well as the “generations” theories.
I can’t wait to see it all unfold. However… HIS will & HIS timing be done.
Don,
What you just said about the possibilities of Moses, Enoch, & Elijah is to me, one of the grandest things ever.
In a way, I wish I were here on earth to see them, though, they are going to be here to bring judgment.
I absolutely love the character of Elijah, he certainly was a rugged individual, and had a great sense of humor when challenging the false Gods…and to meet Moses or Enoch, wow…but no, it probably ain’t gonna happen.
~David, you will be able to see it… not from Earth but from the balcony seats!
Ray, (comment not posted)
I am sorry you went through all the effort and appreciate the compliments about the quality of comments, but I am not going to publish your comment. I want people to stay on the post topic. You bring in too many other issues that even question foundations of the Christians faith. Christians believe the Canon that we now have was brought about through a work of the Holy Spirit working through the Church. Do a little study on how the Canon came into being before you assume that it was some arbitrary selection of books from fallible men.
You also are giving your opinion based on your suppositions that the Canon may not be trustworthy or complete, and then critiquing other commentators on that basis. I am not seeing the merit in that. Then finally you tell us that you cannot see how Enoch is NOT inspired after telling me that you have not even read the whole book and implying to me by what you said that you are not all that knowledgeable about the content that is in the Cannon.
The end of all discussion on the authenticity of the Bible as God’s word should be seen in His grace and providence.
If God cannot work on the hearts of men so that what he inspired was collected into a complete and inerrant canon, then he is not God. The OLD and NEW testaments are the product of God’s providence and to argue whether some portion is not inspired or that some book has been inadvertently left out is calling God’s character into question.
The canon did take a few decades to be formalised but it is now some 19 centuries later. Trust God to know what he is about.
Just learn to trust God.
I find these discussions with people who don’t believe the Biblical Canon or how it came about is a discussion in futility aimed at creating doubt.
I think it is obvious that man’s will DOES NOT supersede The will of the Living God.
I think people who believe man’s will is so powerful, think that God is a powerless spectator.
I’m glad Don deletes nonsense from his blog.
I have breezed over several of the comments, I do apologize for any repetitiveness. I do believe the Book of Enoch to be inspired. Noah was instructed to teach his children as have the Jews been pristine in there documentation of genealogy as it was important for proving Jesus came from the correct lineage. It is safe to say any documents would have gone aboard the ark. The Ethiopians had translated their current version from a complete Greek scroll. In Acts the story is told of an Ethiopian eunuch that was reading a scroll out loud and Phillip by Gods divine appointment gives the message of Christ and the Ethiopian is saved. Queen Bathsheba came to Solomon to hear Solomons wisdom, it is no surprise or doubts that the Ethiopians possessed Jewish/Christian literature. That being said if you do any study on the occult or satanism, it is fascinating that majority worship azazel who was ascribed all sin as well as mention other fallen that only the book of Enoch spells out. Although Enoch has nothing to do with actual occultism, it is actually Kabbalah (Jewish mysticism) that is the foundation of the occult. Masonry is also founded on kabbalah where they believe Enoch left behind secret math/science codes before the deluge therefore the coinage of the term Enochian magick came about. The Book of Jubilees denounces the inference that Enoch had anything to do with such by including that a grandson of Shem found those inscriptions and sinned owning it by writing it down and not telling Noah out of fear. My point in saying all that is there was multiple reasons that Enoch was not included in our cannon, one being it was considered “mystic” the other the later church fathers refused to believe angels mated with women because our Bible says that angels were not given into marriage, interestingle the Book of Enoch confirms this by God telling Enoch (after the fallen asked Enoch to intercede for them) that they were to intercede for man and not man for them, that they were not appointed to be given in marriage but left the high and holy heaven and defiled themselves with women. The book does not contradict what is given to us in scripture. The book was only discovered late 1700s, therefore at the time our canon was closed. It was published early 1800s. Excitingly this book confirms that we are living in the last days. Enoch says I know another mystery that this book will be found in the latter days and will be a source of joy and wisdom for the elect or righteous (paraphrase of course). Yes, our current cannon is most valuable, it is also inspired, but we cant negate the fact the church was under intense religious persecution, thousands of texts were burned and hundreds of thousands of Christians were martyrs. The recent discovery of the codex sianiticus a complete Bible dating back to the 360 or so had our complete new testament but included the Shepherd of Hermas and the Epistle of Barnabas. I would be resident to judge someone on how they feel about these apocryphal texts. I have been a Christian for years and out of praying for spiritual revival, I was lead to the book of Enoch which in turn after much studying and prayer has allowed me to witness to masons and occultist because of grasping the deception satan has used to guide people away from the truth and a lack of knowledge because of superficial Christianity. In fact, when the Book of Enoch was discovered, it was believed to be a Christian writing until dating the dead sea scrolls portion it dated 100-300 years before Christ. God bless.
For the record, I don’t agree with much that chrys said here but I thought the information or misinformation was useful to the post topic. I am not going to deal with the issues presented. You may do so if you wish.
I waded through a fair amount of Enoch some years ago after seeing J R Church and Gary Stearman do a series of videoed study on the subject. I think it was probably the inspiration behind Church’s book ‘Bloodline of the Antichrist’ that he published in 2010.
I don’t think we can base any doctrine on it. But I do think it fleshes out, and confirms the fact of an Angelically corrupted genetic line.
I believe God wanted the line eradicated. Hence the seemingly over the top massacres of certain groups of people.
But I do believe that due to man’s folly. A certain number of these Nephilim hybrids survived, and we see their evidence in the ancient myths like Hercules.
I also believe science has discovered their bones in the form of what they once insisted were knuckle-draggers. But now admit to being, not only strongly built, but also highly intelligent neanderthals.
I am not sure about if or how the book of Enoch was corrupted. But I do strongly suspect there has been a major cover-up of the truth by the established church from around the time the sons of Seth doctrine first saw light in the fifth century.
In fact, even an honest attempt to discuss this issue will bring down accusations of heresy from some quarters.
I have no comment, just concerned. How can a family endure the days ahead. My prayers for my partner and our children feel so small given these times. I truly have enjoyed reading your views as they are mine. I guess all we can do is put on our Armour of God and not be shook like reeds in the wind when the storms come. Thank you, I sincerely mean that.
Who Enoch was has always been a serious question for a truth seeker. The fact that he was privileged to walk with God for 300 years is an incredible statement. I do agree with Terrie that you do need to read Enoch to help understand the OT and NT. I’m surprised that nobody mentioned the Edgar Cayce readings when mentioning Enoch. There is much spiritual wisdom regarding Biblical understanding from Edgar Cayce, especially about Enoch. There is a reason he didn’t die and a reason he got to walk with God. May God be with you.
Eric,
I read all of the books on Edgar Cayce before I became a Christian. He was called the Sleeping Prophet and was all the rage among the New Age counterculture movement. No prophecy that Edgar Cayce made about things after his death ever came true. The failed prophecies are countless. Cayce put himself into a trace and he communicated with the dead and gave readings. The spirits he communicated with claimed to have existed on earth before the flood and claim to reincarnate. In fact, they claimed to have preexisted before they fell to earth. They are demons.
Communication with the dead is forbidden in the Bible because they will deceive and seek to possess humans.
It is strange that in spite of Cayce’s failed prophecies each new generation brings him up again. Guess some new book must of come out again that puts their own spin on his countless altered state readings. It has been going on for a long time.
The Bottom line is that Edgar Cayce got involved in the occult and was a false prophet. Christians do not get truth from the demonic, so Cayce will not be discussed further here. Cayce believed in reincarnating spirits and his readings sounded much like Pagan and Mormon theology.
Also you have it backward. You’re not going to understand the OT and NT through reading the book of Enoch. You need to read and understand the OT and NT to be able to discern what may or may not be true in the book of Enoch.
Enoch is a type or foreshadow of the faithful Church. Those alive when Jesus comes for His faithful Church also will not die. Before the end comes, the faithful will be taken directly to Heaven if they are walking with God through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, just as Enoch was taken before the angels fell, corrupted all flesh, and thus brought about the great flood.
Don: the flood makes sense in that the hybrids would have body death and again they would be just spirit…the war is unseen between heaven and the fallen…I trust God the Father and our Savior Jesus Christ will take care of all of the fallen in their time AFTER the Holy Spirit and we are taken out. I have not read all of the comments and think people do not have enough faith in what IS SAID. Enoch is there and Jews believed he was a chosen prophet and they were there, so I will accept the ancient’s opinion. THERE WERE FAITHFUL people back then! 300+ AD was the time when Enoch was removed from Rome’s readings, I sometimes wonder if they were the real deceivers of men.
Phew, this took some time to read through from the post and most everyone else (I skipped Terri’s allot). Our pastor mentioned the Book of Enoch and his description given to our Wednesday night group (small) was that the book is like a good christian book you may have on your shelve. It isn’t 100% factual but there is allot of truth and good information found in it.
I am not sure I would of ever read Enoch if it wasn’t for some of Don’s prophecy blogs. I remember telling my pastor that my faith was only strengthened by reading the book. I’m just glad that I am not the only one who though the book started strong and then went off the weeds.
Don, tell me if my thought process here is wrong please. The fallen angels and thier offspring Nephilim, is how the great pyramid structures were built, as knowledge was passed?
TheTram,
It is difficult to see how beings of our size without modern technology built the great pyramid.
I believe the two witnesses will be Elijah & Moses.Elijah had the power to shut heaven,that it rain not in the days of their prophecy,And Moses had power to turn the waters into blood [Revelation 11;6]God Bless.
Leonard,
Arguments for and against the two persons that you mentioned are made all the time
I know Don,It really does not matter,But in [1 Kings 17;1] Elijah shut the heavens and in [Exodus 7;17] Moses turn water into blood,And that is what John describe them doing.
Leonard,
That is a small part of what Revelation says the two witnesses will do. That does not necessarily mean that they are Moses and Elijah because perhaps the two witnesses will come in the power of Moses and Elijah like John the Baptist did as the Elijah of the Lord’s first coming. I am not saying they will not literally be Moses and Elijah, but there are good arguments why some scholars believe they will not be.
Anyway, who the two witnesses are is is really off topic for this post.
Im not sure if this has already been writen but the second book of peter realy helped me. 2 peter 3:16 from the youth bible new century virsion.
16. He writes about this in all his letters. Some things in paul’s letters are hard to understand, and people who are ignorant and week in faith explain these things falsely. They also falsely explain the other scriptures, but they are destroying themselves by doing this.
17. Dear friends, since you already know about this, be careful. Do not let those evil people lead you away by the wrong they do. Be careful so you will not fall from your strong faith. 18. But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Glory to him now and forever! Amen.
This is a really important passage for me now and I believe he is warning us about the scriptures left out of the bible. Because if god wants you to see them he will like he did with me when my faith was strong. But someone with little faith or someone who loves human things more than God will not understand for he is blinded by the devil and lust and temptation and all things that are evil. But I think It was important for me to find this site ( thank you Don for your great wisdom in helping people better understand) because I am on a mission to preach the gospel and the return of Jesus Christ. It will help me strengthen his words.
Ive only just started and its hard and sometimes scary because people seem to love evil more than good. I thank God for keeping me in the right direction he is my only Shepard. Stay strong in the Lord he is almost here.
Hi stephano,
I understand that you’re a new Christian so I will cut you some slack. I do not know who you are getting your information from but Peter is not warning us about scriptures that were left out of the Bible he is talking about people that twist Paul’s teaching and other scriptures. The Canon of the Bible is complete. The Holy Spirit guided the Church to get us the entire inspired word of God that we call the Bible.