Since Hal Lindsey has been saying this for forty years now it has been false labor pains. Yet, today stresses in the earth do seem to be increasing and wars and famines are certainly on the horizon. So it looks like it won’t be long now to the time of Jacob’s trouble and the birth of the promised kingdom.
Last-days ‘birth pains’ have begun
Jesus used a Greek word for the labor pains of a woman about to give birth. Jesus knew that every generation could understand the illustration. His meaning is clear. Just as a woman experiences birth pains that increase in frequency and intensity just before giving birth, so ALL the signs of His return would increase in frequency and intensity just before His return. Hey, for he first time in history, all of the signs have appeared together in the same time frame and are increasing in frequency and intensity. That, coupled with the fulfillment of the great predicted sign that Israel became a nation again after 2,000 hopeless years of worldwide dispersion, indicates that Jesus Christ is already at the door ready to return. Are you ready?
Hal Lindsey was proven false many, many years ago. Anyone maintianing that he is to be believed this many years after his “Late Great Planet Earth” is foolish.
You ought not to put this stuff on your website. You can’t be taken seriously.
I read the whole article at World Net Daily and I did not see where Hal Lindsey set a date or time as to when Jesus would return. I usually don’t read his articles, because I read all the news reports that Hal reads and I am pretty convinced that Jesus return is not far away. I will in no way try to put a date on that event, for Jesus said that when that time comes it will be like a thief breaking into your house, you never know when that will happen. I believe that H.L. is writing these articles for people who are not watching and waiting for the return of Jesus. We are all suppose to be watchmen. Because if the watchman does not sound the signal at the appropriate time, because he was asleep or doing something other than his duty, then that watchman is to be put to death. If we are not warning others of the impending doom what good are we?
I do not agree with everything that Hal Lindsey says. However, he is one of the leaders in Bible prophecy and many people who follow Bible prophecy want to know what he says about world events. The fact that the Lord did not come as soon as he expected only makes His coming that much sooner now. Things might not happen quite like Hal Lindsey expects them to happen but I do not think they will happen quite like any other Bible prophecy teacher expects them to happen either. Love or hate the Late Great Planet Earth it woke people up and many got saved through the message in his book.
Wow, man! After knowing that Mr. Lindsey has been proven false, you defend him. I’m outa here!
Hal Lindsey quotes:
(On Gog and Magog)
“The current build-up of Russian ships in the Mediterranean serves as another significant sign of the possible nearness of Armageddon” (The Late Great Planet Earth, Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1970, p. 145-146)
“Dr. Cummings, writing in 1864, said, “This king of the North I conceive to be the autocrat of Russia.. that Russia occupies a place, and a very momentous place, in the prophetic word has been admitted by almost all expositors.” (ibid., p. 52)
“When the Russians invade the Middle East with amphibious and mechanized land forces, they will make a ‘blitzkreig’ type of offensive through the area.”
(On the fall of Russia, in 1989)
“But world domination — as Ezekiel makes clear — was never in the script for Russia!” (italics in original, Cited in Pate and Haines, p. 138)
Ammendments, and still talking! Wow, man!
So it turned out Hal Lindsey was wrong on his predictions in the book you mentioned. I take it Hal has accepted that he was wrong then. But according to your logic, just because he was plain wrong back at that time actually means he can never have it right again? You think that’s fair? Give me a break, please. May I suggest you also re-read what Don actually said in his comment on the article? Think again and stop flaming.
I am aware that Hal Lindsey was wrong about the Soviet Union. Many people were. The Soviet Union fit the prophetic profile but it was not within God’s timing.
Today Russia will again fit the prophetic profile of Gog if it continues on its fascist tract in about ten years or so.
I wrote my own evaluation of Hal Lindsey in a article I wrote.The part about Lindsey is quoted in full in the next paragraphs below and I stand by what I said. I do not know why you expect Christian teachers to be perfect. No Christian teacher is. Hal Lindsey never claimed to be any anointed prophet like so many other people in the Charismatic movement actually do and are never held accountable. He is mainly singled out because he is still one of the biggest names in premillennial Bible prophecy and that theology has become a popular target. for those now preaching a postmodern post millennial social gospel of pluralistic dominionism or down right apostasy.
“Hal Lindsey – once believed the second coming of Jesus Christ would occur in the 80’s for various sound reasons. He was wrong about that projection mainly because he thought the parable of the fig tree meant that from the time Israel was reborn as a State until the second coming of Jesus would be less than one generation of forty years. Hal Lindsey also thought the Soviet Union under Communism would fulfill the Gog prophecy of Ezekiel. The Soviet Union certainly had the military power to fulfill that prophecy in the 80’s but who could have foreseen the complete collapse of the Soviet Union when Hal wrote “The Late Great Plant Earth” around 1970? Actually, we now know that the Soviet Union in a failed power grab for the Middle East was instrumental in starting the Six Day War in 1967. It certainly looked like the Soviet Union would try again in the seventies and eighties. The only reason it did not happen was because it was not in God’s timing. God, being merciful, still had others to save.
I guess in hindsight, if there was a weakness in Hal Lindsey’s projection, he placed too much reliance on the natural course of events that he observed at the time. I also think he put too much emphasis on natural events in nature that come and go such as more storms and earthquakes. Another factor was that Hal discounted things that probably have to take place if all prophetic scripture is to be fulfilled in a literal sense. For example, there was no human way any 200 million man army from the East could have invaded the Middle-East to kill a third of the men on the earth in the 1980’s. The supply lines for this sized army at that time would not have been humanly possible. Another example is that a literal city of Babylon was completely out of the picture in the 1980’s. Hal Lindsey still does not believe the prophecy in Revelation requires an actual city of Babylon in Iraq to be rebuilt. Lahaye, Missler myself and many others, believe that a literal reading of the prophecies of Revelation, Jeremiah and Isaiah indicate that the city of Babylon must be rebuilt..
Whatever you think, Hal Lindsey is a very solid Bible teacher who knows and still teaches that the time is very short. Some people like to mock him for once expecting the Lord to come a little sooner than He will, but any true prophecy student knows Hal’s valuable contribution to awakening Christians to the fact that God will literally fulfill His promises to Israel and that Jesus will soon return. People also overlook the other great books that Hal Lindsey wrote since he wrote the “Late Great Plant Earth”. Hal Lindsey taught salvation and combat faith theology in popular books better than almost any teacher in Christianity during that period. Without the “Late Great Plant Earth” that would not have been possible.
Hal Lindsey is now one of the few Christian teachers on TV today that has the guts to speak a biblical Christian worldview on Islam and all the perverted issues in the world that fly in the face of God’s Word and God’s people. Millions of people were given the salvation message through Hal Lindsey’s teachings and ministry and hundreds of thousands have found salvation. So if you wish to believe those that throw stones at the work of Hal Lindsey, you might first take a look at how the stone throwers themselves are building on the house of God. From what I see, most are doing nothing but throwing stones from their own glass houses.”
Open your eyes and observe the statements. Apparently you adhere to Hal because he still says what you like to hear. You are so obvious.
Hal makes money! (el Nasrani: Hal continues because he will not admit error. He just changes his statements! And folks like you buy his books.)
Paul, why don’t you come up with some alternatives to Hal Lindsey then? Be a bit constructive and instead tell us about biblical teachers that are not out for the money. That would be a lot more interesting to all of us than having to keep on reading your comments about just how bad and money-driven (you claim) Hal Lindsey is.
You say Hal makes money and make it sound as if it were a crime or even a sin. Do you think it’s wrong to live from the profit of sales of books you have written as a Christian? Is it not the sincerity and intention that determines whether it is right or wrong to be making money on some things? If he is indeed doing it for the money rather than God’s glory, then yes, he would be sinning. Is he? I think we can never know a person’s sincerity for sure but I am not convinced he is plainly money-driven. I’d rather be pointing my arrows at televangelists like Pat Robertson or Benny Hinn then if I were you.
Paul,
Hal is far from rich and he is still working to pay his bills at 80 years old. I like what he has to say and I wish more were saying similar things instead of the Pollyanna crap coming out of the liberal, postmodern and laodicean churches. For your information, I have not bought anything written by him in a decade but I can do what I want with my own money. Your just sore because you were waiting on a mountain top in 1988. I told you not to go there but you would not listen. So blame yourself for taking what he said a little too literally..
Well I guess that is fair, Don. I was not actually disallusioned in 1988 because Jesus had already said not to listen to anyone proclaiming where Christ would be or when he would come. But I was very steeped in Hal’s type of end times propaganda. This blinded me from understanding the major doctrines of Christ. Young Christians are hard pressed to find good teaching in the churches across America, so Hal’s brand of end times stuff Intrigues them. I was both intrigued and perplexed. I was intrigued by his gory descriptions of future events, and I was perplexed because I knew the Bible said no man knows the time of the return of Christ. I was also confused by the various returns. Later on, the doctrien of grace was fully understood, and the more significant doctrines of Christ became more important. I also learned that Hal’s type had been around for years. (One such time was in the late 1800’s when the Jehovah Witness, the Seventh Day Adventists, and even the Mormons got their starts.)
The Bible teaches us not to have anything to do with a prophet who’s predictions don’t come true. I think Hal clearly falls under this category.
(I don’t care for the comments of the person listed as el-Nasrani. He adds nothing to the conversation.)
On second thought, I decided to answer el-Nasrani. Here is a web site article of an alternative understanding of these last days. I thins Bob is a better teacher than Hal.
http://www.rbvincent.com/BibleStudies/Millenn.htm
Sorry. I THINK Bob is a better teacher than Hal.
http://www.rbvincent.com/BibleStudies/Millenn.htm
You should have read Hal Lindsey’s “Amazing Grace” It would have told you all you needed to know about grace. Also “Combat Faith” was very good. Hal’s ministry got started with his first very popular book but it did not end there. His first book did have a message of salvation and it opened peoples eyes to the fact that Bible prophecy could literally be fulfilled in their lifetime and that they needed to get saved and many did. Later he wrote more books on doctrine like the two I mentioned above that brought many of his Christian followers to a more mature understanding, at least for those who read the books.
I do not know why you call someone who is not a prophet and never claimed to be a prophet and who never said the Lord told Him anything about the timing of His coming a false prophet? Contrary to the opinion of some Hal Lindsey never set a date. He never even said that his interpretation of the parable of the fig tree and the length of a generation had to be correct. What he wrote was his subjective opinion of how end time events would play out. The link you provided to el-Nasrani is also subjective opinion. He gives an amillennial allegorical view and searches the scriptures to support his views but there is little reason to believe that he is right in his interpretation. At least in Lindsay’s book on Revelation “There is a New World Coming” It is not very subjective on the major points if you hold to the fulfillment of prophecy in a literal sense.
Most premillenal dispensational views are in agreement on the major point that most of the book of Revelation will be fulfilled in a seven year literal tribulation on earth. The only real disagreement is how each judgment will be literally fulfilled and when it will happen in that period. With the amillennial view each author puts their own meanings on the the passages that they allegorize and they all just end up doing a fine job of making it up as they go along. There is little agreement among them because everything they write is subjective allegory. That is not to say that you cannot learn anything from amillennial teachers even on Revelation because they do use scripture to support their concepts and some conclusions have some merit but unfortunately they do prophecy and God’s word an injustice. They also keep the Church in darkness about the nearness of the Lord’s return among other things.
The best book I ever read that explains Revelation is at
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/index.htm
It is a free ebook. Every time I read it I am totally amazed by the authors unique insights (I also wrote it) (-:
By the way, we cannot know the day or hour of His coming but the Church is to be watching and is to know the general season of His coming. We are not in darkness that this day would come on us like a thief. Jesus said to watch. Most that are actually doing that seem to be the premillennal dispensational believers.
Don,
Your book is well written.
It appears to almost be classical dispensation theology. I do not think you go so far as does the original or classical version in declaring various plans for salvation in each dispensation, obviously ignoring the true comprehension of the sovereignty of God in imparting grace.
However, I think you sometimes overstate your case (as opposed to going so far as to say you add to the Word of God.
“I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
John says he is IN the kingdom of Jesus Christ. In your list of “fundamental truths” you overstate that the kingdom has not yet come, but the scripture actually says otherwise.
There is no “fundamental” mention of amillennialism in Revelation – neither for nor against. I do not understand why you would include such a statement if you are establishing fundamental truths. This little error introduces an idea about you that you may consider yourself better equipped to handle Revelation than were many centuries of living and proven real Christians who came before you, and some exist even until today. Augustin and Calvin, Luther, etc. are not considered to be light readers of scripture. But I will assume that you are just passionate for your perspective.
Overall, the “fundamentals” are a pretty good list.
Another example:
In context, Isaiah is defining the attributes of Jesus christ, and I doubt he put verse two in to be used for a definition of seven spirite of God
“And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD: and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither reprove after the hearing of his ears: But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins.”
Here is another case where I think you add to what is written:
“Satan and his angels cannot touch the woman being protected in the mountains of Jordan so he will declare war on all descendants of natural Israel and all who keep the testimony of Jesus Christ all over the earth. This includes those who identified themselves as Christians in the “left behind” apostate World Church who will not renounce Jesus and take the mark of the Beast.”
Revelation 12:17 “And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”
The scripture says nothing about Jordan. It also says nothing about natural Israel. It says “…with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” Not “natural Israel and” but “remnant of her seed, which.” This is a serious problem, and the scripture make a serious distinction. Jews and Gentiles alike who have the testimony of Jesus are the ones with which the Dragon will make war – according to this scripture.
I also think you may be a little too literal when you define the 144,000 as Jews who never married.
“These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
the scripture says they “were not defiled with women” and certainly God never consider matrimony as defilement.
Marriage is not forbidden by God, and in fact, it is associated with wrong doctrines when forbidden relative to spiritual relationship to God. The papists make this same error. Marriage here must be synonomous with having an idolatrous relationship with the world. It is very similar to the spiritual aspect of marriage between the “sons of God” and the “daughters of men” found in Genesis 6.
This statement also goes too far:
“This is a completely different harvest of an entirely different crop than was the reaping of the tares and wheat. This reaping is not about wheat or even tares it is the harvesting of fermenting sour grapes. This judgment comes after the wheat is harvested and threshed during the great tribulation.”
Matthew 13:24-30 “Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”
Matthew 13:36-43 “Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
Jesus very clearly says “the harvest is the end of the world.” You went too far in making this statement!
Later you also express:
“This is a parenthetical passage between the sixth and seventh vial that says that Jesus will come as a thief. Some think it is referring back to the pre-tribulation rapture but I do not. Before the final battle takes place and while the Beast is gathering his forces, God will send his angels to gather all those who are looking for Him before the final vial is poured out. This seems to be the gathering spoken of in Matthew and Luke.
Mt 24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Mt 24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
Lu 17:36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
These here have no white robes so it is not those seen in heaven who came out of the great tribulation (Rev 7:14). ”
I think you are close to expressing the truth, because Jesus reveals to the apostles that these that are taken become a corpse to be eaten by the birds. I believe these that are taken are as those taken during the flood – taken to be killed as the flood victims were drowned – while God’s people remain (Noah remained) and the wheat shines.
This is another case for the need to keep all scripture in context.
I agree with you that the papistic institution is represented well in Revelation. You may want to add that the colors identifying this false christian institution are scarlet and purple without the blue that God has in his true temple. The lack of the blue further indicates that this is a false christian movement – very deceptive by the nature of its colors representative of its doctrine.
The literal interpretation of the following verses would only conclude that the bride is the New Jerusalem. You have again overstated from your perspective. It does not matter whether we understand or agree. The verses say what they say.
Revelation 20:9-10 “And there came unto me one of the seven angels which had the seven vials full of the seven last plagues, and talked with me, saying, Come hither, I will shew thee the bride, the Lamb’s wife. And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,”
Again I caution you to consider the great past Biblicists that gave us such a great heritage of Christian actions. Perhaps your passion has caused you to go too far.
You really concern me when you write:
“I have another solution as to where the water goes. I do not believe the Holy City is on the new earth at all. Let us assume the Holy City is a pyramid, the throne of God and the Lamb would be the capstone of this pyramid; the water of life would flow down from the throne through the city to the tree of life and then back to the throne by some unknown force.
“What is shown here is taking place totally within the Holy City. The passage does not say that water actually flows to the new earth at all. The whole system might be a closed system within the Holy City. We cannot even assume that physical laws will be the same in this Holy City. The Holy City will have any physical laws that God wants it to have. There are likely to be more than four dimensions in the Holy City. The Holy City may have real physical manifestations that will demonstrate eternal spiritual truths. The spiritual truth in this case is the living water of the Holy Spirit flowing from the throne of Father God and His Son to the nations.”
There is absolutely no need for physical symbols to represent spiritual truths when the fulness of the spiritual arrives. This is a real reversal of the plan of God. The Old Testament, scripture declares over and over again, was the physical symbolism (“type”) for the spiritual reality found in Christ.
I would say this is beyond over zealousness.
Please consider.
Here is a man that maybe able to explain Amillennialism to you. I suggest that you read it so that you can have a better understanding of what Amillennialism really is. Then you could better show where it is wrong with words that go beyond the uninformed sounding description of “allegorization” and “spiritualization.” even dispensationalists “allegorize” and “spiritualize.” We all must use these techniques or scripture will not make sense.
Tony Warren has an informative article at
http://members.aol.com/twarren13/amillennial.html
He also is very passionate in his writings.
Thanks Paul (I think)
You must be a speed reader.
You don’t seriously think I am going to write a defense of my book in a post about an article that Hal Lindsey wrote do you?
I might cherry pick a few points because I am about out of time today and I don’t have the luxury of time any day of the week anymore.
here is what I wrote in my introduction as to my dispensational view
“I am a modified dispensationalist but I am not sure which handle (Classical or Progressive) that one reading this commentary would want to place on me. I expect the Progressive would say I am Classical and the Classical would say I am Progressive. I find the theology of the Classical dispensationalists to be the sounder of the two on most points, but I also think they have missed some important points the Progressive dispensationalists have picked up on. The Progressive, on the other hand, fell off the scaffolding in their attempt to build bridges between theologies that cannot be bridged. I say I am a modified dispensationalist because I do not agree with a few of the usual dispensational views. Especially, on who it is that makes up the bride or body of Christ.”
No modern dispensationalist sees different plans for salvations in different dispensations of time. That is a false accusation that people who do not understand dispensational theology claim. All dispensationalists will tell you that they believe that man is saved by grace through faith in any dispensation of time. The view is that God worked in different ways in different dispensations of time to get man to trust in Him with the last dispensation being a perfect kingdom but mankind fails and rebells in each of them.
The Kingdom has not yet come physically. There will be a literal Kingdom on earth.
Actually I think amillennial theology is a mistake and all the men you mentioned were mistaken. Unfortunately when they rejected the allegorical view of the scriptures from Gnosticism they retained it for Bible prophecy. Lets face it, they were so far removed from end time events that they could not possibly understand prophecy in a literal sense. We can understand it today because we can see all the pieces fitting together to literally fulfill Bible prophecy. They needed to make it allegorical for it to make sense to them or they just ignore it. They did both. We do not. I do not think God worked in men to correct it because they had enough to work on. A correct prophetic view at that time would not have changed much.
You know sometimes you have to add 1 and 1 together and come up with two.
Petra is in Jordan and it has Jewish history as a fortress refuge city .
Jesus said when those in Jerusalem saw the abomination that causes desolation that they should flee to the mountains because the worst time on earth would come. Other passages such as Daniel and Revelation and the other prophets define who is fleeing and for how long and where. You have to correlate passages to come up with any sound conclusions. That means a person really need to know all the Bible prophecy passages in the Bible, take them in a literal sense and make sense out of them. If your going to allegorize the passages how can you correlate them with the other passages you allegorized?
I don’t remember but I think I said somewhere that the 144,000 Jews did not have to be literal virgins. In any case, if I said they were that was just my opinion. Obviously when you try to explain each Revelation passage your going to have to come up with some opinions. If your going to be critical about something, be critical about something that really matters.
The harvest is a process at the end of the world it does not happen in one day. There is a wheat harvest and there are the crushing of the grapes. You say I went too far but I read nothing that said I did. So I stand by what I said. Same with the next passage that you say is near the truth but you do not adequately explain why you even mention it. I am out of time all the rest goes pretty much the same way. As for the Holy City statement I said in the book that what I said was all conjecture. Conjecture is just that.
Look, anyone can sit there and critique someone else’s book by their own beliefs. No two people are going to see all these passage the same. I certainly am not going to fall on my face before someone who thinks that the amillennnial allegorical view of Bible prophecy is correct. Who made you the ultimate expert on these things anyway? If you are, you better tell all the other hundreds of people that have written about Revelation so we can all conform to your views.(-:
I need no explanation of amillennial theology I wrote my own article contrasting the two theologies.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/amillennial.HTM
Anyway thanks for looking over the book. Many would not have even done that and thanks for the work you put into your comment and your civil tone. Too many people today want to attack the person rather than discuss the issues. I hope you do realize that we really cannot go on discussing these theological issues on a post on a article that Hal Lindsey wrote. I don’t have the time for this anyway and my views on amillennial theology are pretty much covered in the link above and were written so I would not have to keep arguing dispensational verses amillennial issues.
I do have to run.
blessings,
Don, thanks for the pleasant acceptance of this amateur’s opinion. My eschatology is being formed.
Understanding that we are off topic, though I wanted to respond to your invitation to read your book (I do read very fast using a computer – with books I am slower. This is how I can use very little time to read so many of the available historical documents of Christian folks who have long since gone to glory. It makes me wonder why so many preachers are so ignorant of history of the Church. I was thrilled when I first read the translated words of Athenasius.)
I did begin to read your article on amillennialism. Please read Tim Warner’s article. I think you have missed some very important points. Amillennialism is much deeper than you indicate in your article. You don’t have to agree – I basically have not yet agreed with any particular eschatological system because each one has some problems that aren’t overcome. Obviously God does not want us to know all this as clearly as we would like.
This is good (of course, it is of God) because it gives us more time to focus on enjoying Him in Christ, studying Christ’s Word, and living for His glory.
Hope this is short enough.
Oh Yes! I must add to my last sentence: And preaching the gospel to all creatures!
I will try to look at the article. I really am stressed for time. I am on the computer about 12 hours everyday sometimes more. People send me links, documents and books to read all the time. It simply is not possible to read them all. After 35 years of this my theology is pretty well set anyway. I am sure there are quite a few good amillennial points that I do not address in my article..
I agree with what you said. I think quite a bit of truth can be found in most Christian theologies. On eschatology, I think it all depends on from what point of view you are looking at the scriptures. If you are looking at the scriptures just from the eyes of the Church covenant amillennial theology makes sense. There are spiritual fulfillments to the spiritual Kingdom but if you are looking at the Bible through a broader lens that requires literal fulfillments to literal statements of the prophets then only Dispensational premillennial theology answers all the questions. At least for me. I know that statement also is a broad generalization because there are many different sub-theologies and diverse views.
Keep up the studies, You can’t go wrong by trying to find understanding of God’s word. If you want to contact me about something in the future. My email address is always on the bottom of my http://www.thepropheticyears.com website and in the “about the author” page on my blogs.
Paul, I’m glad you changed your mind and decided to answer me after all. I was rather put off by the way you responded to this thread especially after there was a rather nasty discussion in another recent thread relating to Israel and I’m afraid this lead me to misjudge you.
Thanks for the link. I’ve taken a look at Bob’s website and gone through some stuff and seen some thought-provoking and interesting things on there. I’ve been reading so much on eschatology lately that I decided to give it a rest for a couple of days but I certainly will read the specific article you linked to very soon, I promise. I’m now reading Bob’s thoughts on the Israel-Hizbullah conflict. It’s interesting to see that he’s raising some of the same questions I have quietly been asking myself too.
When I was a kid I was already fascinated by Revelation and current events. I read Revelation and also the book of Daniel several times and tried to interpret it. That was before I became a Christian. I never interpreted it as being allegorical. Soon enough I did realize that a lot of the book used symbolic language such the passages where it mentioned the “dragon” and the “woman” but that it does refer to real entities so the underlying meaning is real. Back then I didn’t really know much at all about the rapture of believers and I was mostly interested in the tribulation, which really fascinated me, and the letters to the seven churches in the first few chapters of Revelation.
I remember that when my dad told about a premillenial rapture like what Don believes in, I had a hard time believing that. I never even thought of such a thing as a rapture, I thought believers would go through the entire period of the tribulation without a rapture at all. However, I did always believe that God does still have a plan with physical Israel and that this would play a very important role in end times. I was aware the Roman Catholics teach replacement theology but I was very surprised to learn many others do as well. I for one had never had the impression that all the sudden the Church had replaced physical Israel as God’s chosen people. I began to read a lot on the internet and we went to a church for some time where there was an interesting series of bible studies on the books of Revelation and Daniel that I learned from a lot. Observing the times and studying other religions too, particularly Islam and its eschatological views, have lead me to believe that dispensational premillenialism like Don teaches really is the most biblical and consistent interpretation of biblical end times.
Now if you confess that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation and that He is Gods only begotten Son, then I believe you are a Christian and I consider you a brother. Your views on the end times are not essential to your salvation. However, I do belief that it is important that we study end time prophecies because through these fulfillment of the prophecies and His promises, God manifests His greatness and love to us and the plans He has. Particularly in these days, I believe it’s important to study end time prophecies because certain interpretations have been taken to the extreme and along with other false interpretations have lead to apostasy within the Church or even heresy, e.g. the Kingdom Now movement, Jehovah’s Witnesses, etc.
I agree that Church history is important and has left us many good and insightful Christian writers that seem to be forgotten these days. Personally I really appreciate the writings of the Puritans. I may not agree with all of their beliefs or practises entirely but they were certainly Christians and could serve as an example to us. I think doctrine is important and that we should study the Scriptures. But I agree that it’s wrong to strife and bash each other. Take the Arminian and Calvinist issue, for instance. I tend towards the Calvinistic view but don’t agree with all five points (“TULIP”). I respect the Presbyterians (like many of the Puritans were and also the author of the website you gave me) very much even if I don’t agree with the amillenial view many have, or infant baptism. At the same time I don’t agree with the Pentecostals on the issue of the gifts of the Spirit and their Arminian tendencies but there are certainly many true believers among them and I respect them. So I think we should read the Bible for ourselves first and ask for God’s wisdom and insight, instead of learning about doctrines first and only then read the Bible for ourselves – which is an error many of us Christians make.
Okay, this is a lot longer than what I had originally planned for. I hope you don’t mind. I’m still a young Christian myself and I’m also still learning on many issues and trying to do so by reading the Bible for myself. I guess that makes two of us! And I admit I’m not always good at explaining how I understand and interprete certain things and Don certainly is the most qualified person to answer to you here.
May God be with you on your journey.
God bless,
el-Nasrani
ps: I know of a very interesting website that explains many biblical issues in a readable manner. It deals with lots of issues and also includes a section on the end times, check it out on http://www.gotquestions.org. They have a statement of faith so you can know what interpretation they’re writing from. It’s not a substitute for reading the Bible yourself of course but still a great reference.
pps: sorry for being being off topic here as well but I found I had to write a reply..
el-Narani, the conversation sure took a different and good turn. I understand you better now. I could be ruthless at times because of particular wrong teaching in the past. I started with a very dogmatic dispensational / Arminian understanding. I know that I weighed all scripture by those “standards” and I missed understanding God’s Grace. I also missed the peace Jesus told me I should have. Arguments with Calvinists and Amillennialists, the King James issues, participation with charismatics, etc. wore me out to the point I gave room for studies of the Reformers, and then the writings of earlier Christians. It was actually at the height of a passionate argument against Calvinism that God changed something in me and His Sovereignty became more important. I was refocused on Jesus, His Grace, and eschatology meant much less. (I still think it is important.) I finally dared to ask the question that I was instructed not to ask – what is amillennialism, post-millennialism, pre-millennialism, and yes, even dispensationalism. I learned some facinating things. Now I am not so dogmatic. But I first became very angry with the folks – so many of them – that “forced” me to interpret scripture by their rules. Though I know they were well meaning, they actually lied to me about Reformers such as Luther and Calvin. These were Christians and they slandered them!. I came across the arguments between Luther and Erasmus and between Whitfield and Wesley. And the patterns they set seemed to agree with what I think Christians should do. Argue passionately, but recognized that each one has only what God has revealed to him. (Now I know dilligent study allows more to be revealed to a point.)
I am writing too much. (Thank you Don for allowing this.)
So we understand Christ’s prayer for believers, that we become one in Him, maintaining the truth of Christ’s doctrine. This is so good!
I would not say that all Hal has been talking about since “Late Great” has been “false” birth pains. I remember when my wife was having preliminary contractions before she was “officially” in labor. These were called “Braxton Hicks” contractions and they prepared the way for what was to come.
Hal (and others) made the honest mistake of assuming that a “generation” (as in “this generation will not pass away before everything is done”) meant the general amount of time between one group of people and their children coming of age — think the “baby boomers” and the “gen-X-ers.” It was a reasonable idea, but it turns-out that that interpretation is not what God meant. So the next interpretation is that “generation” is the “biblical” lifespan of a person is stated to be 70 years (Psalm 90:10); or perhaps the average lifespan of today’s Israeli, which is about 80 years. There is also the timing of the start of the generation: was it when Israel was born in 1948 or when Jerusalem was reunified in 1967?.
Nevertheless, I think it is obvious that we (who are middle-aged) are the “Terminal Generation,” and Hal Lindsey has been a commendable “Watchman on the Wall.”
Brent,
Thanks for your input. I agree with what you said. When I was saying false birth pains I was not implying that they did not have anything to do with the birth of the Kingdom. I simply meant they were not the start of the final contractions of birth.
I also agree that the generation that would not pass away probably means a lifespan and again I agree that we do not know if it started in 1948 or 1967.
We are the terminal generation and if anyone thinks different they ought to take a good look at the condition of the world. The world could not possibly go on for more than a couple of more decades without self destruction or judgment..
I also commend Hal Lindsey for being a commendable “Watchman on the Wall” I hope he gets to live long enough to see what he talked about for so long begin to come to pass, but only God knows if he will.
In any case, I am certain that this person that too many Christians love to hate will get a “well done” from the Lord. The critics should be as fortunate.
I still have a problem with Hal. Have you checked into his life – does he lead a Christian life? There is some questions concerning marriage vows that may be an issue. (Four different wives, three after confessed Christian conversion.) His promoting on TBN of the movie The Omega Code is questionable. These are not suggestions that necessarily disqualify Hal. (I don’t know any perfect Christians.) Yet they are legitamate concerns. I think there are better dispensational teachers. (H. A. Ironside is one. Yes, he is from the past, but that is a good thing. He can’t change his story.)
I also have concerns about his personal life they are legitimate concerns. Since I know little about the details I do not address his marriage problems. I was sorry to hear that he went back to TBN. I think that was a major mistake he seems to lack discernment in some areas of life. I think I asked his staff once to put up a link to my website because I have a link to his. I received zero response. Very bad!!!
I agree without question that there are better premillennial dispensational teachers, Ironside, Pentecost, Walvoord, Ice and others. I do think Hal made it easy for those who knew little about premillennial Bible Prophecy to understand the major concepts without taking theology courses.
I do not think he has added much to the subject over the last few decades but then again he is 80. I think his major strength now is as a watchman who keeps us informed on Middle East implications.
I too appreciate how Hal has made end-times prophesy approachable by the layman. I think it was Hal’s “Late Great” book and Keith Green’s “Last Days Ministries” that introduced me to prophesy shortly after I asked Jesus into my heart in the early 80’s.
I’m disappointed to hear of some of Hal’s personal issues. The first thing that came to mind was some of King David’s indiscretions, and then some of my own. Wow. I am so glad Jesus cared enough about each of us to take our place of shame.
As far as teachers go, I am not a prophesy expert, or “buff,” but I have read some of Ice’s work and have appreciated his perspective. Lately, I’ve really been blessed by Jack Kelly’s insights (gracethrufaith.com).
I can say that I am very weary of this world. There is nothing I would not gladly leave to be with Jesus in His eternity. I have a lot of responsibilities, and I’m rather like a slave — a very well treated one (by overall world standards) — but much like a slave nonetheless; I don’t really work for me, and what I earn is the Lord’s anyway, so, in a way, it doesn’t matter that I see very very little of it. This world has nothing to offer me, I am sick of sin, and my personal contribution to it. I feel very much as Paul described: “who will save me from this body of death?” /weary-whiney-rant-off
Anyway, sorry to ramble!
Don, thanks so much for responding personally to my comment. I’ve really enjoyed reading your site, and I often check-out your blogs! 🙂
Thanks Brent,
Jack Kelly is very astute and is a prolific writer. His website and mine share reciprocal links. I do not agree with every one of his conclusions but that is par for the course in Bible prophecy on the minor subjective points.
If it were not for Hal’s inspiration I might not be doing this today. His “late Great Planet Earth book was instrumental in me finding the way to salvation and started my interest in Bible Prophecy. It seems most of us fail in one area of our lives but God can use us in spite of our weaknesses if we seek His mercy and move on to do the work He has for us.
But has Hal repented? Certainly not publicly – and he is a public figure. I also do not agree that he necessarily has done “good” with his version of prophecy. He is very dogmatic, and this dogma has harmed many in the sense that his words have been used instead of God’s Word to comprehend the Christian life. There is a difference in the teachings of Hal Lindsey and H. A Ironside, or even Don Koenig. That difference is specifically the major subject. In the better versions, Christ Jesus is the main subject, and the authors always come back to him as the central theme. Hal seems more to be concerned with the prophetic outcomes, and Jesus is somewhat of a side issue – even though he is the subject that returns. Tim LaHaye does much of the same thing as Hal Lindsey. Many years ago I read Ironside’s book on Revelation and immediately there after, read LaHaye’s book. This difference was so obvious. Ironside always concluded every thought with Jesus, LaHaye with the outcome. Ironside was not chaining my thoughts concerning the prophetic interpretations, LaHaye was! Lindsey does also.
Paul,
Has Hal repented from what? We do not know if he was even to blame for the personal issues and even if he were why should he expose his personal life to the whole world by confessing who knows what? Let those who are in his local Church circle worry about correcting him if he needs correction and repentance. As far as I know he has not done or said anything publically that he needs to repent publically for. Now Pat Robinson makes public prophecies he claims came from God all the time that do not come true. He needs to repent publically.
Yeah, Hal is dogmatic about what he believes but that sort of goes with the territory. What strong Christian leaders of the past were not dogmatic about what they believed?
What you are saying about his not presenting Jesus is your own opinion, It certainly is not a view shared by his followers. I found plenty in his books that talk about Jesus Christ. Like I said his first book was instrumental in my own salvation and hundreds of thousands of others also were saved so he must have said something right. Jesus is the focus of all his books. Perhaps he does not talk about Jesus on every page but anyone who reads his books know that he teaches fulfillment of prophecy in Jesus. Also Hal has many books and they cannot be broad brushed. “Amazing Faith” and “Combat Faith” is all about Jesus.
One criticism I do have is that in his books he uses human explanations of probable supernatural events and makes man bring judgment upon himself through his own wars or the like. However in most of the Vial and Trumpet judgments there simply may be no human explanation. Most of them probably are supernatural acts of God on an unrepenting world..
I really do not consider LaHaye to be a top expert on Bible prophecy. I believe all his books on Bible prophecy are limited to Revelation. He has written one of the best commentaries on Revelation that I have read but I would think that this was more of a research effort where he got the information from the works of several others than his own original theology. As far as I know he has not written on more broad topics of Bible prophecy. So I do not even put him in the same category as people like Ironside, Pentecost, Walvoord, Lindsey, Ice, etc.
Paul, I have great respect for the reformers myself. I believe in the principle of Sola Scripture and try to live by that. I too believe very much in God’s sovereignty. However, I don’t hold everything the Reformers said as truth. They too were fallible men, no less than the Catholic popes are. I may be “reformed” in a number of aspects in my faith but since I believe in “Sola Scripture” I believe we must study the Bible and not again make the mistake of blindly following one section of Christianity, and that includes the Reformed church. The Reformers and many others did not pay much attention to Revelation and didn’t take it literally. But just because they didn’t, I don’t think I should do the same. I definitely don’t agree with those who bash John Calvin and mock at the Reformed churches. However, at the same I don’t consider myself a “Reformed” Christian and I don’t allign with any specific denomination.
I think historical Christian writings can be a blessing but only if you read them in the light of the Bible and in a responsible and sometimes critical way, keeping in mind the context and times in which they were written and by whom.
I read the article. I have to say I find it very unconvincing. The author focuses on Revelation 20 and it seems as if he bases his entire interpretation of Revelation on that one chapter alone, using a select few Bible passages as those in Matthew and Hebrews to prove that somehow now is the millenial reign of Christ and Satan is bound already. If Satan were really bound, the entire world would long have gone Christian. Islam would not have emerged and if it still did it would most certainly not be the fastest growing religion in the world today.
And What about the letters to the seven churches, the seals and the trumpet judgments, for instance? What about the Beast, the false prophet, the mark, the two witnesses? Why accept the Bible as truth and then dismiss almost all of the book of Revelation as pure allegory? Interpretations like these that debunk 95% of Revelation or call it “allegory” and neglect the Old Testament prophecies or alter their true meaning to fit their narrow interpretation of Revelation, have lead to terrible persecutions, hatred and injustice on behalf of so-called Christian churches claiming to be the right hand of God and His representatives on his earthly kingdom. Now I know that just because one holds to a non-dispensational view of Revelation, that doesn’t mean one is necessarily in favor of all of that. Again, the interpretion of the Revelation is not essential to one’s salvation. However, I think it does lead to some major misconceptions such as the idea that Christians should “win the world” for Christ, that we can “change the world” and so on. That is in my opinion a profoundly unbiblical idea.
The Bible tells us to resist the devil (James 4:7). If he were really bound, we would not have to resist him. St Paul also repeatedly mentions Satan. Indeed “some have in fact already turned away to follow Satan” he writes in 1 Timothy 5:15. The truth is that God’s kingdom is not of this world, and the Bible calls upon believers to abandon the ways of the world. It does call upon us to testify to the lost of the world, not to regain the world part by part for Christ, but so that these believers may be freed from the chains of this sinful world and be admitted to GOd’s heavenly Kingdom. Also check John 18:35-37. It deals with the issue of the very nature of Jesus’ kingship and that of His Kingdom. Worldly religions like Islam claim dominion over the world, I believe Christianity is in fact the exact antithesis to these false religions.
Anyway, I don’t want to hijack this thread or anything, just clarify and give a justification for the reason I agree with the dispensationalist view. Like I said, Don is by far the most qualified person to explain a number of issues here.
God bless!
el-nasrani
“Like I said, Don is by far the most qualified person to explain a number of issues here.”
Maybe not, you just did an excellent job
el-Nasrani,
You think you may have missed much of the Tim Warren article. (Please don’t shoot me yet!) I believe that in order to properly debate, one needs to thoroughly understand the opposing view from the opposition’s perspective. With Christian debates, please keep in mind (and you have alluded to this), the opposition is not typically surface only in their positions. They usually have thoroughly looked at scripture. Folks such as the Reformers were willing to die for their understanding of the scripture. They were persecuted for their belief. They relied more heavily on scripture than do most in the church today. Allegory is not a bad word, in fact, it is used in the Bible by Paul. Looking again at amillennialism, from the majority historical church perspective, “first resurrection” can refer to two things: 1) the resurrection from earth to the presence of Christ (this is the more literal interpretation looking at the context) and 2) the resurrection into eternal life the moment of regeneration – salvation. There is scripture to support this either of these concepts. Eph.2:5-6 “Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:”
Col.2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.” This may not be what is meant in Revelation 20, but the Reformers were not fly-by-night Bible students. They had rejected the false papal religion, and they paid for that rejection. They suffered for Christ. They are the means that God used to allow future generations (you and me) to worship in spirit and in truth! I for one still consider their interpretation very deeply.
As I said before, I am not fully convinced of any one eschatology. But I normally discount the work of men who build a straw man out of their opponent’s view and then destroy it as if they were great warriors. (I am not saying you did that.) It matters not how much I respect their other work.
You know historical premillennialism is typically not argued because it is not well understood by dispensationalists, nor is post-millennialism for almost the same reason. Yet these two systems also have a great historical following. I don’t agree with either system, but in studies presented by the defenders of each system, I have had to admit that they were not developed without a great dependency on scripture. (Historical pre-millennialism makes no separation between the saved part of national Israel and the saved part of the Gentiles. This forms the whole church. The old testament Israel was called the church in the wilderness in the new testament writings. It is said that Moses knew Christ. Yet it expects a special work in the salvation of national Israel – just not apart from the whole church.
So I am just saying that due attention should be given to these historical systems in light of the system’s supporters scriptural understanding.
I said earlier my initiators into Christianity forced me accept the dispensational / Arminian model (though now I am convinced that none of them actual understood either dispensationalism or Arminianism), and it created a great lack of peace in me. I am free now and intend to remain that way – free indeed – free in Christ Jesus..
Paul, I fully understand what you mean. I think it’s wrong to force anyone into believing one particular interpretation. The point of being a Christian is that you can have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ, our Mediator. God looks at the heart of each person individually. Folks who force others to believe “their” version of the truth are obstructing your freedom as a Christian and to some degree their behavior isn’t very different from that of certain cults. I’m fully with you on that.
So I’m glad that you found peace and freedom in Christ. That’s wonderful! But at the same time, consider this: if these people at church forced you to believe one particular interpretation without allowing you to freely find out the truth for yourself, that was wrong. But the fact that their method was wrong doesn’t necessarily render all their interpration invalid? After all, you call these people your “initiators” into Christianity, so that means that they did in one way or another lead you to accept Christ. Now I don’t agree with Arminian teaching myself, the supremacy of the KJV, and so on. I suppose that they insisted that you believe their eschatological views or you would fall from grace or something like that, right?
Whatever the case, they were wrong on that, but the dispensationalist eschatology isn’t Arminian or Calvinist per definition. I don’t agree with the Charismatics on a number of issues myself but even so I’m sure you’ll agree they’re not wrong on every issue, are they? So what I’m trying to say here is that I hope you don’t make the mistake of throwing the baby out with the bath water. I’ve been there myself, I know it’s tempting. But to illustrate with an example from the Bible: the Pharisees were hypocrits because they didn’t live by their teaching – but did Jesus or St Paul ever suggest their teaching was wrong? They didn’t, the Saducees’ teachings were wrong even if the Saducees themselves might not have been hypocritical.
I agree with you that it’s important to also know about conflicting views and interpretations. You’ve convinced me to try getting a bit more to the bottom of all the different eschatological interpretations that exist in Christianity (as soon as I get a more time to do so, that is) . So far I haven’t really done that because for one thing I didn’t have enough time for it, and on the other hand – as I explained earlier – I have more or less settled my views on this issue. I don’t know all in detail but I think that’s not really the point anyway. The important thing to me is the knowledge that Christ is going to return and that His Kingdom is not of this world.
When I found Don’s website, I was going through something of a difficult time and I had been neglecting Christ for months out of a lack of support of other Christians and frustration with Evangelical christianity in general for a number of reasons. But through the teachings of Christ’s second coming and the Millenium, I found comfort and I felt urged very strongly to rededicate my life to Christ. It has had quite some personal impact on me. Before I found Don’s website I didn’t pay much attention to theology and all these doctrines and their names, even though I did read on things related to eschatology. But it’s not that one day I started wondering about Christian eschatology and learned about the doctrines only to turn to the Bible afterwards and then “pick” one that appealed to me or something like that. But the website did open my eyes in the sense that a lot of things I had been going through in my own life and the things I observed in the world around me, somehow all started to make a lot more sense now. I found out the purpose of this life through it, that purpose being the glorification and enjoyment of God and His grace – which, I think, should be the ultimate purpose of each Christian’s life.
I sincerely believe that if you read your Bible and sincerely pray that through the Spirit, God may give you wisdom and insight, He will reveal to you what it is He means in His Word. The point is not to study the Bible just to be able to rebuke others. I think none of us should want to read the Bible for the sole purpose of doing that, it’s rather disrespectful of God I think. Eschatology is difficult but well worth studying because it leads you to seriously think some things over. It’s part of God’s Word and can help us in better understanding the world around us, and urging us to live by His Word.
God bless!
To think! The end in 1988! I was born then, on the cusp on end.
My young rebellious parents were all converted reading “The Late Great Planet Earth”. It was a sort of landmark testament of their youths (For me, the landmark was ‘Jane Eyre’). Growing up I remember watching Hal Lindsey’s news show (The only new show my step-dad would watch), and Jack Van Impe. It is a wonder I am still alive! Still breathing, walking to and fro — and reading, writing, humming! I thought then of naught but the end. To be whisked away in the arms of Christ! What a gentleman he was, to prepare such a lovely feast for me! (I will admit though, I was a bit afraid of coming back upon that white horse, and slaying the evil one). I somehow managed to exist in a Christian home for 14 years without once being taught about ‘the end’. I only had a notion of Christ, and love, and sin, and hell — but the earth to end! Once I caught wind of that sad doctrine I became obsessed — and ultimately depressed. Post-trib, pre-trib, bib-trib-a-do…So much contention can be derived from attempting to interpret such a hauntingly poetic book! Which country’s the whore? And who’s the beast? Does beauty have part to play? Or will the earth fall into the sun, as physicists say?
The Bible has poetry but it is not a hauntingly poetic book that cannot be discerned. It is a book of profound truth about literal events on the earth.
The Bible makes it clear who the Whore is. the Whore is not a country it is woman that fornicates with the Kings of the world. She is all false religion from Babylon until her end.
The Bible also defines who the Beast is. It is a end time world kingdom and a end time man pretending to be God. But the end times spoken about is the end of the age it is not the end of the earth.The earth’s destiny is clear although there will be renovations and the elimination of all evil, the earth has no end.
You ought to thank God that your parents were converted and saved but instead you seem to hide from the Savior and embrace poetic versus. Flowery words cannot save your soul and God is not impressed by flowery words.
Good day sir, sir i have a challenge trying to explain
matthew 24 expecialy verse 34 were Jesus used d
word this generation will not end, i need tto deliver d
answer and i want u to help go through it and give
me d explanation if u have d revelation of what it
means. God bless u sir
Hi Larry,
I think it means the generation that sees the signs that Jesus was just talking about will not end until all is fulfilled. Rather than get into another long discussion on this read these posts and the follow-up comments.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/is-the-parable-of-the-fig-tree-about-the-generation-that-saw-the-rebirth-of-israel.html
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/learn-the-parable-of-the-fig-tree.html
The Jacob’s Trouble mentioned in Zechariah 13, hasn’t it happened already by the Romans against the Jews in 70 AD?
Shaikh,
I took the comment with the link out because there is no sense in promoting the sites of heretics.
Actually Jacob’s trouble is mentioned only in Jeremiah and 70 AD does not fit the context.
If Jacob’s trouble happen in 70 AD we might as well ignore twenty percent of the Bible because all the detail put there was so that the Church could allegorize it to mean whatever they want it to mean and they do both.
As for Zechariah 13 how in this world does the following context fit 70 AD? It does not. Remember there are no chapter breaks inspired in the Bible and context and who the passage it is written to is all important when discerning Bible prophecy.
1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.
2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered: and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
3 And it shall come to pass, that when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of the LORD: and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he hath prophesied; neither shall they wear a rough garment to deceive:
5 But he shall say, I am no prophet, I am an husbandman; for man taught me to keep cattle from my youth.
6 And one shall say unto him, What are these wounds in thine hands? Then he shall answer, Those with which I was wounded in the house of my friends.
7 Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
8 And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein.
9 And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God.
14:1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.
6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Thank you very much Don and please do keep me in your prayers! If i have any questions I will consult you.
Jacob’s trouble cannot be the great tribulation. Jer. 30-31 is the full prophesy. You can clearly see the result of Jacob’s trouble in the rest of the prophesy. The result is that Israel is scattered to the four winds. This is what happened in 70 AD. Isaiah tells us that when Israel is returned as a nation she will never be scattered again. Israel returned as a nation in 1948. Blah blah blah………..
(the rest was edited out by Don because what is said is an exercise in confusion and just makes straw-men augments and charges about pre-trib Rapture beliefs that are as confused as the author.
boldncourageous,
Obviously you cannot comprehend what you read, Jeremiah chapters 30 and 31 argues against everything that you said. Jacob’s trouble did not take place in 70 AD. Israel is not scatter to the four winds again as you claim the pre-trib beliefs require. That is a false argument. Those Jews that believe the prophets flee to the mountains where she is supernaturally protected from the Antichrist for 42 months.
You need to read my article on proofs for the pre-trib Rapture.
A new post trib book must have come out. Suddenly I am getting a lot of posts and emails attacking the pre-trib Rapture view.
Plenty of scholarly arguments for the pre-trib Rapture view can be found at http://www.pre-trib.org