Art Bell, on his radio program of the late 20th century, used to say that the earth had entered a period that he named “The Quickening”. Many in the late 20th century thought that we were at the end of the world or age as we knew it. Bell had one late night guest after another, telling his Dreamland listeners what would be coming upon on us in the next couple of years.
The guests ranged from secular prophets and remote viewers, to people that claimed to have various kinds of insider information about high level secrets. It made for great fiction, but the fantasy that was so often suggested, did not become reality just because some claimed it would.
In a recent post, I make my case why Jesus will return before 2050 AD. I used what I thought was a very conservative date. I actually believe Jesus is coming at least a few years before 2040 AD, with the start of prophetic end time events arriving some years sooner than that. I arrive at that conclusion by correlation of many world and church trends that are relative to Bible prophecy and by using logic.
It should not surprise anyone that the prophets of the world got the timing of the end of the age wrong, but frankly, the end did not come as fast as most premillennial Bible prophecy scholars taught either. There has been some “quickening” as Art Bell would say, but far less quickening than Bell and other modern prognosticators suggested.
Even so, if many world and church trends point to the fact that the Lord’s return is within a couple of decades, then it is just logical that any further delay of the start of end time prophetic events means that these events would have to be compressed into a shorter span of time.
A study of Daniel chapter nine tells us that there are still seven years left for God to deal with Israel before Jesus can return. Most premillennial scholars would agree that those seven years start with the Antichrist figure signing a covenant with Israel, so those seven years are not negotiable. Those seven years are still future and they have to occur before the Lord’s return.
Quite a few of the more recent Bible prophecy scholars believe that some prophetic end time events play out even before those seven years begin. The main prophetic events would be identified as the Rapture; the Psalm 83 prophecy; the total destruction of Damascus in Isaiah 17; and the Gog Magog invasion of Ezekiel 38-39.
Historically, classical dispensational scholars believed that all prophetic events, other than perhaps the Rapture, would happen within those last seven years. However, many of the more recent premillennial Bible prophecy scholars believe that some, or in most cases, all, of the above mentioned events happen before the last 7 years even begin.
We can see that the world stage is now being set up for all these events to play out. But, even so, the projected timing that some Bible prophecy teachers have suggested for the start of certain end time events have failed and are continually being pushed down the road.
The civil war in Syria has some now suggesting that the destruction of Damascus and the Psalm 83 war is going to happen within months. I really don’t see that happening that soon.
The Arab nations do have a common hatred of Israel but obviously they cannot act in one accord as long as revolutions are playing out in Arab countries. After the revolutions play out, there would need to be a time of rebuilding of their military before they will feel strong enough to take on Israel. Iran also needs to be removed from the equation because Iran is not mentioned in Psalm 83 and Iran is not Arab. Therefore, I can’t logically see the Palm 83 war happening before at least the latter part of this decade.
If that is the case, and the Psalm 83 is prior to the last seven years, then in my opinion that would leave only 5 or 10 years before when, I believe, the last seven years begin (roughly 2023-2030).
Thus, during those remaining 5 or 10 years the Gog Magog war would supposedly play out. But wait! The Ezekiel prophecy suggests that Israel will be living in peace, security, and prosperity with no one to make them afraid prior to the Gog invasion. That means in those 5 to 10 years after the Psalm 83 war, Israel would have to establish peace and prosperity conditions, and then also fulfill all that is mentioned in Ezekiel 38 and 39 about the invasion of Israel by the forces of Gog. Some suggest that this peace is established by Israel taking over much of the Middle East in the Psalm 83 war? (Keep in mind that they believe that the Psalm 83 war, the peace, and the Gog war are all prior to the seven-year covenant.)
I suppose that this is still possible, but as things get pushed further down the road it becomes more likely that these prophecies are fulfilled during the final seven years that most call the tribulation.
The more classical dispensational scholars like Hal Lindsey and Jack Van Impe believe that the two wars mentioned occur within the last seven years, and not prior to this tribulation period. They could be correct. If that is true, then we might wonder how it could be possible for Israel to be living in security and prosperity in the first half of those seven years without conquering much of the Middle East like more recent scholars like Bill Salus suggest?
The only answer possible for this late date peace is a seven-year covenant signed by the Roman prince, and the works of the two witnesses sent by God. The peace is established by the Covenant, but the prosperity and security that Israel is enjoying prior to the Gog invasion could be connected to the two witnesses that basically dictate to the world from Jerusalem.
When Moses brought Israel out of Egypt, the people of Egypt gave the people of Israel gold and precious things in some apparent attempt to appease Moses and his God. When the two witnesses come with their 3.5 year ministry that includes calling down judgments on the world as often as they wish, perhaps all Jews will be brought out of the world and back to the land of Israel.
Perhaps, at that time the Jews will bring much of the wealth of the world with them like the first Exodus. That could answer why Gog comes down to plunder Israel of her wealth. It also explains why the world comes against Israel like a flood (Dan 9:26, Rev 12:16) after the two prophets are removed from the picture (Rev 11:10-12).
Pharaoh sent the armies of Egypt after Israel like a flood, after Israel left Egypt with much of their wealth. At that time, the red sea swallowed up the army pursuing Israel. In the end times, the Dragon sends a flood against Israel and the earth swallows that flood (army?) up (Rev 12 14-16).
Things that happened before in the Bible can also be rehearsals of still future events. Like Solomon said, “That which has been, is that which is to be, and that which has been done, is that which will be done, and there is no new thing under the sun.” (Ec 1:9 BBE).
This is just food-for-thought. There is much that we just do not know about end time events. Some Bible prophecy teachers think they have everything all figured out and they become dogmatic about their theories. Thus far, they have not had a good track record on predicting the timing of end time events. Don’t get me wrong, I still like to think that most of the events mentioned are before the tribulation.
However, I do want you to keep in mind that the longer we travel down the road with none of these prophetic events happening, the more likely it becomes that these prophetic events will be fulfilled in the last seven years of the age.
Don,
I listened to Art Bell and George Noory for a short time before I concluded that their extra terrestrial, government conspiracy, vampires & shape shifters among us, etc was about as realistic as looking for the Blob to come about.
They even had a supposed satanist on ‘Coast To Coast’ and they gave this guy credence and sympathy for satan…that was the end of my listening to their hogwash.
On a more realistic note…
From what I Biblically understand, Syria and Egypt aren’t mentioned in the invasion of Israel either, so it seems like the Damascus destruction might be far reaching for Syria…we have yet to see why Egypt won’t be a player…and Saudi Arabia (Sheba & Dedan) will be opposed to the Israeli invasion for some reason.
I think the two witnesses are another reason why The Church can’t be here during the tribulation because even though, yes, it won’t be a pleasant time and there will be severe judgments coming from them, there will be plenty of people like me that would want to go and meet Elijah and the other witness ( I think it could be Moses ), how awesome would that be : )
Don, I believe this article is an excellent perspective on Bible prophecy. How I do love this subject.
I believe there is that one BIG event, The Biggest Event In History when The Messiah, Jesus, Our Lord Was Crucified And Rose From The Dead approximately 2000 years from our 2027 – 2033 calendar that I think is going to be extremely relevant to all this.
When people doubt The Bible or God, I just tell them to take a look at these nations that were talked about in The Word and prepare to be astonished…it’s one thing to even predict that these nations would be around 2500+ years later but it’s quite another to predict with pinpoint accuracy what is going to happen and seeing it develop right now, before our vary eyes.
And then there’s Isaiah 18. I keep that on my radar and study it from time to time. As world events play out, particularly at “home”, in the immediate, I want to keep Isaiah 18 on my radar – but it is a tough read.
On this phrase: “(roughly 2023 – 2030)”… Just to emphasize, this is the “window” for a projection for when the last 7 year period begins (emphasis on the word ‘begins’) – don’t want anyone to misread that Don is suggesting that 2023 – 2030 is the last 7 years… only a projected “window” for the period start.
I like the take on the influence of the two prophets. I think their likely influence on the world is being under-estimated (just an observation, not a criticism per se).
Hi ~David,
I remember remote viewer, Ed Dames, on the Art Bell show claiming that He removed viewed Satan. What a dork!
As for the Psalm 83 players, we really do not know if Egypt is named. The Hagarenes mentioned in that Psalm apparently lived in Jordan in the days of King David but the root word Hagar could mean that they were descendents from Hagar who was an Egyptian. Assur or Assyria is also named and is Northern Iraq and Syria.
Apparently you are mixing up the tribes in the two wars. The Arabians are included in Psalm 83 but Sheba & Dedan are named as questioning the Gog invasion and Egypt and Syria are not named in the Gog invasion.
hmm very interesting article!! i like how you base your end time events with some sense unlike some other people. the time frames u give seem very reasonable. I believe as these evens are being pushed back all the time we are going to have to push everything back once again but it all seems reasonable before 2050 withiout a doubt!!!
“2013 is the year of the Fulness of Time. Take 20 and add it to 13 and you come up with 33 and that’s how old Jesus was when he went to the Cross in the Fullness of Time.”
This was part of a letter asking for the “sowing of a seed” by a local ministry.
It predicted greater revelations are coming.
I can hardly wait.
Bob
Didn’t you know, It is just that easy to figure it out.
I can help the guy come up with his next profound revelation.
If you count the number value of Obama’s name and add 2000 years since the Christ arrived you get the year that Obama rises from the dead and claims to be the new Christ.
O = 15
B = 2
A = 1
M = 13
A = 1
Total 32 or 2032 AD. See how easy it is. Who said this is rocket science?
This timeline only works if the 7 day 7000 year theory is correct, although i agree that it probably is. I agree the magog war mid trib makes alot of sense. I cant think of a more secure Israel with the two prophets around plus the recent treaty with the antichrist. I guess the war of psalm 83 happens just before the 7 years then?
Don,
According to Jamie Foxx, Obama has already risen from the dead.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/27/jamie-foxx-obama-lord-and-savior-furor-soul-train-awards_n_2199439.html
It’s like church in here. First of all, give an honor to God and our Lord and Savior Barack Obama,” he said to the audience.
Just another reason why I quit watching secular movies and TV long ago.
Jim,
I don’t know why you say that it only works if the 7 day 7000 year theory is correct? If you read the earlier post that I linked to in this article, you would see that I gave plenty of other reasons why Jesus will come before 2050.
The Psalm 83 war could also be in the final seven years or not even be a war at all. Some teachers believe it is just a prayer and not a prophecy.
Having said that, I believe I made it clear in the article that I still think that these two wars are pre-trib.
~David,
Maybe Jamie Foxx is just getting an early start on running for the False Prophet.
one other good reason to believe jesus is coming before 2050 is because by that time we will reach the singularity for sure and god would never allow machine and human to co-exist. This one reason alone makes it very likely this is the last generation.
Thought provoking article.
It appears you may be on to something with regard to the Dan. 9:26 and Rev.12:16 FLOOD prophecy. Since this “flood” comes from Satan’s mouth, we can be sure it’s a demonic army coming against the woman to destroy her. The “earth” supernaturally helps by “swallowing the flood”. This does appear to be a literal flood, as strongs reads “water even as a flood”, it doesn’t say LIKE A FLOOD. Dan. 9:26 prophecy also eludes to an end of days flood …and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. This interpretation has merit. It’s also in keeping with God’s character and how he judges pure evil; by drowning them.
When Rev. 12 it talks about “the earth opened up her mouth, and swallowed up the flood” the “earth” can’t be referring to the inhabitants of the earth as I once believed, unless it means people helped the Jews by helping to hid them in caves or in underground tunnels but that doesn’t account for the complete desolation and aftermath predicted in both the prophecies. I believe it has to be supernatural intervention.
Good spiritual food for thought.
Sherry,
The word actually means a river or a stream of water but there is precedence for water being used for a invasion of people. For example:
This passage in Jeremiah seems to be an end time prophecy and it is make to the Philistines that are now known as Palestinians. Jeremiah could be talking about the very same flood that threatens the people of Israel in Revelation. Also, it is interesting that some classical amillennial commentators interpreted the Revelation passage to mean a flood of barbarians from the north against the Church. Of course that is wrong, but they did see this as being a flood of people.
Further, during this same period where Israel flees from the Dragon she will flee to and be protected in the mountains of Jordan. That flood of people that invade and chase after the people of Israel could literally be swallowed up by the end time earth upheavals that are also mentioned in prophecy.
Don,
I think you make a valid point in that we just do not know for sure about the timing. I, like you, tend to believe that the events you listed will happen before the Tribulation. In reference to the Gog Magog invasion, wouldn’t it be hard for this to occur during the Tribulation? After reading your explaination in previous posts, doesn’t the Bible say it will take the Jews seven years to bury the dead? I guess it could carry on after the Tribulation? I’m just kind of thinking out loud. Thanks
“That flood of people that invade and chase after the people of Israel could literally be swallowed up by the end time earth upheavals that are also mentioned in prophecy.”
This is my belief.
As an adjunct to this thought, Tom McElmurry suggests the wine-press extending a thousand and six hundred furlongs is not speaking of blood but magma (Greek haima; of those things that resemble blood, i.e. grape juice).
This was interesting as I have always found that much coagulating blood a bit mind boggling.
Just a thought to chew on.
Steve,
The Bible says the whole house of Israel will bury the dead for 7 months and that Israel will not have to gather fuel for 7 years because they will be burning the weapons of war. So sure, it seems impossible for this to be happening at the same time that they are fleeing to the mountains from the Antichrist at the mid point of those seven years.
The problem is that you run into problems with every timing of this war including the pretribulation view. For example, the wording of the last half of Ezekiel 39 implies a restored kingdom but yet we would not even be in the final seven years at that point.
It seems that all arguments of timing can be rationalized by those holding them, but they do not convince those that see the Gog war occurring in a different timings. Even so, there are problems that have been addressed with all the timings.
Brian,
That amount of blood flowing the length of Israel up to the horses bridles is quite impossible unless it is mixed with rain water or magma as you suggest.
I think one thing that most do not understand about the great tribulation period is that the whole surface of the earth will be changed. This change probable will come through gravitational forces and shock waves from whatever is coming upon the earth and making the small and the great craw in holes in the ground. Every city in the world falls at the destruction of Babylon. During this end time period all mountains will be made low so that deserts can be eliminated for the millennium Kingdom on earth. The crust of the earth cannot stand much stress, it will melt like wax at the Lord’s coming with his Holy ones. We are now literally walking on a ball of fire separated by a crust that is about as thick as the skin of a blown up balloon.
Agreed Don,I have often imagined the destruction and displacement that must occur.
I watched a commentary on earthquakes and the ground can become fluid allowing buildings to sink into the earth. I can imagine Uluru (Ayers Rock) disappearing into the earth – and you have your ‘El Capitan’.
Since I won’t be here it strikes me with awe rather than trepidation.
Great article. Only problem with such a late time period (and you do make some great points) is the whole Matthew 24:32-33 thing being in one generation. Now granted, if anyone can crack that nut of figuring out exactly how long a generation is, then they’d be very popular indeed. But we have multiple examples of different lengths of a generation, so not sure. I know 120 years is one such example, but we don’t see that as the norm today, nor has it been since just after the days of Noah. I guess we’ll see when we see.
Pete,
I wrote several articles on the fig tree parable already, see the side bar or better yet, do a search from the bottom of my website home page. This is a perfect example of Bible prophecy teachers getting it wrong because they dogmatically put their own subjective meanings on a passage. The parable of the fig tree is truth, but speculators need to learn what Jesus was actually proclaiming.
Just one thought for me is that why would there be a need to sign a treaty with Israel unless she posed some kind of threat? In this line of thinking I find persons like Bill Salus appealing in there reasoning. So to me I just see the ME set on a fast track to a meltdown.
Good thoughts Don
David
David,
The scripture does not say that there will be a signed treaty with Israel. The scripture actually says the Prince “shall make a firm covenant with many”. That could be many nations or many people but it certainly will include Israel. At that time Israel could very well be part of a larger bloc of nations. Perhaps Israel will join with the revived Roman Empire or NATO (who actually could very well be the same entity). That also would give reason why Israel is feeling secure. Also, just because the covenant is confirmed by this prince for seven years, does not mean that whatever the covenant is had to begin at that time.
In my opinion, nobody really knows for sure who and what this is all about.
Brian and Don, the comments you both made about blood, magma and the surface of the earth were fascinating. I learn something new every time I read this blog! Thank you both 🙂
“This is a perfect example of Bible prophecy teachers getting it wrong because they dogmatically put their own subjective meanings on a passage”
Are you referring to myself? I’m just takin a plain reading of the passage. I understand in Luke 13:6-9 and also Matthew 21:19-21 as a practical example.
That still does not negate the “this generation (genea-not ethnos) shall not pass away until all these things…)
Anyway, not tryin to be argumentative, the article is great. I have a hard time seeing dates like 2050 being thrown out there as a catch all. It might as well be 2150 because you and I will not be here by then, and if we are…we are going to be really, really, really old and probably senile.
Pete,
I am referring to Bible prophecy teachers in the Church that assume that all they have to do to determine when Jesus will return is to figure out the length of a generation.
I think it is now obvious that Jesus was saying the generation in Israel that sees what He was talking about would not pass away until all is fulfilled. In other words, the same generation of Israelites that sees what he was talking about should get ready for the end. I do not see in that passage that the Church and unbelievers should start counting down from the time that Israel was allowed to become a nation by the UN.
This message by Jesus was written to Israelites that see the signs. Even today Jews do not have a clue about this prophecy. So then what was the point of it being said at all, if Jews have already been there for 65 years and still, the prophecy means nothing to them? Was the prophecy given to tell the Church that they should count down from 1948 so they can know the timing of the Rapture? Some seem to think so. However, there are no specific signs for the Church, we are always to be watching and working because we do not know when Jesus will come for the Church. The Rapture has always been and still is imminent.
By the way, the person first to promote that interpretation that Jesus was talking about the length of a generation (Hal Lindsey), has now changed his interpretation of that passage and it is not toward a longer lifespan.
I said Jesus would return before 2050 for good reason. From what I see in the world I expect Jesus to return to Israel by the 2030’s, but if I am wrong, I probably am erroring in thinking that it will be that soon. Keep in mind that there is little reason why the Rapture could not occurs years or even decades before the final seven years.
I agree that there probably is a window of time between the Rapture and Daniel’s 70th week. I also agree that the Rapture is not predicated upon any event, so trying to measure it against any of the old standards is hard to do.
But I don’t see the relevance of whether the Jews know of, or even acknowledge the Olivet Discourse “Fig Tree” as of any import. For instance, how many Jews were there to welcome Jesus at His birth? And they had all the OT prophecies pinpointing when and where He’d be born. At the very least, they had a small window of time that it would be possible and still, the welcome party was pretty small. He still came anyway though.
To me, the problem with most of biblical prophecy, is that there is just enough information there to picque our curiousity and study, but not enough to really drill down the specifics. Clearly, that is the way God designed it to be. It allowed His word to be fulfilled (with a clear 20/20 hindsight view), but prior too the event, it’s more like 20/50 vision (thru the glass darkly I suppose).
Again, I agree that people are quick to be dogmatic about things that are more speculative than sure, and I’m no different. I see things transpiring a certain way, and until they don’t, I’ll hold to a particular view.
Pete said,
Why?
If its speculation as you admit, why just join the dogmatic crowd. Why don’t you just admit that your position is just one possibility? Many Bible prophecy teachers teach speculation as dogma and they have been continually been wrong. Many people have gotten turned off to Bible prophecy and even premillennial beliefs and dispensation theology because of dogmatic speculations of Bible prophecy teachers that turn out to be wrong.
Why do we even think that we have to figure everything out about future prophecy for everyone else?
A desire to be part of the Rapture generation had me looking to the shortest possible length of a ‘generation’ and refusing to accept that it was not referring to 1948 at all.
But if it did: –
40 years (minus 7 years TRIB) – 1983 came and went :
70 years – 2011 has past:
The generation alive at the time of Israel’s rebirth???. If the last of this generation lives to be 80 it should fall somewhere close to 2021 (Don’s more pragmatic understanding of who that generation is).
I can’t accept the 120 years, it doesn’t seem to apply to the era of either Israel or the Church
As I get older other issues seen in the Scriptures are tending to negate my youthful desire and Don’s scenario for the next decades are making good sense. I would encourage all Christians to read his article: – http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/countdown_to_second_coming.htm
For me at 71, these things do not destroy the hope of being part of that momentous event, but the ‘valley of the shadow’ is becoming the greater probability. However Psalm 23:4 tells me his justice and grace will accompany me through that valley, an experience which will probably be longer than the ‘twinkling of the eye’.
Love to you all
People who lose faith in premillennial dispensationalism because they are disappointed, never got it to begin with. I do admit that what I can’t prove is my view of things, and I state that into my writings as well. What I’m saying is, until what I believe either fails to materialize (as had happened in the past) I see it as the most likely course of action. I could go and say that The Lord will probably return in the next 100 years, and I’d probably be right…which eventually then leads to pan-millennialism. What do people care if its beyond their life span? What do you care what happens 200 years from now?
Rather, I see the events Quickly coming to pass. Remember how much was crammed into the last week of Jesus life?
Brian,
Only the generation of believers alive at the Rapture will not die, but even if we do die we are present with the Lord so there is little difference.
The problem with these lifespans of 70 or 80 years not dying off since Israel became a state again is that it does not make sense to anyone other than Bible prophecy bluffs with wishful thinking about what Jesus meant.
Jesus could keep the last person that saw Israel become a state again alive forever if He wanted, so I do not believe he was talking about a lifespan which is different for everyone anyway.
A generation generally is from parents to their offspring. That is about twenty or thirty years but since all is fulfilled before the generation ends, it can be any number of years less. And keep in mind that all prophetic events do not have to take place during the last seven year that are yet to be fulfilled for Israel. There could be false birth pains before the birth pains. I think this occur when the first seals are opened and we see wars and plagues caused by the actions of men rather than judgments of angels. The judgments carried out by angels is not mentioned until after the 6th seal is opened and the 144,000 Israelites are sealed.
Pete
So your still sticking with the generation dying off interpretation that Bible Prophecy scholars are now dropping like flies? Oh well.
Like I said, Lindsey now has a different interpretation for that fig tree passage. I do not think Lahaye ever brought it up. Arnold Fruchtenbaum has a completely different explanation in his “Footsteps of the Messiah” for that passage. Jack Kelly was saying that the Rapture had to occur by 2012 based on that 70 year lifespan, as did others. Do what you want, but I personally do not think it is good to put all your eggs in a basket full of holes.
I think we can know the season, we are not in darkness. The Lord’s return to Israel is not 100 or 200 years down the line, but I do not believe the world stage is quite set yet for it being 10 years either. The Rapture or our death however could occur anytime and then not long after we will see how the final seven years and the coming of Jesus to Israel in glory will really play out.
Don and All,
It is my understanding that even Jesus’ Apostles expected him to return somewhere close to that time period and since then, many generations of “scholars” have been making a case for their time period.
While I do believe that the estimated 2030 time period is going to be extremely significant for end time events because of the 3rd/7th day relevance, I have no idea of what and where things are going to happen.
I would, however, be surprised (if I’m still living) if The Rapture doesn’t happen no later than sometime in the next decade…but whatever The Lords Timetable is, I’m good with it.
Many of you here on this blog have a deeper knowledge and theory than I do, however, I do think above all, like every generation, this is a time to rejoice…I believe we are doing what the Lord wants us to do and that is anticipate his arrival every second of every day.
Maranatha : )
Don, I know this is speculative, but . . .
This whole generation debate may have gotten side railed by not taking into account what was going on back in Noah’s days. The Lord said that as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the time of his coming. Jesus never spoke of the rapture; that remained a mystery while he walked the earth, so He must have been speaking of His second coming. The bible says Noah was perfect in his generation. We know he wasn’t perfect as in sinless. Only one man ever was. It must mean something else.
Back in Noah’s days, Satan was actively engaged in attempting to defeat the Genesis 3 prophecy; to prevent the “seed of the woman” from coming into the world. He did this through genetic manipulation; hence, the Nephilim. Satan was so successful, the only remedy was for God to completely wipe out all life – man and animal – for part of the manipulation was combining human and animal DNA. We see evidence of this in the myths that came down through history.
If this is true, the use of the word “generation” has to do with Noah’s still-pure human DNA. The 120 years had nothing to do with the length of a generation but instead was the grace period God allowed before sending the flood.
Satan attempted this again before the Israelites entered the land promised to them. The Amorites, Anakim, Rephaim, Zamzummin, and Emim were all Nephilim, which is why God ordered the Israelites to completely whip them out. Total annihilation seems to be God’s remedy for Satan’s genetic experiments. I believe this is also why Sodom and Gomorrah were similarly wiped out.
Fast forward to the present. Jesus said as it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at His return – not the rapture, but His second coming. We already see a replay of Noah’s day happening in genetics labs all over the world. Genetic manipulation, mixing human and animal DNA, and we see it in UFO abductions which usually involve probing human genitals. Transhumanism is the next big leap in evolution, don’t you know-?, or so some believe. After the saints are taken out of the world, this may very well be the grand “deception”. Satan/Antichrist will offer man a way to become like himself. Like God. Immortal. It’s the same lie he gave to Eve. Take his offer and be eternally damned, or refuse it and lose your head!
If so, the “generation that will not pass away” may very well mean the human race will continue until He returns, and have nothing at all to do with a specific number of years or a life span.
“So your still sticking with the generation dying off interpretation that Bible Prophecy scholars are now dropping like flies? Oh well.”
Absolutely, but my eggs are not all in the Fig Tree basket. Consider what Jesus said in Matthew 24:37-39
But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be.
This cannot be speaking of the 2nd Coming, as life will definitely NOT be normal after 21 or so Judgments are poured out on the earth. This is speaking to when Christ returns for His Church at the Rapture.
But we see the quicly deteriorating conditions around the world world economically, politically, and militarily and even the most hardened skeptic knows that things will not continue on for much longer in its current state of affairs. At some point, our economy will collapse, and unless the rest of the world can delink themselves off the dollar, this has the potential to drag the whole world’s economy down.
Politicians, seeking both to keep their office and assuage the angers of their citizenry, find that blaming outside groups an effective way to redirect that anger and justification for wars. That’s pretty much how it has worked for the last 2,000 years, I see no change in that tactic anytime soon.
So while I see your cautious approach at pointing out a favorable window of time for when the Lord will return as being 20-30-40 years from now, I do not think that the facts on the ground substantiate that long a delay.
And Hal Lindsey didn’t definitively state that the Lord would return in the 1980s, he said that’s what he thought likely. Jack Kelley never said that Jesus would return NLT 2011…he said he thought that it was likely. They have opinions, as you and I do. It doesn’t make them false prophets to state an opinion about a general period of time. They are certainly not in the same camps as William Miller and Harold Camping naming the day of the Lord’s return.
Doug,
I believe I read a similar view given in your last paragraph from another source (although that person might not agree with everything else that you just said here). That view of course does not explain why Jesus would even give such an answer as a response to their questions about His return. The idea that Jesus was talking about a genetically pure human race not passing away really does not fit the context of the discourse.
Even so, God has future plans for the human race and He will not allow it to be corrupted. The fact that man is close to having the ability to create transhumans and genetic freaks is one clear sign that the Lord’s return is near.
Pete,
I agree with your assessment that Jesus was talking about the Rapture and I totally agree with your assessment of the sorry state of the world. However, you should know that I do not think the Rapture is as far off as you suggest. If I think the second coming is probably in the early 2030’s (as I do) and think the Rapture is at least 10.5 years sooner (as I do). That would mean that I think the Rapture will occur within 10 to 15 years. We are not as far apart on the timing as you suggest.
I get into why the world stage is not quite set yet for the second coming in some of my other blogs and in my 25 world trends series. so I see no point in repeating all the rationalization over again here. I will give a link to one in case someone is interested. https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/jesus-is-not-coming-to-rule-the-earth-between-2012-2019.html.
I did not say that Hal Lindsey definitively stated that Jesus would come in the 1980’s. In his “Late Great Plant Earth” he said that the state of Israel was the beginning point of the rebirth of the Fig Tree and that a generation was probably 40 years or less, so he thought all would be fulfilled sometime before 1988. He was not alone. With the Soviet Union of that era it certainly looked possible. My point was that Lindsey’s view on that passage is now quite different than 40, 70, 80 or even 120 years.
Frankly, I don’t need you telling me that I did not read what I know I read more than once. Jack Kelly did definitively say that the Rapture would occur by 2011 or 2012 (I forget which year he used) based on his 70 year from 1948 theory. We even had a discussion about his statement on this Blog and that is probably why when I refuted his timing to someone, the reciprocal link to my website got removed. Even as soon as a couple of year ago in his questions and answers Kelly said he would apologize to his readers and say he was wrong if the Rapture did not happen by that date. I don’t know if he did or not.
I never said Kelly or any of those who had dogmatic positions based on the fig tree parable were false prophets. So I do not know why you are putting words in my mouth. I have said and still think that Jack Kelly is one of the best Bible prophecy teachers out there.
Pete, your not going to find two Bible prophecy teachers that agree on everything. So why are you even trying to convince me that I should see things your way when I obviously don’t. We have been through this before you know.
Don,
The bible only gives us snippets of the full conversation, so it’s hard to know what all topics Jesus and his disciples were covering, but you’re probably correct in that it’s referring to a span of years. As I said, it was speculative. It does, however, connect with what I think is an important prophecy (not that they all aren’t important). I think when Jesus said, “as it was in the days of Noah . . .”, He was talking about a lot more than just sinfullness. I believe technologically, the antediluvian world was far more advanced than most people give it credit, probably every bit advanced as ours.
I know we don’t agree on everything, although I agree with much of what you’ve written about over the years. And I’m not trying to convince you either. I happen to think that your overly conservative on your assessments, which is the only point I made in my initial comment.
I’ve read Jack Kelly’s articles for the last 4 years or so every week, but I can’t recall him being dogmatic about it. I’ll have to go back and see. I remember him saying that IF we use Psalm 90:10 as a measuring stick (because Christ says this generation will NOT PASS AWAY) for a man’s life, then 70 years would be 2011-2012. Still, that’s ten years of wiggle room between 70-80 years.
I also agree that the Rapture does not trigger the 70th week, and that a 10 year gap or more could exist between the two. And no, you didn’t call them false prophets, maybe your implication was that they are trying to be too sensational in their predictions. I apologize, false prophets is too harsh a comment for such men.
This is your blog, I’m just a visitor, so write on.
Pete,
I would think that Kelly pulled those articles off his site. In the articles I read he was not claiming any possibility of it being 80 years. I even saw one such article reproduced on Bibleprophecy.blog but Roger W. has eliminated a lot of people that he had on his site and has added others. Kelly is no longer listed as a contributor to his site and neither am I. So I do not know if the copied posts are even on that site anymore. I know I talked to Roger W. about six months ago and he said he was going through his blog to see what articles he could remove.
Don,
I have read Jack Kelly for years now and as I recall he was giving various potential dates relative to differing interpretations of a generation. He has also noted that some feel the taking back of Jerusalem (1967)could be the start of the “countdown”, not the birth of Israel (this having to do with the time of the gentiles ending according to some). So he was covering a fairly wide field. I seem to recall he thought 2037 could could be a reference point (not really sure, it could have been later).
Also, regarding the time between the rapture and the 7 year tribulation (Daniel’s 70th week), I agree that there could easily be a interval between them. But to me, 10 years or more seems excessive. In my mind I would think God would be bringing saints into the church near to the end, maybe a couple of years? Then again, as I watch world events unfold it seems that they rush forward for a time and then back off, rush forward again only to back off once more. That pattern can easily continue after the rapture.
Anyway Don, keep up the good work. I enjoy your studied comments.
John,
Like many of us, Kelly explored different possibilities in his days. I do recall his 2037 outer dating, but as the Mayan prophecies and other 2012 things started coming into focus he seemed to focus on the Lord returning in 2018 with a 2011 and then a 2012 rapture. I have not read much of his stuff recently but lately he seems to be exploring the idea that we are already in the final 7 years and maybe the pre-wrath position of the Rapture is correct. In other words, he does not want to budge from his 2018 second coming belief. Maybe he bought into Tom Horn and/or the Mahdi Antichrist stuff. Don’t know. But those conjectures do not fly with me.
The reason I say there may be 10.5 years from the Rapture to the second coming is that I believe when the world is expecting an inclusive Christ to arrive they will receive the Antichrist for the last 3.5 years. I am failing to see much of a difference between the 3.5 year gap that I believe and the couple of years that you think is possible? Perhaps you misunderstood me? Even the eminent Dr. Thomas Ice believes there could be a number of years between the Rapture and final seven years. He thinks after the removal of the Church it could take a couple of years for someone to get into position before he is able to sign that seven year covenant. I have heard other Bible prophecy teachers say there even could be decades between the rapture and the start of the final seven years.
Hi Don,
First thing I need to ask is are we talking about the same Jack Kelly? I have never read anything of his that even hints of a belief that we are in the final 7 years much less a pre-wrath position.
Maybe I missed it. As to the 2018 date, I think that was merely one of several dates proposed relative to possible generational times. And if the time of the gentiles ending with the Jews capturing Jerusalem being a alternate jump off point, that would push the date back further. The fact that you bring this up though necessitates the need for me to go back and reread some of his articles and maybe even pose these questions to him.
The biggest problem of discussing any topic via text is it is difficult to convey a thought when inevitably it will be misunderstood. The problem in this case is that I didn’t do a very good job of “splainin” myself. I actually thought for a second that your comment to me was meant for someone else! I am smiling here, by the way and scratching my head too.
Interestingly, right after I wrote you I went to Jack Kinsella’s website and lo and behold he was writing about the length of a generation! I agree with Jack that the length of a generation Jesus was speaking of was the time that generation was born to the time they pass away, however many years that may be. Here is a link to the article if you care to read it.
http://www.omegaletter.com/articles/articles.asp?ArticleID=7523
John,
You’re correct, I just checked it out, Jack Kelly is not moving toward a pre-wrath position. I was reading through some headlines of his articles to try to find what I read on his 2018 view and I came across an article titled “IS THE PRE-WRATH CASE GROWING STRONGER”? And then I came across another article by Jack titled “THERE IS NO SEVEN YEAR TRIBULATION”. Then in the back of my head I thought I remembered that he was moving toward the Muslim antichrist position. So I put 2 and 2 and 2 together and came up with -6. I should know better than to form an opinion from titles before I read the articles.
Anyway, thanks for correcting me on my rash stupidity.
I know I read the 2018 second coming date and it sounded very definitive to me. Like I said, I remember that people asked me my opinion on his view on this blog but where that is in the 12,000+ comments seems to escape me. If anyone reading this blog over the last couple of years remembers something about it I hope you will put in your two cents.
The length of a generation is in the eye of the writer. There is more than one way to look at a generation. The Bible said there were 42 generation from Abraham to Christ and it was not talking about the length of their lifespans.
Don,
According to Exodus, the “generation” that came out of Egypt and failed to take the Promise Land had to wander for 38-40 years. God counted those 20 years old and older as part of that generation, and they wandered until they all died out. In this case a generation is 58-60 years. In another verse, a generation is 70 years or 80 if the person has strength. So, it seems reasonable that somewhere between 58 and 80 years makes up a biblical generation. That gives us a 20 year window.
So the question becomes, when did the fig tree bud? If 1948, we’re into that window. If 1967, we’re not quite there yet. allow 7-10 years lead time for the rapture to occur and either way you figure it, the Lord’s return must be close. I lean toward a date somewhere near 2030, which would be 2000 years from the Crucifixion. But who knows?
Doug
That is one way of looking at a generation. But this distinct generation was also represented as people under 20 in the first place. In other words, this generation was already identified as the offspring of the people that came out of Egypt that had not reach the age of full responsibility or accountability – they really had no say in their parents rebellion. Obvious there would be one or two new generations born before the identified generation entered the land. So I don’t think you can say a generation is 60 years or is based on a changeable lifespan. A generation normally is understood as being from the parents to their first offspring. That is why when taking a picture of an extended family we often say four generations are represented – the child, the parent, the grandparent and the great grandparent. Often there are four generations represented within 80 years.
Also in your statement you are assuming that the the Fig Tree is Israel and that it already budded. Many Bible prophecy scholars disagree with that, for example Arnold Fruchtenbaum has a completely take on that whole passage and says that a vine would be used to represent Israel if Jesus was implying Israel in that passage. If you do a word study on “vine” and “fig tree” in the Bible he has a strong case.
I said all that to say this, we do not have it all figured out and that is why these dating projections fail.
My last word on this (and why I am right). To borrow a quote… “I was only wrong once in my life, and that was when I thought I was wrong but wasn’t”. So, it’s settled then! Now I am going out to play. As for you Don, and all of your readers, I am VERY impressed by the knowledge and understanding here. I learned some very interesting points of view! Blessings to all of you!
John,
Can I come out and play too?