While reading Carla’s excellent and always discerning More Books and Things blog I came across an article that I think needs further attention by those who study world events and Bible prophecy. I might not agree with every single point in this article but I certainly agree with Prof. Malan’s major concepts.
Bible prophecy teachers seem to convey that Israel today is in the will of God. Therefore they suggest we better not do anything that could be conveyed as touching the apple of God’s eye. Some even suggest that if we do not bless this largely atheist nation that God will judge our nation. There are some erroneous teachings going around that relate judgments on America to how we treat unrepentant Israel. That concept is wrong. The judgments coming on America today is due to our own sins. We are judged on how we treat all nations not just Israel. If we are a just and moral nation we have nothing to fear. God will judge all the Gentile nations on how they treat Israel after God glorifies His own name in Israel through the supernatural deliverance of Israel in the war of Ezekiel 38 39, the two prophets, and the 144,000 sealed witnesses.
Israel today is still reaping the curse because they rejected God’s salvation in His Son. When God said He would curse those who curse the descendants of Abraham and Jacob He was talking about those cursing the children of the promise, the people of faith. They are the true children of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Remember, the leaders of Israel claimed they also were children of Abraham but Jesus called them children of their father the Devil. So did Jesus curse these descendants of Israel? Actually He did. He cursed the unbelieving descendants of Israel as represented by the fig tree that had no fruit when He came (Mt 21:19).
Other Christians will not even evangelize Jews thinking that Jews already know God. They are also wrong. Those who do not accept Jesus Christ do not know the Father either (John 14:6). The nation of Israel will certainly prove that point when they accept the false Messiah that is coming in his own name and not the Father’s name like Jesus. Some of these Christian ministries will raise large sums of money to send Jews back to Israel but spend nothing on giving these Jews the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They do not even tell them that two-thirds of the people that they are sending back to Israel will be killed in the coming Jewish holocaust (Zec 13:8).
One might think that if Christians really loved the Jews they should be telling Jews about Jesus so they would get saved before these terrible events happen to them but it is not happening. Not that anyone is actually allowed to preach the gospel in Israel anyway. So what does that say about Israel? Instead we rant about how nations are dealing with Israel as if God is not sovereign and not using the leaders of these nations toward His own ends to bring Israel to repentance. Had not God said that these things would happen to the Jews in the end times?
So how will Christians siding with Israel on world events give them physical peace and spiritual enlightenment? Even if we could change our national policies toward Israel the things God said about Israel in the latter days are still going to happen. The real problem with Israel is not the Gentile nations and our leaders decisions. The real problem with Israel is the unbelief of the Jews in Israel. The Gentiles will just be used to bring Israel to a place of repentance. God would protect Israel if they came to belief in Jesus Christ but instead they will believe in the Antichrist and go into more national tribulation before they finally get the message that peace and security is only found in their Messiah Jesus Christ.
If I did not know that we were in the end times when God’s words about Israel will be fulfilled I would have to believe that the unbelieving Jews now occupying God’s land would again be cast out. Yet, the religious Jews living in Israel think that God is on their side while they reject His Son and the non-religious Jews think that they are going to hold unto the land by their own military might. Sorry, but that is not God’s plan for Israel.
Many Christians by what they say and do, seem to covey similar false pretense as well. Ever wonder why the Jews flee to the mountains for 42 months? Because Satan seeks to kill every Jew in the world (Rev 12:13). That is the real destiny of those in Israel before they come to God’s Messiah. Exactly what world actions and reactions get us to that point is frankly very subjective stuff that even Bible prophecy experts do not agree on. So how do we know where God’s will is on every current event in the Middle East so that we take the correct position? Does our position even matter in God’s plan?
So knowing these things, let’s be telling the truth to Israel and evangelize those that can be reached instead of acting as if Israel’s leaders or America’s leaders will make correct decisions to keep Israel from the holocaust that clearly will come upon Israel in these last days. In the final analysis, it really does not matter one iota if Israel or the US takes out Iran’s nuclear capabilities, at least not if we are in the sequence of end time events like Bible prophecy teachers claim. Iran will invade Israel in the latter years because Ezekiel says so, and the end of that war has already been determined by God.
It really does not matter if Israel agrees to divide Jerusalem in some false peace deal either, because the Bible says it will happen anyway, “Zec 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.”
It really does not matter what action Israel takes because whatever action Israel takes in unbelief will lead to the same biblical end that God foretold the prophets and that us Bible prophecy believing Christians should be aware of. The primary Christian commission is to teach the gospel to Israel and everyone else. Our commission is not trying to stop or change Middle East events that have to happen if we are in the last days.
If Christians should learn anything from Bible prophecy it should be to discern how close we are to the Lord’s coming for the watching faithful Church. If Christians use Bible prophecy, it should be to used to evangelize those who might come to know God through Bible prophecy. Bible prophecy for Christians should not be about trying to figure out every insignificant detail and the exact dating of all events beforehand. Some of these things cannot be known with any certainty. Nothing at all has to be fulfilled before the rapture of the Church and after the restrainer is removed all end time events will rapidly come on the earth just as God said. For most Christians it is enough to know that what God said about the last days will take place literally and that the time to work is short.
If you want more thinking on this issue read the full article. Below are a few excerpts.
Jesus Christ in Biblical Prophecies
Jesus Christ in Biblical Prophecies
Prof. Johan Malan, Middelburg, South Africa (June 2009)
The spiritual and doctrinal value of various articles currently published on Israel is extremely poor. Authors mostly offer only a secular review of news events without giving a balanced biblical perspective on them.
It is an alarming fact that even Christian analysts on the situation in the Middle East reveal very little insight into Israel’s end-time position. Obama is now blamed for isolating and forsaking Israel. Is he responsible for these actions or did the Lord ordain them? According to Ezekiel 22:18-22, Jeremiah 30:7 and Zechariah 14:2, the Lord will bring Israel into great affliction because they have, spiritually, become dross in His eyes for dishonouring His Word and rejecting the Messiah. In the light of this situation we should understand their international dispersion during the past 2000 years, as well as the Holocaust of World War II. Or will we merely blame the Roman Empire, the Nazis and other nations for this human tragedy? These nations are definitely guilty, but Israel is more guilty and mainly responsible for their own problems. Didn’t Jesus say that Jerusalem would be destroyed and trodden down because its inhabitants refused to accept Him as their Messiah (cf. Matt. 23:37-38)? In the attached addendum a Messianic Jew, Arthur Katz, explains the full implications of Israel’s sin and lack of faith.
As for Israel’s future, it is really irrelevant what Obama, the pope, the EU, Iran or Russia say or do with regard to Israel. If they don’t persecute or isolate Israel the Lord will allow other groups or nations to do just that. The fact is that the Israelis have to go through the time of Jacob’s trouble because of their continued apostasy.
Why are there so few people who have the boldness to inform Israel on the true reasons for their problems? Why is their own spiritual bankruptcy not addressed? Why are even organisations such as the International Christian Embassy engaged with the establishing of good relations with unsaved Israel without explicitly proclaiming the Messiah to them? Why do preachers such as John Hagee deny Jesus as Messiah of the Jews by alleging that they don’t have to accept Jesus to be saved? Why do all the Christians follow him and merely donate money to Israel, but withhold the gospel from them, which is their only hope?
When will Israel’s fortunes take a turn for the better – when the United States again support and assist them militarily, or when they have accepted the Messiah? Will they ever seek the Messiah unless they are in a great affliction (cf. Hosea 5:15; 6:1-2)?
The less people think and speak about the Lord Jesus, the less they will believe in His promise of a pretribulation rapture (Luke 21:36); the less they know about His judgement seat, the less they will be prepared for His sudden coming (1 Cor. 3:9-15). Many people become so involved with a study of the signs of the times, including possible dates for the second coming of Christ, that they never seriously attend to the necessities of our relationship with Him (holiness), and also neglect to work for Him while it is still day – the night of God’s judgements is approaching when no one can work.
I do believe that Israel and many other signs are prophetically significant, but this knowledge should lead to deeper spiritual insights and particularly to the glorification and exaltation of the Lord Jesus – also to fear for the coming day of His wrath upon sinners, including all the carnal, agnostic and unholy people. His judgements should be considered as part of the bigger picture, lest people think that the nature of the future world will only be determined by the decisions and military actions of the present generation of world leaders. One actually pities them when listening to their decisions and beholding their military manoeuvres, as they don’t have the faintest idea of what is waiting for them. They don’t know that they will be gathered in Israel to be judged by the Lord (Joel 3:2; Zech. 14:2,12).
Israel is prophetically one of the most uninformed nations in the world as far as events at the end of the church dispensation are concerned. Their ignorance will cause their virtual downfall as they will lead the way in concluding a covenant with the Antichrist under the false impression that he is the true Messiah (Dan. 9:27; John 5:43).
People in the end-time are shallow in their thinking and judge all things in terms of secular, humanistic criteria. Even Christians start conforming to this way of thinking and are in most cases not able to correctly determine and describe a spiritual perspective on world events. Many of them do not even realize their own spiritual poverty and blindness,
every Christian is committed to inform Israel on the correct biblical route to their full restoration. If they are not warned against the coming false messiah and the great tribulation, how will they ever be able to correctly understand these times and make the right decisions? Without accepting Jesus the Messiah by faith they cannot be saved – neither can they share in the blessings that He promised to the believing remnant in Israel and also to the whole world during His coming reign of peace.
I largely agree with your stance and that of the author of the article you linked to. I’m glad that you have the courage to speak up on this issue because it’s quite a controversial and touchy subject within Evangelical circles.
In my opinion the belief that there is a strict separation between the Church and Israel (i.e. God has two peoples) is wrong and I’m afraid that it is why many today think that the modern State of Israel is a fulfillment of prophesy and therefore they have an undisputable right to all of the land. Let it be clear that the land ultimately belongs to God. Some are even lead to believe that God deals differently with the Jews, enabling Orthodox Jews to obtain salvation by following the Law even if it means they reject Jesus. Some actually would want to become Jewish and still others think that they are more complete or holy Christians simply for having a drop of Jewish blood. This would be far-fetched dispensationalism.
However, within the Catholic Church, there is also a teaching that says gentiles need Christ but religious Jews can reach salvation by adherence to the Law. This is called “dual-covenant theology.” It should be obvious that this is unbiblical because salvation is through Christ only. To reject the Son is to reject the Father; our God is Triune. There is no Jew or Greek in Christ, so Christ is for all, He’s the fulfillment of the Law and the Prophets. On the other hand, it should be said that there are also those who teach (or have taught) that all Jews are lost and the Church of gentiles has fully replaced physical Israel. In other words, God has no plans with the physical descendants of Israel anymore at all, and none of them will be saved. I strongly disagree with that view also.
The more I think of this issue the more I support the modern state of Israel’s right to exist mostly for rational reasons. Nevertheless, my opposition to Iran’s current government still stands. Then I guess any Christian would oppose it, not because we really think we can prevent the prophecies, but because we desire stability and justice in the region, and peace, freedom and salvation for the Iranian people.
I think God allowed the modern state of Israel to be created, and to survive to this day, because He still has a future for the elect among those who are literally (physically) descended of Israel, the grandchild of Abraham. Modern Israel’s survival is a great display of God’s power and His grace, but the Israelis are not getting it; they are still as stubborn and unrepentant as always! Let Israel’s example be a warning to others! The whole situation is really quite sad. Here you have the physical offspring of Abraham of which Christ was born, and yet they reject their Messiah. Thank goodness that there is a remnant of them that will, by God’s grace and love, believe, and be saved.
I fully agree that we are to witness to Jews because God hasn’t entirely rejected them. And while I think it is the right thing to support the modern State of Israel’s right to exist, we must also not allow this support to destroy our faith and allow the heresies of the Judaizers (e.g. the Hebrew Roots movement) to infiltrate the Church. It makes no sense to pray for the peace of Jerusalem and not evangelize to the Jews. There will be peace when Christ reigns, not just physically on earth, but also in the hearts of those Jews who accept Him as the Messiah and God.
God bless.
Very will put, I fully agree.
Well I am going to Israel on a mission trip around the end of July with a group called e3 partners. Here is their website if u like to check it out http://www.e3partners.org/pages/page.asp?page_id=24450
I been hearing that Israel is not a safe place to share the Gospel. And I know that I will do some mission work at Tel Aviv which Tel Aviv is the gay capitol of the world. Maybe those sodomites wont turn us in to the Israeli government.
Here is an article on BPT blog that talks about persecution of Messianic Jews in Israel http://bible-prophecy-today.blogspot.com/2009/06/strange-blessings.html
Agreed, we should teach Israel the gospel of Jesus Christ first and foremost. I’m sorry to hear that some christians aren’t doing that. On the other hand, we still need to bless Israel to obey God’s command to bless His people. Yes, everything is going to happen as prophecied but there will be goat nations that are virulently anti-semitic. We do not want to be one of those. I pray that our nation never turns its back on Israel because it could be much worse for us if we do.
Not only are Christians not evangelizing Israel. Israel will not even allow Christians to do that. They are as closed to Christianity as Islam. So how then do Christians bless Israel? By supporting them with weapons and material goods so they can continue to not rely on God???
In general I agree that America needs to support Israel for many reasons but part of my problem is the incorrect applications and terminology that Christians use. Like for example, your goat nation statement.
Where in the Bible does it talk about goat nations? Math 25:31 says that all nations will be gather before him and in context of the passage it is saying that each individual in the Gentile nations will be judged as worthy (the sheep) or unworthy (the goats) to enter His Kingdom on earth. Gentiles after the tribulation will be judged by how they treated Jesus’ brethren in the tribulation. So it is not talking about goat nations it is talking about goat people. Also, are unbelieving Jews parts of the brethren with Jesus or are they just those who were cleansed and refined through the fire of the tribulation? So to take what you said to its logical conclusion you seem to be saying that blessing the atheists running Israel today make us sheep? However, in this dispensation we are sheep because we were washed in the blood of the Lamb.
I guess I really am saying that Israel is being cursed because of the unbelievers running the nation just as they were running the nation when Jesus was there. That is why all these terrors are coming on them. So why should we bless those who are leading the Jews to another slaughter? If we really wanted to bless Israel we would be working to convert Jews to the Lord while there is still time. In fact, it would be more correct to say we are cursing Israel instead of blessing them by supporting their atheist leaders who keep us from evangelizing the Jews and that will lead them to the Antichrist. What God do they serve that we should bless them?
Now that is a twist that not many Bible prophecy teachers think about when they talk about the blessing and curse passage.
By the way, I will say again that statement of a blessing and a curse was talking about blessing the people of the promise not blessing unbelieving Jews. Even Paul said that not all of Israel is true Israel.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, are of Israel:
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Paul was not talking about replacement theology as some wrongly interpret this passage but neither was Paul saying that all descendants of Israel are true Israel and that unbelievers claiming to be Jews should be blessed. Jesus clearly said the leaders of Israel were of their father the devil. Therefore, they could not be people of the promise. So do we bless these people because they claim to be Jews when they are not?? I think we have a fundamental flaw in our thinking when we think that all who claim to be Jews are true Jews. It is very much like thinking that all Gentiles who claim to be Christians are true Christians. We will find out differently. God is consistent in dealing with believers and unbelievers if you understand what I am implying.
I think I agree with what you said. It’s an issue that’s bugged me though, because there are good arguments on most sides and I was ingrained with this Israel as God’s chosen people idea for all my life. If you believed otherwise, you were automatically considered a crypto-antisemite. But now I’ve come to believe that God’s chosen people is really those who hear His word and obey it, and I don’t care what people think of me for making that statement. Unfortunately even my family disagrees with me on this one and my younger brother talks of wanting to become a Jew (instead of a Christian). So am I wrong to tell Him that he does not need to be a Jew, that there is neither Greek or Jew in Jesus Christ? Is that Antisemitic somehow because it lead some to replacement theology? I suggest that Evangelicals tear the Pauline epistles out of the Evangelical Bible and preach salvation through works then. Their Emergent offspring already appears to be doing that with their new perspective on Paul, among other things.
I’ve seen so many joint Evangelical-Jewish events taking place and yet the Christians never cared to evangelize to these religious Jews. What purpose did this serve and what were they thinking? That the Jews will accept Christ because Christians support Israel, or because they use Hebrew words and adopt Jewish customs? I have yet to see that happening. I also know lots of people who consider Orthodox Jews as an example of piety. Never mind that most of these Jews look down on Arabs, loathe Christians, live by a distorted Oral Tradition, and follow that demonic and damnable Kaballah that is destroying many non-Jewish lives as well because some idiotic celebrities live by this mystical writing and promote it whenever and wherever they can.
The only reason Israel exists is for the end time prophecies to be fulfilled and for God to be glorified when a remnant of physical descendants of Jacob (aka Israel) finally accept the Lord as Savior in the last of days and they are truly “Ammi”, “My people”, again. Having said that, I believe that God allowed the modern state of Israel to be formed to work to that end, and therefore we should not oppose its existence or hate Jewish people like some virulently and mistakenly have done and continue to do.
God bless.
“tell Him” refers to my brother, should be without capital letter.. just to avoid confusion, thanks.
We need to see the big picture.
Make no mistake, Israel is God’s chosen nation on the earth. That is God’s plan for natural Israel and the earth. Israel will be a holy nation of priests to the world in the millennium where they will fulfill their destiny as the head of the nations. The believing Gentiles are now being grafted into the new covenant promise given to Israel by betrothal to the King of Israel. This will go on until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in (the bride is complete). After that Jesus as King of Israel will come with His Bride and His heavenly host and deal with the nations who would not have Him rule over them. But remember, judgment starts with the house of God. Israel will be dealt with in the time of Jacob’s trouble to remove all evil from Israel prior to the Lord’s return.
Certain Christians today think that just because some Jews relocated back to God’s land that these people are already in God’s will and should be blessed. No, the facts are that they have been at war since they arrived and they are on their way to even greater and greater end time birth pains. With Israel surrounded by enemies we see the stage being set for all that was foretold by the prophets. The dreadful Day of the Lord is very near. Only after complete despair drives the Jews to seek God and God gives them grace and divine revelation about the Messiah they rejected will Israel repent and be blessed with spiritual rebirth. The return to the land of a portion of Israel just tells us what the prophets said is close at hand. So we should be warning all the unbelievers in Israel and everywhere else about what is coming to them if they do not accept Jesus Christ. We should not be giving Jews the curse of false security in their blind religion.
I agree with the 2nd paragraph and I understand your arguments in the first paragraph except for the part where you say that the nation of Israel will be priests in the millennium and the heads of the other nations. I thought believers would rule with Christ? So where is this found? I’m not suggesting you’re wrong, I might just be ignorant. I just genuinely want to understand this.
The whole issue of Israel vs Church or who is “God’s chosen people” gets rather confusing and I don’t think it was meant to be. I understand that some promises are meant for the physical descendants of Israel and I agree God will restore them. I suppose that by “chosen people” you mean that they are God’s “chosen” people in that He will fulfill the promises that are meant to those Israelites God has elected to salvation. I would agree with that.
However, I do have a problem with the view of some that present-day Israel is somehow more “chosen” and more God’s people than the church. After all, am I a lesser child of God for not being an Israelite? Am I not chosen and His child as much if not more than most modern-day Jews, most of whom don’t believe at all? Aren’t the promises that apply to the “physical” Israelites made for those among the nation of Israel that He has chosen to salvation? So don’t these chosen Israelites then simply become part of God’s people as a whole, by which I mean the Body of all true believers, thus also “restoring” them in a spiritual sense?
Don’t get me wrong, I agree there will also be a “national” or ethnic restoration in the Millenium for those saved Israelites, but then those Israelites would be believers anyway and therefore God’s “people” and also His “chosen” ones in every way possible, both spiritually and physically. Then Israel will truly be a display of God’s glory and grace to the gentile nations. My beef is with the way many say that Israel in the present-day dispensation is God’s chosen people plain and simple, and the Church of gentile believers somehow is not.
In my views on Israel and the Church, this pretty much represents how I see it: http://www.gospelpedlar.com/articles/Last%20Things/Eschat_for_Laymen/ladd5.html – I don’t know what you think of Ladd’s historic (non-dispensationalist) premillenialism but I’d be interested to hear.
Another thing I just don’t understand is the 144,000 Brethren. How can all of them be descendants of Israel if ten of the twelve tribes have gone missing? Even the small groups of people from Asia and Africa are not a guarantee that all tribes are now present in the state of Israel. And who says they’re Israelites at all? If I had some ancestor from an Israelite tribe, would that make me qualify as an Israelite, after centuries of intermarriage? Would that give me some special or higher status than others? I would think not. A person who’s not born of a Jewish mother is technically not even a Jew anymore. People who were raised Jewish strictly speaking aren’t Jews either. So why can’t these sealed persons consist of both Jewish and gentile believers during the tribulation?
Anyway, just some of my thoughts. I know my last paragraph is off-topic and it might be beyond the scope of the original topic. Then again, it’s all related in one way or another, isn’t it? If you think it’s not fit for this topic, feel free not to publicize. There’s always email instead.
God bless.
God has a chosen natural people called Israel and God has a chosen spiritual people called the body or bride of Christ.
It is true that the Church rules and reigns with Christ but where do you suppose we rule from? I think we will be like the angels and go back and forth on Jacob’s ladder to the Holy City in space above Jerusalem and Jesus will be there also most of the time. There really is no provision on earth for a large amount of the Church to physically dwell on earth at any one time. Remember we do have bodies. Therefore, and according to the prophets Israel will be running the physical affairs of the world. But I am sure we will have total control over all people of flesh even more so then the Angels have control over the earth today. That is because everyone on earth will be filled with the knowledge of the things of God and Jesus will be ruling with a rod of Iron.
Certainly Israel is not God’s Spiritual nation. That is the Church. We are destined to become the Bride of the King ruling and reigning with Him and dwelling in the Holy City for eternity. Yet, we know there is no Jew or Gentile in the Church but we also know that all will not be in the Bride or there would be no need for a Kingdom or millennial reign. I think the best way to explain this is as some theologians have suggested. The destiny of the Church is to replace the fallen Angels in God’s universe. I think the destiny of the nation of Israel is to reign over the physical nation on earth. The earth will be living under God’s law. If you read Ezekiel chapters 40 through 48 you get the picture that Israel and probably the earth is living according to the law. That is also probably the reason for the rebellion in the end. Those saved in the millennium cannot become part of a married Bride. That makes no sense.
The people of Israel only become part of the Bride of Christ if they come into the Bride through faith before the Bride is married to Jesus before the Father in Heaven. No one can ever become part of the Bride after the wedding. Not all saved will be part of the Bride, in fact most of them will not be. I know this is difficult stuff to understand probably because Christians are told the role of the Bride and Israel is told the role of Israel. The roles and their eternal destinies are quite different.
You might look at this way. If you study the things of heaven you will always see a hierarchical order of beings. That is not going to change. We are not all going to have the same roles and all be on the same level. That just is not the way God designed his creation. Jesus implies that in many places such as His statements of rewards and taking away of rewards and the statements on the greatest and the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. So knowing that and other scriptures it seems to me that the Church will soon be the highest order in heaven. We are told that we will even judge or rule over the Angels (also the reason why Satan and his angels rebelled and hate us). In any great kingdom not everyone is royalty and is ruling and reigning with the King. These other saved humans will occupy the new earth.
Even Israel’s ancient system foreshadowed the hierarchical order in heaven. You had Moses representing God and Arron the high priest, you had the elders, you also had the priesthood that served in the temple. In addition you also had the rulers over the tens, the hundreds, and the thousands. Another “type” was when one trumpet blast was blown only the princes of the people assembled. When two blasts were blown there was a general assembly.
On the 144,000 and the tribes of Israel, the tribal identify of Jews is certainly no mystery to God. After Israel fell most of the believers that were left in the land of the ten northern tribes probably migrated down to the area of Judah and Benjamin. So they all became known as Jews but God knows what tribe each Jew is descendant from. Why can’t the 144,000 be both Jews and Gentiles? Because God named them by their Jewish tribe. Why would God do that if they are like the Church and are not of specific tribes? You have to understand that God still does have a purpose on earth for Israel in the millennium. Again, if you study Ezekiel 40 – 48 you will see that the land is divided into tribal regions so Israel will undoubtedly regain tribal identity after the restoration.
The Problem with George Eldon Ladd is that he does not understand that God has a natural purpose and fulfillment for Israel in the future and a spiritual fulfillment for the Church. When natural promises are made by God they cannot be fulfilled by spiritualizing them to the Church. For example, their are the physical land promises, you cannot say the land promises were fulfilled in the Church. An example where there are duel fulfillments to both Israel and the Church is the promise of a New Covenant. That New Covenant was actually given to the natural descendants of Jacob without precondition. The Church is grafted into the New Covenant through belief in the Jewish King but the New Covenant is still a promise to the nation of Israel and it speaks of conditions in the millennial restoration.
Don, thanks very much for taking the time to explain your views on this. It’s much appreciated, and it clarifies a lot of what you’ve said on the subject.
Ladd does believes in Israel’s full national restoration but only to be fulfilled entirely in the Millennium. However, it’s true that he doesn’t make the distinction you do as to whether it’s “natural” or “spiritual”. I’ve always believed that the believers who died in the tribulation would reign with Christ on earth during the Millennium because I interpret Rev 20:4 as refering to those who died in Christ as basically being part of the Body of all believers (i.e. the Church), regardless of whether they’re Jews or Gentiles. But obviously, if the Bride is the Church and the Church is really taken away before the tribulation (pre-trib), that doesn’t make much sense. So I understand your argument now.
Ladd is, of course, post-trib. That turns out to be the view I have held for most of my life, except that I used to be more of a dispensationalist. However, I also see a lot of merit in your pre-trib arguments. I am glad that you’re not a classical dispensationalst though because I don’t think that’s a very biblical view anymore. Basically I have come to see the Church as the extension of Israel rather than as a seperate people, but in any case it’s clear to me that regardless of the position you want to take on this, God will eventually restore historic Israel.
I’m not that familiar with the book of Ezekiel so I’ll have to look into that, along with the prophecies of Isiah, I guess. There’s a lot left to learn on the subject. I basically don’t really know what to believe sometimes. There are many astute and well-informed Christians who hold quite different eschatological beliefs. I hope to devote more time to this subject. I’ve been reading different interpretations just to be aware of all the different arguments, and to compare. It can be very daunting though, e.g. the roles of Church and Israel and the relation between them, is there a rapture or not, etc. The topic is huge.
In any case what I do know for sure is that premillennialism makes the most sense of all eschatological views, and I believe it is really also the biblical view. Christ will return, He will reign for a thousand years on earth, and Israel will be restored as God’s people in every way possible. Regardless of the greater details, I will always stand by those basic premillennialist views.
Thanks again for taking the time to explain, and God bless!
I call myself a modified dispensationist. I do not believe that all the classical arguments are correct. For example, I do not think the saved in Israel before the marriage in Heaven will be excluded from being in the Bride or the Body of Christ. I think the Old Testament is clear that people of faith had the Holy Spirit and were baptized into Christ. Pentecost was the start of the New Covenant where the Holy Spirit was given to all people who would believe it was not the birth of God’s Church. They would exclude Abraham himself the father of the people of faith from being in the Body of Christ or Bride of Christ. They would reduce Enoch, Moses, Abraham and most in the hall of faith to being just friends of the Bridegroom. While the Gentile grafted in believers since Pentecost rules over our fathers in the faith for eternity? It don’t make sense.
Also, I think those that those who believe in progressive dispensationism are too willing to throw out the baby with the bath water in order to find accommodation with those in Covenant Theology.
Everyone still has a lot to learn. Many things in scripture are not easy to understand and a good case can be built on both sides of opposing theologies. That is why we have different denominations and theologies. It is not like some think, when they claim it is just because they do not know the scriptures. Others think they can have all correct theology by just learning the scriptures, that is not possible. These theologians know the scriptures very well they just read them and see different interpretations for many different reasons. The Bible is much more complex than our Constitution yet we need 9 top judges to interpret it and often they reverse their decisions. Anyone who says they have difficult theology all figured out are not worth listening to. That certainly includes those that teach and comment on eschatology. When someone writes me and tells me God gave them the truth about the end time events and why everyone else has been wrong. I really cannot justify wasting my time listening to them.
Yeah, that’s what I thought from what you’ve written on the subject and what you said in your Revelation commentary. I take it that John McArthur is also a modified/progressive dispensationalist? A lot of what you’ve said on the blog clearly isn’t classical dispensationalism. I believe that classical dispensationalism wouldn’t say that people have always been saved by grace, for instance. That’s actually what covenant theology argues. I’ve also read that covenant theology doesn’t reject dispensations per se but it sees those dispensations as being within the covenant of Grace that God made with Abraham. So the New Covenant to them is a continuation of the Old one, and, in principle, the Church is the continuation of Israel. So even Charles Spurgeon talked of dispensations despite not being a dispensationalist.
I also agree with what you wrote about theology in general. I don’t think it’s good if you have to keep changing your views on major and essential issues though. I’ve really become more or less settled with basic Reformed theology, but there are some non-essential issues that I’m undecided on. I also don’t want to go around bashing those with other views because I don’t claim to have the absolute truth. For instance, when it comes to eschatology, there are generally good arguments on all sides. Classical dispensationalism is in error, but then Covenant theology also often seems to be over-emphasizing some things so it doesn’t allow enough room for physical Israel and the role of the Kingdom of God anymore. Some historic premillennialists have actually admitted this also, but of course they’d still disagree with your modified pre-trib dispensationalism on other grounds.
Eschatology is a non-issue when it comes to your personal salvation. After all, why would God expect a non-believer or a new believer to have eschatology all figured out? Nevertheless I’ve always believed that a future millennial rule of Christ is real and biblical. When you take it seriously and literally, I’ve found that it also leads to issues like Law and Gospel, Israel and the church, or even soteriology. That makes it quite a difficult subject, because it can challenge some other views you hold. One of the things that really challenged me to explore diverse views on the topic is that there are so many apparent contradictions. For instance I’ve seen many people who are Reformed and not dispensationalist and still support Israel and allow room for a restoration of the nation.
Anyway, hope this clarifies the statements I’ve made on this topic. God bless.
Actually all modern classical dispensationalists would say that people in all dispensations are saved by grace through faith. It was only a few early dispensationalists and hyper-dispensationalists that believe man could be saved by any other way. You have to understand that dispensationalism evolved as a theology and like all theologies it is still being refined. People also need to understand that dispensationalism is really only saying that God dealt with man differently in different dispensations of time. That is rather obvious if you look at history. There was a time before the Law. A time under the Law, a time of special grace for the gentiles etc. It is really different rules for living in different periods on the earth it was not different ways to obtain salvation. By the way, in all dispensations the methods used fail because all methods will fail to bring the unrepentant to salvation. I believe this whole thing is some kind of demonstration to the angels about man, salvation, Satan, and God.
I would not say that Classical dispensationism is in error, they just still have a few things wrong. Dispensational theology is really the only theology that can answer all the questions taking the scriptures in a common literal sense. Covenant theology sees a whole lot of things wrong because it believes everything is about the Church. So it get things wrong on God’s plans for Israel and it is wrong on almost all eschatology but getting into all that is a very long subject.
The essential required eschatology for a Christian is the belief that Jesus will physically return for His Church and judge the living and the dead. That does not mean that the detail are not important. God gave us the scriptures for a reason. You cannot properly understand many instructions to the Church if you get eschatology all wrong.
Fair enough. Still, to many of the things you said I could easily offer a counter argument from a covenantal point of view. Covenant theology says God works covenantly with people, but it allows room for dispensations within the covenant. Personally, I’m not convinced by the belief that God works differently depending on the dispensation and that there are seven distinct dispensations. This is also reflected in how Reformed theology sees the role between Law and Gospel. The major difference is probably in how the two theologies see Israel and the Church. t’s not correct to say covenant theology always amounts to replacement theology (in the sense that God supposedly has no future with Israel). However, it’s a fact that many have used or continue to use it to justify that belief, as well as the amillennial eschatological view.
But anyway, I think for the sake of the original topic and not letting this develop into a discussion about covenant theology vs dispensationalism, it’s best to stick to the basic points that have been argued here because there is a variety of views within dispensationalism and covenant theology and you could keep arguing for eternity about this. So I think the basic lesson here is this: Israel’s rejection is NOT final. Christ died for Jews and Gentiles alike. Christians should share the Gospel with the Jews. The Jews will be most blessed if they accept Christ.
Btw, I think if anyone else is reading this, the following basic overview of covenant theology and dispensationalism might be of help (I’m not affiliated in any way or taking responsibility for other content of the website):
http://www.xenos.org/essays/covdisp.htm
nasrani
I will just add that if you really look at all points of the theologies neither of them adequately explains it all and there is not even total agreement within the teachers within the theologies. Those in Dispensational Theology generally do not believe every single point that is usually associated with Dispenstational Theology and those in Covenant Theology also have differences among themselves. I find it interesting that John MacArthur is said to be a five point Calvinist and also is a Dispensationalist, that would seem to be a contradiction. That tells me that astute thinking people really cannot be put in theology boxes.
The main point of this post is that Jews needs to be told about Jesus Christ before they go into the tribulation. It will be hell on earth for Jews living in the tribulation even though a remnant will live through it. I guess we have said enough on this side issue.
Yeah, actualy dispensationalist calvinists like John McArhur and non-dispensationalist premillenialists (and calvinists) like John Piper and Spurgeon have also lead me to do more research on the topic and consider the merits of varying theological positions. That’s because I’ve become Reformed in most of my views myself and all of the persons I named are as well, yet they differ in their outlook on eschatology. But enough said, the main point is what you said in the blog post and I agree with the last paragraph of your above comment as well. Thanks also for being able to discuss the side issues. God bless.
Very well explained.Thank you.
Found this article very informing always hear so many different points of view on everthing and it gets confusing.I pray always and also ask GOD to guide me in the right direction.But I also belive we may not be ment to know everthing until GOD opens are eyes at the reserection.I was convinced there was no rapture but seems alot get that in there interpertation of the Bible so have to study harder and ask GOD to keep helping me understand.Also was wondering if you could e-mail me and tell me your thoughts on the most correct english translation.I hear the 1611 KJV is the most correct.I read a few right now have been reading RSV but realy want the most acurate one.I also wonder if you were born in a country that was almost strictly muslem would GOD give you a chance to no the truth at the reserection and convert correctly after all he sees in your heart and mind so he would no if you were sincer when he opens your eyes.If not would it not be considerd very unlucky to be born in a part of the world that follows almost totaly the wrong religion.Im saying if the person following the wrong religion was a good person and repented for his sins during his earthly life.I belive GOD would understand but would like your opinion.,Sorry for being of topic.GOD bless.
Jamie,
Probably the best English translation is the New King James and New American Standard. The KJV is obviously good but is hard to read for many. I would avoid the RSV, it is hard to read and losses a lot in translation.
I think God can reveal himself to anyone in any country or religion at anytime. Let me put it this way, I do not think anyone is going to the Lake of Fire that have been given to Jesus by the Father to save.
Salvation has nothing to do with being a good person at all. We all miss the mark of perfection necessary to spend eternity with God. So everyone has to come to God through trusting in the Son of God to pay for their sins as God decreed. Can a person trust in a Savior that they heard nothing about? In some cases that might be possible. For example, they might like Abraham believe that the God of creation Himself will save them because of His own righteousness to save them rather than through their own righteousness. This could be apart from what their formal religious indoctrination and brainwashing. Yet, they still might not know the Savior God they believe in by the names Jesus Yeshua or YHWH. Even So, if someone tells them the gospel of salvation they are not going to deny what they already believe.
I think your real question is can people be saved after their bodies die, and only then do they learn the truth about Jesus? There is one thing that is certain and that is that no one can be saved through their own good works.
Having said that, I would distinguish between the Church and those not chosen to be part of the elect Body of Christ called the Church. The elect will live in the Holy City. Others will live in the New Heaven and Earth but they will not dwell in the city of God yet they will also be saved into the eternal restoration. All that reject Jesus and that will not have Jesus rule over them will end up in the Lake of Fire. Exactly who goes into the Lake of Fire is up to the Lord. I am not prepared to say everyone that does not make some confession of faith before they die is going into the Lake of Fire. I think there are just some things that we do not know. One thing that I do know is that God of creation will be just. Another thing I know is that all that confess Jesus as Lord will be saved, so if anyone wants to be sure they will be saved confess and believe in Jesus while they can.
Don,
Your article and Mr. Malan’s are big wake up call’s to people like me who arrogantly exalt Israel wrongly.
I laugh to myself when I hear of the Middle East nations that have their sights on Israel to destroy them. It is total vanity on their part because Israel will prevail, but it’s not a laughing matter.
Israel is going to go through horrendous judgment because of their rejection of the Messiah, I need to keep that in mind.
It is interesting is various informative discussion. Salvation first came to Israel and then to Gentiles. YHWH is G-d of Israel. He is zealous God for His people. He blessed the descendants of Israel and said I will bless those who bless them and curse those you curse them. Christ himself told he came to seek the sheep from the lost tribes of Israel. His message was for Israel. And later on, at the time of Peter and Paul, it was open to Gentiles. Paul (in 1st Corinthians) says to gentiles that they should share the material blessing with Jews because Jews shared the spiritual blessing to Gentiles.
Though G-d is not partial, but he promised Abraham, Issac and Jacob on salvation of their descendants. For G-d, his word is everything for Him. Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. It is ignorant see a person writing that Christians are Israelite and all that matters are faith as Abraham is the father of faith. One should remember that promise was given to Abraham, to his son Issac, and to his son Jacob or Israel.
A child of faith are sons of Abraham, but not descendants of Abraham, Issac and Jacob. So when it says Israel, it does not include Gentiles.
Whether its Jews or Gentiles/Christians, Salvation is through grace through Christ Jesus. Those who believe in Him will enter into eternity.
During the end times, when all the believer raptures, in the unbelieving world only 144000 Jews would be given salvation because of promise that YHWH gave to patriarchs.
(may be some gentiles wont like what I wrote, if you humble before G-d you will understand what I am saying, salvation came through Jesus, Jesus himself is a Jew, heir to the throne of Israel, son of David, Son of Judah, Son of Man and Son of God)
Jenson,
144,000 Jews will meet Jesus like the Apostle Paul but they will convert hundreds of millions or even billions of people that will be both Jews and Gentiles. These are those around the throne that no man can number in Revelation 7:14