I had a discussion yesterday with more than one person about the plight of pastors today. It seems that some pastors feel if they openly preach on certain Biblical topics, they believe they will offend some people that carry past or present baggage and lose a portion of their congregation.
We blame pastors for the gospel light inclusive pluralistic universalistic teaching that many of them are now spouting from their pulpits but we must also consider that there are many people sitting in the pews that will not endure sound doctrine anymore. Many are brainwashed by the liberal progressive message that prevails on all media.
Today If a pastors teaches strong biblical positions where there is just a limited number of people to draw from and where most of the people get their views from media, his congregation will become progressively smaller. I am especially talking about pastors that teach in rural towns because they can only attract the local people available. They have congregations that were built over generations from families that occupied that town.
In the history of most churches that are ruled by congregations there was one or more major splits due to some family feud or feud between leaders or feud over doctrine. That is why near any town of over a thousand people you will find three or more churches of the same denomination in the more popular congregational denominations.
So instead of having growing vibrant churches in rural areas you generally have a lot of small mediocre churches that struggle to pay a pastor and struggle to fund other Christian programs. Any membership growth or loss usually is at the expense of some other small church within the same driving area. Its a downright plague in the Southern Baptist denomination. If you’re a pastor and your message steps on a few toes they will just take their membership down the road. If you step on a few too many toes and lose numbers, the congregation will soon be booting you down the road.
Obviously if your in a big town this might not apply. For example, if your the only Calvary Chapel in the area you can preach a very strong biblical message and those that want to hear strong biblical positions will come to your church from an hour or more away. However, when your church is made up of a few score of town families that pretty much are involved in the same things as the rest of the world, how do you preach against some lifestyles and life-choices without losing the membership of one or more of these clans?
You might say just preach the full Word and let the chips fall where they may. That is my position as well, but it too often is not the position of those sitting in the pews, and these people have the power of life and death for the career of their pastor.
I do not envy the position that pastors are put in today at all. A typical example might be that there is some popular teaching going around the denomination that is coming from one of the more popular media evangelicals. But, you read the material and you disagree with where it is rooted and you don’t want your people going down a subtly cloaked portal to the occult. What as a pastor do you do when the people in the pews still demand something like purpose driven, personality typing, pop psychology, successful living seminars,emergent-mystical-candles-and incense youth programs designed to get them in touch with their inner selves, or even a weight loss plan program that really promotes the books and the concepts of Eastern and New Age gurus? (I will be talking about this new “Daniel Plan” weight loss program of Rick Warren in my next post).
If you stand against the wishes of a signification portion of those in your congregation that want to follow every new wind bag that comes along, your going to understand persecution coming from some in your own congregation. You will also put your job at risk. If you just go along with the programs to appease those in the pews you are going to be one miserable creature if you really had a calling from God to teach the Word of truth and pastor His sheep.
I am open to your views on this subject, but I know what I would do. Yet, its easy for me to say, my income and means of living does not depend on those sitting in church pews.
I know that I could not walk on egg shells all day trying to please all that did not want their feathers ruffled. I also could not tap dance around the fact that certain Christians choose to live in lifestyles of flagellant sin. They would hear what God said about these matters whether they liked it or not.
I am sure if someone with my views took such a stand his congregation would soon be down to a number where he would get fired. Then he in my opinion, should take the people left, who want a true message from God, and start a non denominational church somewhere in town, even if that meant that he had to learn to live in trailer.
I would then advertise and get the word around town that this church will be founded on the clear teachings of the gospel and the full gospel will be taught (I am not referring to Pentecostalism or excluding spiritual gifts either). I guess finding new members would not be much worse than the effort it takes to run for political office and find new supporters. I would even bet that if your called, God would lead people from other churches and would also lead the unchurched that are open to hearing the truth and/or fed up with the compromising messages of today’s churches.
I think anyone trying this would have to have to be very gutsy, but I think the pastor that does it will not only be a much more fulfilled Christian leader, he probably will have a larger church of true believers down the line than he would have by appeasing the traditional sheep (of course it will take time). Meanwhile, all the other churches will continue on their path down the downward spiral of mediocrity and compromise with the world and they will keep splitting and spitting over every church faction.
Pastors stay true to why you were called into the ministry. You cannot truly pastor a flock, if the sheep given to you keep following the voices of the wolves. Soon the sheep will mostly come around to drop dung on your cowboy boots.
I grew up a Preacher’s Kid. You’re right, Don. This is a HUGE issue with all the churches I have ever attended. At first, I thought the pastors were just watering down the gospel because they didn’t have the backbone to stand for the TRUTH. But, I have been observing that the congregation has itching ears, and has no desire for the TRUTH.
I think it boils down to two things: If the pastor is REALLY called by God, he will preach the word no matter how big or small the congregation is.
And, second, (I know the verses about muzzeling the ox, etc.) preachers should not be paid for preaching the word of God. Paul didn’t. Why do modern preachers feel that the congregation need to support them? Financial support binds the pastors’s hands. I have seen it again and again!! It always comes back to the money. How about getting a full-time or part time job? Or having assistant pastors helping out? My dad has been a pastor for over 40 years, and he has never been paid. He supported my mom and 7 kids. He has prepared sermons, visisted the sick, performed funerals, etc because he loves the Lord. The Lord will provide for His shepherds, if they will trust in HIM.
The true Church will rise up like a perfect bride through persecution. It will happen in the streets, not in the church buildings. When your time comes to decide whether to die or be set free, I hope I (and you) will choose death, and win a crown of glory.
Even if the pastor did not get paid it would not stop the congregation from getting rid of those that did not do appease those families in control of the local Church.
I actually see it the other way around than you. Those that preach the Word should get a double portion. Paul was an exception because of his revelation and the grace given to one like him that persecuted God’s people. He said woe to him if he did not preach the gospel but Paul indicated his reward would come from supporting himself when he really did not have to. (Don’s paraphrase)
Do not muzzle the ox does apply because Paul said it did.
I generally do not like part time pastors because they cannot spend full time on the affairs of the church. They also generally are not highly trained and many are accountable to no one. Of course there are exceptions and very small churches cannot afford a full time pastor but one of the problems of why that is, is that there are too many pastors and churches in the same denominations in the same local areas.
Frankie your sounding like a fatalist, It is best for Christians to have a blessed hope than some kind of death wish.
Another “muzzle” a pastor/church voluntarily dons is inviting the government into bed with them by accepting a tax exempt status. Pastors should speak out against corruptions, whether in the life of a parishioner or in the life of a politician. They should be able to do so without fear from the government. I once proposed dropping the tax-exempt status of our church and was met with jaw-dropping disbelief. It’s as if churches have no faith in God providing for their needs provided the church is doing God’s will. Maybe I’m just being naive, or maybe it’s just the anarchist in me wanting out. 🙂
Actually Doug, it is a constitutional right for our churches to be tax free, the IRS law is more a muzzle in the mind of pastors than it is in reality. How many pastors were ever prosecuted by the IRS for their message? None that I know of, but I do know that free legal aid has been offered to any churches and preachers that are. That free offer was given so that pastors would stop cowering behind claims that they cannot take political positions in the pulpit.
The IRS will not take anyone to court on this matter because the facade would be exposed. The government has no legal grounds to limit free speech in churches or to tax legitimate places of worship.
The IRS law was really enacted to stop phony churches and charities from being tax exempt. I suggest legitimate churches get tax exempt status and that pastors in those churches should preach whatever they feel God leads them to say.
There have been a few investigations forced on the IRS by special interest groups and a few threats by the IRS for direct endorsement of political candidates but the IRS has not prosecuted anyone for free speech in any legitimate church. At least I am not aware of any.
What we really need to ask is why have our church boards and our pastors become such paranoid cowards? They see dangers from the IRS law that do not even exist.
I think some pastors find the IRS law a very convenient cop-out. They hide behind it to not preach against certain sins that certain politicians promote. The real reason is not the IRS law. The real reason is that they are either totally ignorant of the facts or they just use the law to hide behind so that they do not have to teach something that might offend the ears of certain people sitting in the pews of their own congregations.
The bottom line is that the tax exempt status of religious organizations is a right in this country. It is a provision from God given through our constitutional government and it ought to be taken.
I have also recently had similar conversations with an associate pastor who feels like a fish swimming upstream, mostly against the leadership (seeker friendly, growth movement church) almost every step of the way. Pastors really need to search their souls to see if they are in the ministry for gain or are they truly called of God to preach. If it’s the latter, then preach it. It is God who gives us the ability to make money. He will provide.
As a past church bookkeeper and “agent” to the state for the church, I disagree regarding the tax exempt status. It definately has been a right and maybe a blessing, but I see it as an avenue for the government to take control of what happens from the pulpit. Actually, I feel it puts a political muzzle on pastors and the congregation to keep them from being as vocal about social issues (taxes included) as they should be. Didn’t it originate with Lynden Johnson as a means of silencing the clergy against him? (I could be confused here, check that out) Pastors preaching against slavery were instrumental in that institutions demise. I can see “hate speach” charges coming to a church near you in the not too distant future, along with the threat to revoke the tax exempt status. Christendom would be better off without it. Plan now to build into church budgets a line item for property taxes and if you can’t give to the Lord’s work without a receipt for a charitable contribution, then heart motive for giving may be suspect. These kinds of issues are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to persecution. God help us if we can’t give up our “rights” for Him when the time comes.
Look the worst the IRS can do is take away your tax exempt status and they seldom if ever have done that for what was preached. So why give up your tax exempt rights before they even take them away??
Some might want 501 3C to be an avenue for government to take control of what happens in the pulpit but in reality it does not.
It did originated with Lynden Johnson and I am sure he had his own motives but it really only limits pastors from using their pulpits to endorse certain candidates. Pastors can still talk on the issues without endorsing candidates names. What some think pastors can’t say is really so subjective that the IRS is not stupid enough to even attempt to enforce it against anyone that would take them to court.
Why should churches just give up their tax exempt status before anyone even takes it away? That does not make sense to me.
Here are the facts of the matter straight from the ACLJ
http://www.aclj.org/Issues/Resources/Document.aspx?ID=84
Also consider this from this article.
http://speakupmovement.org/Church/LearnMore/Details/3771
I believe they have been asking pastors to test the waters but either they are getting no takers or the IRS is not biting.
In response to A and the contention that Paul wasn’t compensated for his preaching. While it may be true that Paul didn’t lavish himself in luxury, (as many today) I’m sure he was compensated for his preaching of the Gospel. The reason I know this is because the scripture tells us to mutually share with our teachers in all good things. (Gal 6:6) I happen to believe things to be possessions.
Also, summing up the end of 1 Corinthians, chapter 15, Paul states, in the past Christ arose, in the future we (believers) will rise, this is the Gospel in a nut shell. Now chapter 16, the collection. Again, while it is true there is no evidence that Paul used the collection for anything other than spreading the gospel, there are in fact everyday needs of the evangelist. It would be shortsighted to think that Paul was not subject to these everyday needs.
Ken C,
I know that not giving pastors a salary comes as a complete shock to a lot of people. However, I humbly submit to you that it can be done, and it may be very wise to do just that. I have seen it work in small and large churches in the US and Europe.
Don gave some good reasons why a pastor shoud be paid. But, please consider this as well:
Giving the pastor honor, gifts, free will offerings, that’s great. But getting paid a salary – there is no description or prescription in scripture of pastors getting paid a salary. The Lord Jesus didn’t. The apostles didn’t.
The gospel should not be to be peddeled for money. It is to be given freely. The Lord will provide for the pastor’s needs.
So you think it is fine to give a pastor a salary as long as you call it a free will offering? Well, all salaries are paid with free will offerings unless your attending a legalistic church.
Frankly, you do not know that the other Apostles were not given their living. Paul refutes that idea.
Don, I appreciate your article, but to me it is very clear. If you trust in God he will provide. The word of God is not to be watered down or compromised. Preachers who are compromising themselves because they want to keep their job really need to look at who is first in their lives – God or mammon. Sure its easy for me to say this because I am not in this position, but I like to think that put under the gun I will stand up for and say what is true, not what people want to hear. If God is with them, the work will be blessed and they will survive somehow. I look at your site Don, and I certainly don’t agree with all of your views – in fact I have the opposite view in some areas, but I appreciate you are speaking out for God without fear or favor and that makes me come back to your site. Thats what I would like to see in our churches.. sadly I haven’t gone to a church for some time because I struggle to find one which is not lukewarm.. but I will keep searching, and I encourage those preachers out there to search their hearts and preach the word with power, and God will keep you safe and provide for you. Its an aside but if you are faithful in little he will reward you in much. I recently went through the Brisbane, Australia floods. We had no power for quite some time. Getting ice was difficult. One day we tracked down the last two bags someone had available and were driving out when we noticed an old couple who had missed out. We stopped and gave them one bag. Half an hour later I drove past a shut service station, and noticed people at the ice bin. The power was out and the owner had unlocked the bin and gave permission to take as much as we needed. I got three bags of ice for me, and several bags for all our neighbors around us. In this little thing God provided hugely. How much more he will provide if you are teaching his sheep!
Thanks Wayne, I really do not expect everyone to agree with everything I say. My opinions are just that and sometimes even my own opinions have changed over time.
Don,
A free will offering is not a salary.
When a pastor gets paid, he expects it every week or month. When a pastor receives a free will offering, gift, etc, it comes sporadically as someone feels led to give. It comes in the form of money, baby sitting, food, gift cards, fixing his car, etc.
Regardless, the bible verses in your response are often used to defend paying the pastor. And, many apply them to a pastor getting
a regular salary.
All I want to say is that paying the pastor creates many of the problems that you addressed in your article.
I thought I explained that all collections are free will offerings and I also quoted a passage that makes it quite clear that those working in the ministry should reap their material needs from people they minister to. We are not in a agricultural barter system society. A salary just provides for their physical needs as it does your needs.
You’re getting hung up on words. You and I both think that pastors should reap free will offerings. I just don’t mind if those free will offerings are given in a biweekly agreed upon package. Yes, those in the ministry should depend on God for their living but so should all. But, it is obvious that God works through people for our needs and workers are given things like a salary by the people they serve.
Who says that pastors only give out the gospel anyway? All of us should give out the gospel. The Pastors job it to take care of the sheep and shepherds everywhere earn a salary.
A,
I think I understand what you’re saying concerning pastoral salaries. If you use Websters definition for salary, fixed compensation paid regularly for services. Then I can see where certain problems may arise. However, salary is your word, not mine. I used compensation. More in the vein of remuneration. Certainly it’s not your contention that preachers of God’s word are not to be compensated? I can see it’s not by your use of gifts and offerings.
We are in agreement, the gospel should not be to be peddled for money. But I don’t believe I said that.
Don, I’ve sent a few comments your way and have read this blog for a while, but your stock really went up from the comment you made on Jan.18, saying you don’t expect everyone to agree with you on everything. You CAN come off as a little corse at times, but I honestly believe that you have one of the most realistic outlooks on the endtimes andtrue Christianity in general as anyone I’ve ever followed on the web or anywhere else. Also, I finally get your take on your proposed timeframe of the endtimes, especially when you brought Enoch into the mix, and the lag time that happened after he was taken away. Keep up the good work my brother!
Thanks Michael… I can be corse and even on coarse at times…of course.
I’m changing my tag name in honor of Michael Angelo’s great comment and to keep myself ingognito so I can speak more freely at times.
Don I don’t know if you will recognize me since my name is changed but I felt I should change the name for now.
I’ve seen first hand that pastors will modify or temper their message to avoid offending some or many in the audience.
I just sat through the morning message today being very curious what would be said as the context was Jude, verses 5-7. I’m going to try to think further on what may have caused what seemed like a reluctance to mention the sin of Sodom which one of the Biblical prophets (can’t remember which one) did say was pride, but that pride resulted in open and disgusting sexual pleasure in unseemly expression.
It really bothered me that there was no mention at all of the sin which the Lord clearly defines as an abomination. I know there was talk earlier in the week of not being too hard on these particular sinners because as one said in the meeting, “all sin is the same so we shouldn’t be too judgmental toward them.”
Yes sin is sin but the Bible clearly sets the sin of Sodom apart as one that is a marker for us in society. We can see as Paul lays out in Romans that when man refuses to hear the promptings of the Lord that the Lord will give them over to vile affections even to the point of men being with men. A society that chooses to seperate from God will eventually take this same course, now much of the world is choosing this course so the jugdment will coming soon…
All sinners are welcome to forgiveness, Christ of course has paid the price in full and all who come in repentance will be excepted, but those who flaunt their sin in the face of God and defy him to do anything about it will soon become like those Paul says have a reprobate heart.
My little rant here is because there was a chance for the ‘pulpit’ to speak to the congregation and give warning about what the Word says. The sin of Sodom is perversion gone to extreme and it is for this stance that the world calls us haters, but there is no hate toward the sinner in this… just a strong warning from God to heed the judgment of the past.
Pastors should not miss the opportunity to tell it plainly.
The temptation to modify from the pulpit is strong and it’s one of the reasons the Lord gives warning to those who will take the position of teacher.
I’m done ranting for now.
Don I also really enjoy your take on end times.
Hi, Leonardo Da Vinci,
I believe I know who you are and I understand why something you might say could be hazardous to you.
My pastor today just mentioned that in Sweden it is now a felony to preach that homosexual activity is a sin. They also have people visiting churches spying and checking the messages.
At this time so far it is only not politically correct to call it a sin in the United States unless you’re a Chaplin in the military (that will soon get you fired) But, believe me if the liberals have their way it will be outlawed here as well.
I also can see that some will get offended in a large Church because they are either practicing the sin, have a loved one who does, or they have bought into the message that is all over the media.
How come none of these enablers do not have the love to tell people the truth about the super resistances diseases that they are spreading to themselves and the general population? Anyone wonder why MERSA is now a plague in this nation? Physicians and The CDC knows that homosexuals are disproportionately spreading disease to each other and the general population but they are largely muzzled.
The last I heard homosexual men die about twenty years sooner than heterosexual men? Seems everyone wants to just believe lies. It does not matter that those lies harm and kill people.
After speaking out against that sin is outlawed I am sure there will be others. The “hate speech” crime will be offending anyone. Perhaps It will soon be against to law to tell anyone that those that reject Jesus are destined for damnation and that you must be saved through God’s Son Jesus. That is where we are heading.
They will soon attempt to stop all proselytizing because everyone is now brainwashed to believe that truth is relative. they think your truth is not my truth. Proselytizing is already outlawed in some nations.
I agree that pastors must stay true to the Word otherwise people will get wrong ideas and think they can live in their sins without consequences that lead to death.
The bible clearly teaches that all such homosexual practices are an abomination to God. These people need to be saved, God did exclude any living in sin from being saved. But, once they are saved they are to put on the mind of Christ, not flaunt the sins of the flesh and continue renewing a mind of perversion.
My take on why the flaunting of homosexuality is the last step before judgment on a people and nation is expressed in a article I wrote. I think there is a direct link to homosexuality and other demonic activity and that is why God will not endure it in a nation. If homosexuals are out of the closet so are the rest of the evil spirit crowd.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/sexual%20perversion%20is%20a%20messure%20of%20demonic%20activity.htm
Hi Don,
I haven’t commented lately. I was thinking through some things.The world is blowing up at the moment so this particular topic is small by comparison.
I’m sorry for the long post but I literally could write a book or more on some of the things I have seen and heard, things that trouble me in this growing field of apostate church thought.
As to your comment about being careful about what I say in regards to homosexuality. I am not careful in regards to what the gov. overseers might notice but I’m careful that someone from my own mega-church might notice I have questions about the direction things might be leading.
You indicate at times your blog gets a lot of hits and I wouldn’t want the wrong person to realize I’m not in lock step with the pastor because that is not allowed and I would be thrown out on my can and my family and those I serve would be left to whatever Hierling they might bring in.
I’m expressing some strong views I know but I am getting increasingly concerned with our direction and some of the people in the church and on staff are shockingly self-seeking in their effort to rise to the top and gain power to themselves. I won’t bore everyone with those sordid details.
As I said above; I am not careful for my own sake but for the security of my family and also for the many people to whom I minister. It’s not a lack of faith; it’s being wise and discreet and taking care of my family. I am where the Lord has me at the moment and standing on a soapbox and proclaiming to others what I think is wrong will only lead to family and ministry trouble. Besides the Lord is clear in the parable of the wheat and the tares, that there will be a mixing of good and bad right up to the end. I believe I can be most effective staying where I am for the moment, because the sheep the Lord has given me to care for perhaps will be given over to a wolf or a hierling if I am gone. Sorry for the apparent pride in that statement but it’s what I believe to be true.
As the world is blowing up in the Middle East many pastors do not know what they believe.
Some things have caused me to get my discernment ears on alert at my own church even though we are known to be a respected Bible teaching church.
Just having finished the book of Jude in Sunday’s services, which is an excellent book regarding the warnings against apostates; There was no clarification regarding what marks an apostate other then they opposed what John the Apostle said. Sorry; but disagreeing with a leader does not make one an apostate.
This on it’s own would seem very much like straining at a gnat but I’ve seen other things which are too many for this blog.
There was a debunking of the Genesis six angels having sex theory with the comment, “Some people have this wierd & crazy theory.”
There was no attempt to Biblically explain why he thought it was wierd, only the message that we should all think it is wierd. The only thing that was strongly emphasised that marked an apostate was to disagree with the leader of the church and yet all the examples that are given in the book of Jude could have been brought out. I said in a previous post the sin of homosexuality was glossed over and it was said to the congregation these should not be seen as God’s judgements anyway, they were merely “God’s severe mercy.” Still not sure what that means. I don’t think the torching of the Sodomites was mercy, it was the final punishment for their continual rejection of God’s righteousness.
Following in the way of Cain and Balaam mentioned by Jude was a warning that we should not neglect to tithe…Huh? How did you get that?
We have been admonished very often of late to be loyal and see the high regard that God has for loyalty. A book has been pushed so strongly on that subject that has glaring doctrinal issues. The message has been, “don’t question the leader or you will not fall under the good grace of God.” Loyalty to your leader, in the book, is placed on a level above agape love.
There’s too many errors in the book to go into, some are so bad I’m shocked by it, and yet the book is put out as a must read.
I’ve already said more than I’m comfortable with.
the thought police in our own church would not want someone like myself having such strong opinions about such things.
There are many other warning signs I am seeing, some just came to light, but I’ve said too much already so I’ll go and see if Egypt is still burning.
Enjoy the warmth of the fire everyone. It looks like it will get toasty here soon.
Thanks for the perspectives. That undue “don’t question the leader” seems to prevail in your church denomination. I think that is even Chuck Smith’s position. Its all about control and lording over the flock.
To his credit though, Chuck Smith was the first one to give me the correct meaning of the Mustered Seed Parable. Today we can see that birds or birdbrains are nesting in the upper branches all over Christendom.
When are Christians going to figure out that pastors are just fallible people like ourselves. People do not suddenly become infallible because they lead a church. I personally have found errors in the teaching of everyone I ever studied and I even get things wrong myself. So people should question the leader if he is wrong.
By the way, if your getting any automatically generated emails at your church from me you might not want to leave them on your computer.
Hi Don
I have just read your article “Sex perversion in society is a measure of demonic activity”.
Excellent.
Perverse sex is an addiction as the abuse of drugs is an addiction and we know that is demonic.
Both you and Leonardo use the word flaunt, and the ‘gay’community certainly do this in their parades etc. Connecting them to the demonic world adds a dimension to this flaunting that could be likened to spitting in God’s eye. I wonder how many of them would admit they are thumbing their noses at God.
I have sensed this for some time but have not connected it to the demonic world as you have done.
Thanks Brian, here is the link to the article if anyone else wants to read it.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/sexual%20perversion%20is%20a%20messure%20of%20demonic%20activity.htm