The death of outspoken conservative Andrew Breitbart last week was quite a shock especially since he was telling everyone that something would be unveiled on March 1st about Obama that would be the beginning of the end for Obama. Breitbart collapsed and died while walking home from a bar shortly after midnight on the morning of March 1st.
Andrew Breitbart was only 43 but thus far police are saying that he died of natural causes. An autopsy has been performed but they say they are still waiting for the toxicology report before the finding will be released. Some alternative media sites are wondering about the reason for the long delay in the toxicology report.
Someone that young dying of natural causes on the very day that he was going to announce something on Obama, and the day he was going to launch a new website for the cause of bringing down Obama, is stranger than fiction. We are told that Breitbart had a bad heart but even bad hearts are treatable. The fact that nobody expected Breitbart to die anytime soon from his heart problem tells me that whatever problem he had with his heart was thought to be under control.
Even if a person with a bad heart dies of a heart attack that does not mean the heart attack came about by natural causes. There are substances that can induce a heart attack in a person with known heart problem that might never be detected in an autopsy. We may never know what actually happened that night.
Some were warning Breitbart that his life could be in danger because of the fearless investigative reporting that he was doing on Obama and his mentors and backers. Are we now going to see a repeat of the Clinton years where people just died for obscure reasons because they knew too much? Mysterious deaths like those that happened to Vincent Foster and Ron Brown seem to happen all too often when someone is about to spill his guts to those investigating corruption on the Far Left.
Anyway, whatever the truth, the people who were working with Breitbart plan to release the information that they have on Obama over the weeks and months ahead. They say that Obama will be vetted this time. They say the American people will know who Obama really is before they get to vote for him again (I have my doubts). Mainstream media had information on how radical Obama was in 2008 but it seems the power brokers decided to keep that information from the American people.
What gets even more weird, is on the same date that Breitbart died, Sheriff Joseph Arpaio of Maricopa County Arizona reported on the findings of his 250 person Cold Case investigation posse. They were tasked to investigate the alleged claims of forgery and fraud in reference to Obama being constitutionally eligible to be President.
The Sheriff announced on March 1st that there is probable cause to believe the claimed Obama birth certificate is a forgery. This is the same birth certificate that Obama was waving around and that has been flaunted on leftist websites. Sheriff Arpaio said the investigators found that there is probable cause to believe that crimes were committed. So the Cold Case Posse investigation will continue.
One of the main findings was that the birth certificate that was released to the public as proof of Obama’s birth, was a forgery that was actually created on a computer and they have identified the computer. Other claims were that his Selective Service card allegedly filed in 1980 is also a forgery, there is reason to believe that Obama’s birth records were obscured by officials in the state of Hawaii, and documents went missing from immigration records for the week that Obama’s mother returned to this country from Africa about the time of Obama’s birth.
Obama’s whole life is another story stranger than fiction. He was brought up by communists and homosexual radicals and later Obama got mentored by radical professors and his pastor. These people blame the white race for all evil then without vetting their radical disciple becomes president of the United States.
You could not make this stuff up. This story is as about as strange as Rosemary’s baby. The whole conspiracy to get Obama elected was set up by very powerful international power brokers that have strong connections within academia, union leadership, the Democratic Party, banks, corporations, MSM, race organizations, feminist organizations, homosexual organizations, religious organizations and elsewhere.
At this point the Maricopa County sheriff says there is no valid proof at all that Obama was even born in this country. They also say Obama can clear this all up by just coming up with an original copy of His birth certificate. However, if Obama had nothing to hide he would have done that years ago.
Instead Obama spent huge amounts of money in lawyers fees to block access to his birth certificate. Then when Donald Trump got the attention of the American people when running for President mostly on the Obama birth certificate issue, Obama’s people suddenly came up with a birth certificate that the Cold Case Posse and other experts say is a computer generated forgery? That did not keep Obama from waving it around toward the Republicans like he thought it was real.
There really is no excuse for not being able to produce a valid birth certificate if you were born in this country. Average people have to come up with a valid birth certificate for all kinds of things in this country, like a job, security clearance, college, a passport or even a driver’s license. The Constitution requires that the president be a natural born citizen and a candidate for President should be required to show proof that he meets that constitutional requirement.
One might think that exposing the cover-up about Obama and the revelation of just how radical his views are, and the radicals he grew up with, and the radical that he associated with, would be the beginning of the end for Obama’s reelection chances in 2012, but don’t bet on it. Mainstream media will attempt to destroy the messengers and twist the truth. After all, Obama could not have even risen to power if MSM did their job to vet Obama in 2008. Instead, it seems that they have conspired to keep information about Obama from the American people.
My concern is that Fox News and Drudge and people like Limbaugh, Hannity and Savage, etc. will only be preaching to the choir about Obama. I think almost half of Americans would still vote for Obama even if they were given absolute proof that he is not constitutionally eligible to be President and is a racist communist plant that really wants to bring America down. The reason I believe that, is because I think that a whole lot of people in America have already been indoctrinated into communist socialism and racism under the disguise of names like humanism, affirmative action, feminism, diversity, environmentalism, liberation, progressivism, liberalism, social justice, correctness, tolerance, freedom from religion, national security, etc.
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The sun is becoming more active. Within the last week we had a X1 and a X5 flare on the sun from the same sunspot. More major flares could be coming from this solar storm before it is finished. X class flares are the strongest classification. This X5 is the strongest flare in the latest 11 year solar cycle. The solar cycle peak activity should occur next year, so it should be no surprise that solar storm activity is now picking up. Keep in mind that X20 or higher flares directed toward the earth could fry high voltage electrical transformers and if that happened the US electrical grid or parts of the grid could cease to exist.
The top experts say there is a one-in-eight chance within the next few years that there will be a naturally occurring solar storm powerful enough to fry unprotected high voltage transformers causing the loss of the electrical grid that would cost us trillions. This is not science fiction, such solar storms have been recorded in the not to distant past, but they occurred before we had a national electrical grid. Flares powerful enough to take down the national grid happen in about 1 out of 8 solar cycles.
You might think that congress would spend the billion dollars or so that it would cost to protect a few hundred irreplaceable ultra high voltage transformers from being fried by a solar storm; however, the ShieldAct to do that, has gone nowhere in Congress. I guess they think that the possibility of losing trillions of dollars and thousand of lives in the following riots and infrastructure disruptions does not warrant spending a billion dollars to prevent such a possibility? I guess the reasoning for politicians doing nothing is, if Americans do not really understand this threat, it does not effect their vote.
One day soon you might literally wake up in the dark with no hope of having electricity like usual in much of this country, and it could be years before things get back toward normal. Congress has delayed what it needs to do so long now that it is already too late to protect the high voltage transformers for the solar peak that has now begun.
Like I said, there is a one-in-eight chance that a solar storm will eliminate the United States as a first world country before 2015, but Congress is betting the future of this nation that a naturally occurring solar flare (like we have had before) won’t happen during this peak solar cycle.
Never mind the other real threat to our dependence on electricity is a nuclear EMP. This is Russian Roulette insanity; being totally dependent on a few hundred ultra high voltage electrical transformers is how a civilization can collapse within a matter of weeks; it could be America’s fatal mistake. We would be a footnote in history almost instantly. You can find out more information on this threat and be keep up to date on www.empactradio.com.
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I don’t know what Israel will do and we are getting conflicting messages from the experts. Our intelligence agencies are too political and usually wrong on nuclear activity of other nations, so I don’t see why Israel would buy our line about Iran’s nuclear capabilities. I agree with the general that says they most likely already have a nuke. They have been working on it for 25 years.
There are reports that the US denies that says Israel asked for more advanced bunker buster bombs and refueling aircraft if they are to delay their strike on Iran until 2013. That only makes sense to me, because if they do not get the ability to damage the hardened sites that Iran is moving its bomb making equipment into, Israel will have to hit Iran very soon to halt their nuclear program for any significant time. So whether or not Israel delays the strike on Iran into next year could be dependent on Israel getting that equipment in the next few months. I don’t think Obama will want to deal with Iran just before the Democratic Convention so Israel will probably get most of what they want.
If I had to bet, I would bet that Israel will not hit Iran before the US election; but not only because of the US election, but because hitting Iran now would alienate most of the world. Everyone in the Western World now wants to believe that economic sanctions will convince Iran to cooperate. Israel obviously hopes it will, but if the sanctions don’t stop Iran from developing nuclear weapons and the world still does nothing, Israel then intends to be master of its own fate.
It looks like Syria is going to be on the front burner this Spring. I think the wishful thinkers actually think there will be something better in Syria if they get rid of Assad. If the Muslim Brotherhood takes over Syria it could push Iran out of the Middle East and toward Russia. That might solve one immediate problem but it will create other problems in the future. Russia is the prophetic direction that Iran will go in the long run anyway. Of course, if something happens to the United States like a solar flare, EMP, economic collapse or any such event, world war in Europe the Middle East and Asia will follow just about immediately.
Once Syria gets Brother-Hooded I think Jordan will be the next country on the Sunni hit list.
North Korea is promising to halt their nuclear weapons program for food. Seems they will continue using the same rope-a-dope strategy toward the US as they have before. As long as there is a big dope feeding the tyrants and their army they have no reason to change their Statist socialist backward ways that led to mass starvation.
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I guess I should say something about the Republican primaries. It is starting to look like we will get a progressive Mormon. Even if the other three get enough delegates between them to stop Romney from getting the required delegates, one of the other three candidates will become the king-maker or should I say god-maker for an appointment to be his Vice President.
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This Blog has now exceeded one million views as of this month. 😎
Be grateful for today,for tomorrow will be worse.
Congratulations on 1 million Don,
I think your right… The next year is going to a wild ride.
Don, The obviously poor job on the birth certificate was discussed on your blog awhile back. The poor quality fake was intentionally released. To me, the question of “why” still remains.
Bob,
Yeah, I mentioned that I thought it appeared to be a phoney based on what I read, but now Maricopa County law enforcement agrees that the birth certificate is a forgery.
Why do I think they forged it? Because there is no Hawaii birth certificate. Obama was born in Kenya and then he was flown to Hawaii. This birth certificate was put together in a panic To pull the wheels from under Donald Trump. Remember he had investigators in Kenya and Hawaii trying to get information on Obama’s birth.
When they presented this birth certificate they said right off that nothing would satisfy skeptics and some would still claim that this was a fake. They knew MSM and the Judges would not dare touch this. And it worked until the Obama administration got into a pissing contest with Joe Arpaio on his immigration enforcement, but most media still will try to keep this covered up.
Congrats Don on the 1 million plus views!
Bob from Texas,
Maybe they want it as a distraction so people forget the real problems we face as a nation.
Thanks Jim,
The illegal activity is not a distraction. One of the real problems that we face in this nation is that we have people running our government that were put in government illegally and they are illegally carrying out acts to bring America down.
WorldNetDaily (WND) News is reporting the following today:
Pravda asks: What happened to American media?
Accuses U.S. press of ‘deliberately hiding evidence’ of Obama’s ‘fraud’
If Russia’s major news source is wondering why our MSM are not focused on this fraud, it really should make all of us “wake-up.” But, I agree, I believe the DELUSION in USA is so strong, where would we begin?
JerryB,
One of the Republican candidates could gain traction if they had the guts to bring up this issue. If they remain scared to even mention this fraud I predict a viable third party candidate will emerge. Here in the heartland most conservative people already suspected what the Cold Case Posse found out.
It is obvious that “America As We Knew It” is in a coma. The whole birth certificate thing is the “canary” that should have woken up this comatose country! I can’t think about it anymore. It depresses me. I’m focusing on God’s Will and what HE wants me to do for HIM in the garden HE has planted me in. My heart aches deeply for the loss of my America…but I am a Christian first…an American second. I am voting for whoever wins the Republican Primary because ….”anyone but Obama!”…even so, I feel that spiritually, I am very uncomfortable with voting at all! I don’t want to be a hermit…but…things are not looking good out there. Don…I really, really, reallly appreciate you for keeping us focused.
I received an email last week that listed quite a number of people that have “mysteriously” died who were connected to Obama and/or his cronies. The Clinton’s had two notables–Vince Foster and Ron Brown. But look at the list below for Obama. When you have time, Google some of these names side-by-side with Barack Obama and read/study what you find.
David Koschman
Ashley Turton
Sarah Berkley
Russell McDougal
Rodrigo Villalopez
Brian Goring
Mercedes Hugley
Tamika Hill
Hasad Al Shareez
Darsano Rahardjo
Rev. David Manning and his son Jamal Manning
Christopher Hargrove
Paul Rothchild
Curtis “Pookie” Jackson
Harvey Kenyon
Sheila Baugh
Keyshawn “Spoon” Calworth
Lawshawna Martin
Bill Ferguson
Gandy Baugh
Kam Kuwata
Lt. Quarles Harris Jr.
Christopher Kelly
John Wheeler
Donald Young
Larry Bland
Nate Spencer
Beverly Eckert
Michael Scott
Don,
With all the brainwashing in acedemia and in the MSM pretty soon they won’t have to do anything illegally. Once the majority of people are indoctrinated to accept the far leftists agenda they will vote for the communist globalists every time. Christian conservatives will be considered the bad guys.
Hello Don,
Congratulations on your millionth blog viewer. You must be getting the word out. And I know I speak for many people here, the next 12 months is going to be one “wild ride”.
Out of interest to your readers. They maybe interested in this website,the content is free and the commentary is very sound.
http://www.1913intel.com
Cheers.
Congrats on the Mile Stone!!
Another year of those Birth Pains for sure!
2012 has already started as another year of natural distasters which economically alone is going to have damaging consequences for the states.
Regarding your Irael bet http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4201228,00.html
Plus I think the Gaza rockets are just attempts to distract Israel and try to keep them off balance. However, if they push to hard they many end up just escalating things right into that Ps 83 senario.
I will still say that Israel is not going to sit on their hands and if they feel a nuke is in Iran they will launch.
Syria, this just blows my mind and goes to show how much of a harbour of “evil” the UN has become. Expecting nothing good here. http://blog.unwatch.org/index.php/2012/03/08/scandal-unesco-vote-keeps-assad-regime-on-human-rights-committee/
I have got a theory and maybe I heard it hear first. So here it goes….. Basiclly Obama and Romney are one in the same for they both have the same liberal views about big government (ie romney care and obama care). Well when Romeny gets the nomination the leftest media will point that out and then pull the race card thus divideing the country even more and all that will help Obama stay in office. Anyway from a Christian perspective would it be better for the Church if Obama got re-elected and his hard core marxist views be put in place for the sake of unifying the Church under Biblial truth under what seems to be the coming christian persacution of the west. Thus maybe more people would come to know God thru Christ alone or is it better to have a soft and slow persacution under the banner of quazi christian big brother were the church is divided and marginilized?
I know Christ is in control no matter what but since we get to choose or elected officials then how would you choose the final blow?
Wow, Wow, someone has done his homework. Yes, obama is a fraud, furthermore he is an instrument is the hands of evil groups set on the elimination of the American Constitution and way of life. So you say, let’s get rid of 0bama? That won’t help; he is just a puppet of secret organizations that control which are in control. If you did remove obama they would only put others in their place. The only real chance you have it to know where you will spend eternity. God, the Lord Jesus Christ, is in charge and offers you two choices, accept Jesus Christ, the Gospel (I Corinthians 15:1 – 4) read the Book of Romans and other writings of Paul the Apostle to the Gentile’s. Remember one thing, it’s not the president of Iran, it’s not the Muslim people, it’s not the Chinese or the Russians. Ephesian 6:12 has the answer:::
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Clint,
Who knows? If Romney gets elected he is not going to solve the problems of the country and the world anyway. Then in 2014 and 2016 the hard left will probably make a big come back and take over all three branches of government for good. Free speech will be silenced.
If this country is to have any hope it has to turn back toward liberty and constitutional government this election year. However,that will surly bring massive riots instigated by the Far Left radicals. You’re going to see much more civil disobedience and polarization from the Far Left in the next several months even before the fall election.
This country is already too divided. There can be no United States in reality or even a facade of a United States beyond another year or two. We will either have a police state dictatorship or there will be secession and civil disobedience. The way we are going, persecution will come against fundamental Christians even from other Christians, because even the new evangelical’s allegiance and worldviews are now toward humanistic social justice and globalism rather than the ways given in God’s word.
Edward,
I guess if you want to believe America is totally in Satan’s control and out of God’s control you will be a fatalist. However, if one thinks that Christians can influence the places where we do occupy in great numbers you might come to a different conclusion.
If we are to war against principalities and powers then it is only logical that those that do so should expect to use those spiritual weapons to win some battles.
Greetings Don~
Congratulations on the mile stone! You know, it is disheartening that Obama has gotten away with major crime since the beginning. This should never have happened. The fact that someone has the audacity to run for President of the USA when they weren’t legitimate shows their understanding of how far we have gone as a nation. That there are so many people along the way that would participate, (media and others) is horrific. If you have the ability to con the masses & get away with it, then there is nothing you nor your backers wouldn’t do to keep the power you have gained. As for Israel, God be with them! If they believe our current administration will have their back, they had better not wait until after the election to find out! Once he has the votes he needs, he will not ‘have their back’. We live in precarious times. I belong to The Lord and for that I am grateful! Thanks Don…
First Congratulation on your view count and well deserved I might add; I have linked to you many times on some social network and blogs. Hopfully they are all good guys, but even so you have planted seeds and may God create a bountiful harvest.
Back to the BC; I have been a “birther” from the onset. But another thing that even if obama was born in America, he still would not be qualified to be a NBC under the definition of a NBC in The Federalist Papers, if obama Sr “was” his father and was born in Kenya. Kenya at the time of Sr’s birth was under British control and the British Nationality Act of 1948 (if one can muddle through it)would make a person a citizen of Britian for life and any of their born. Also Sheriff Joe brought out that a NBC’s parents has to reside in the US for so many years, which would also exclude his mother, Stanley Ann, since she traveled (A “fellow traveler”, by communist terminology)and lived for years in other countries. I agree with you and others that it really doesn’t matter much to the ones that want him in office. Most of them get so many perks and paybacks (at the taxpayers expense of course)
Was reading about the rise of Hitler and how his minions started by rioting and demostrating in the streets and this so reminds me what is going on today with the OWSers which is still supported by the same ole enemies we had during the anti-war hippies in the 60s. (And the Bolshviks in Russia.)
Correction: that would not be “citizen” but “subject” in reference to Britian.
I did forget to let us pray for Andrew’s family, his friends and may his followers continue what he started. And pray that the truth comes out about his suspicous and untimely death. When, I seen his video at CPAC and he warned about the coming video, I sort of thought he had just signed his death warrent. Scarey stuff.
http://flashtrafficblog.wordpress.com/2012/03/12/more-than-200-rockets-fired-at-israel-no-let-up-yet-in-palestinian-offensive-against-the-jewish-state/
For we wrestle not against flesh and blood…..
Satanic forces keep the Middle East in a state of war and increased hatred toward the West. An overboard thought? Perhaps not, just consider the bigger picture that after all attempts to build bridges and bring democracy to the Middle East we have the following.
Afghanistan despite all effort, time and lives I believe Satan motivates a number of soldiers to pee on deed Afghans, burn the Koran and a single soldier goes on a shooting rampage killing civilians. Results are —- intense hatred of the west. Might as well pull out as I predict this will just continue to be messed up and the US and others may soon be fighting more than just the Taliban.
The Muslim Brotherhood (Pro radical Islam and Sharia law party) winning and controlling a number of the newly “freed” countries.
Syria and Assad… need we say more. Even if he is ousted what then,,, free elections to bring in the Muslim Brotherhood party. Lose, lose.
Iran, well like Hitler and Germany we will watch them progress right to the edge pushing Israel to take the offensive.
Gaza, as you read from the above link has escalated to what I would call a state of war with Israel using longer range missiles. Is this to distract Israel from Iran? Or is this a prelude to the PS 83 War?
Iran is partnered with Russia in Ez 38 so either they get a bit of a spanking if Israel strikes or because the Ps 83 war breaks out and sees Israel defeat the evil confederacy that they decide to hold off and partner with bigger allies
Canada’s biggest ally to the south is walking a sad road and the upcoming election will do nothing to change that. I believe they are mortally wounded and they may bleed out or implode. Even we in Canada walk a thin line and for all of Islam’s hatred toward us there seems to be little godly about us for them to hate. Still they do and will continue their objectives.
Of course the pro-Islamic and evil empire we know as the UN does nothing but veto the West, support Assad and condemn Israel.
So I don’t think it is a stretch to see that larger forces are at work moving both the pawns and the big pieces on the board.
David Little,
Good perspectives. I think we are heading for something big myself and all this other stuff is just leading up to it.
By the way, nobody is saying it and maybe it has nothing to do with why the Sargent killed those Afganistans, but when Americans get killed by the very people that they are fighting for in Afghanistan just because guards burned four Qurans that the Islamic prisoners had already desecrated by tearing out pages and writing notes on the pages to each other, is it any wonder that certain military people will lose it under those rules of engagement?
Frankly, I am surprised that more military do not go berserk. These rules of engagement are just another way for douple mouthed politicians in this administration to give lip service to our professional military but then destroy them with their politically correct and Islamic correct policies. It is amazing that the generals go along with it. Many of them must be hand picked cowards themselves. We should never have got into nation building in an areas of the world that are controlled by tribal warlords.
Don, I’ve stated it before here that, to my shame and embarassment, I never served in the military for this country. I missed Viet Nam by about 5 years, and although I registered for the draft, they stopped it. There isn’t a day since 9/11 goes by that I feel a deep remorse for not having volunteered, and sometimes I think, deep down, thats why I became a Police Officer. However, I sort of think its relatively easy to see why the Sgt. went off; I can’t believe it dosent happen far more often. 3 tours in Iraq and then a 4th in that hole of a country they call Afghanistan? Forget about the nonsense of the accidental burning of that rag they consider a “holy” book that caused them to kill THEIR OWN PEOPLE WITH NO HELP FROM US; forget the groveling of our “president’ (small letters intentional) to these camel loving perverts to allay their precious hurt feelings while they still suck at the tit of U.S. aid; exactly how many times can you expect ANYONE but a CYBORG to be able to be ripped away from their wives, children, etc., to go “fight” ffor the poor opressed “victims” and NOT CRACK UP? Better yet, have someone serve 3,4,5,tours of duty, have them finally come home, only to find that they lost their homes, they’re jobless, the V.A. wants to ignore them for needed services, and then be SO surprised and shocked if that person has great difficulty fitting back in to “normal society” after they risked their asses for a bunch of unappreciative, uncaring ZOMBIES who only care who won on American Idol or where they’re gonna go get liquored up on St.Paddies day. I weep for these poor bastards who actually cared enough to stand up for this country, only for this same country to take a HUGH crap all over them and their efforts. Go fight for us in the U.S., but when you come back, “Jan the Man” may very well consider you to be a security risk…thank you for your service, you;re under arrest.
Well said Michael,
I am sure you have your own war going on right in your own city. We vets appreciate what you police officers are doing to make our homeland have some semblance of law and order in very difficult times. In fact, we consider you one of us unless you are one of those that blindly follow “Jan the man”. In this generation can we even imagine what it would be like in the cities without the thin blue line? Yeah, it would be Mad Max territory everywhere and not just in the gangland areas.
Michael Angelo ,
First of all , I appreciate you having the courage to do a difficult job in a difficult city. I have immense respect for police officers, most of us have no clue what you have to deal with on a daily basis. It is beyond shameful the way our government treats our military veterans. The best example of being politically incorrect ever is Jesus Himself. It was Jesus who had a problem with the relegious establishment and their self righteousness. I will always remember the church sign I saw that said : ” Jesus declared the TRUTH , HE NEVER debated it.” Our society in America has become one where people want THE TRUTH to be negotiable. Every day we have is a gift from The Lord to be salt and light, may He help us do it. BLESSINGS to YOU Michael and STAY SAFE!!!!!!!
Congratulations Don! May our *Extravagant* God continue to bless this ministry in which You serve beside Him!
Thank you for watching-out and sharing your analysis. It is grim, but necessary…
Just a few scattered thoughts:
* From what I’ve seen, I *do* believe the president’s birth certificate is a forgery. My thought is that with all the resources at the left’s disposal, why such poor fakes? This (and the “Rathergate” documents) would make a real forger blush with embarrassment. Goodness! Even I could have made better forgeries!
* I’m not sure that I will even vote for a president this year. I cannot support any of the candidates in good faith. What I actually do will depend on what I believe God’s Spirit would have me do at the time. I forebode that this will be the last American presidential election as we have known them in freedom…
* I am increasingly convicted that the Church’s position (in America) on the “culture war” has become counter-productive to the cause of Christ:
While I think that most believers sincerely think they are doing God’s will in fighting wrong this way, I think that we have been maneuvered by the evil one into stressing negative issues that are unrelated to salvation at the expense of God’s gift of pardon through Jesus. In a way, this is like losing our first love: the sin has become greater than the sinner; “holiness” has become more important (and easier) than the grubby work of loving people who can be unholy and unlovely…
(I realize that I’m calling down the wrath of fellow believers upon myself by saying all this. {sigh})
…If God’s priority was to eradicate sin, then He would have simply destroyed us all at the outset instead of bearing all the sin Himself through Jesus. OR He could have zapped us all into sinlessness when we accepted Jesus. He’s done neither: for some reason He’s bearing the cost, taking the hard path, having us join with Him to work it the sin out of us, even as He has the impossible part for us. Sin *will* be eradicated, but first, His beloved people will be redeemed from its penalty, its curse, and eventually its very presence…He calls: some will come; He wants us all…will we pass the word to others too?
The concern is we (at least in America) are known more for what we are against (in the culture) than for the fact that we are for people Christ died for: getting a sinner (or “sinner”) to change their ways before they can join us “respectable” Christians is a fatal mistake – NONE of us are respectable! Only Jesus’ righteousness applied to us makes us righteous. Only God can breath life into our dead spirits. Only His Spirit can make our character like Christ’s.
There is only one sin that is not covered by Jesus’ blood, and that’s the sin of rejecting Him. God knows about all the rest, has endured it, and He even knows that we can hardly take a breath without sinning *in some way* we may not even be conscious of (even as His blood-bought adopted children) – He’s taken all that into account, and He still wants us to take the risk to live and to love others. We can turn into ourselves, in our protective shell against the world, denouncing what we know (or think) is wrong, and we take no real risks: by this, we have buried the talent our Great King gave to us: Gaining a return IN THIS WORLD requires that we step-out knowing that there will be risks and that we will even sin in the process of investing our talent for Him; we are humans with sin natures and such cannot be avoided – God knows this is now the cost of life and of love in this age.
I think He wants us to damn the risk, look to Him and move forward to allow Him to love through us, and when we slip along the way, He has an “app” for that called: Graceful Forgiveness.
I used to be so afraid of sinning, of piling more and more of my awful self into God’s lap, and I would withdraw and become useless to anyone, I would not share God’s love (which includes His Gospel) for fear that I would screw it up and make the recipient worse-off than before. Moreover, I squashed who I am down into myself and lived a quiet, respectable lie before others. No more, Jesus set me free from that confinement; He’s convinced me that life is worth the risk, and He will bear the consequences of my growing in grace (like a parent deals with the broken vase that a toddler tips-over as they are learning to walk). So, now I am free to be who I am, and Christ shines through with a Brett-coloured hue as with stained-glass: broken, yet beautiful, and holy because I am His beloved. AND if I am wrong in any of this, in all of this, then I will bear that cost at the Bema, but I will not bury what God created in me, what Jesus died to redeem in me, what His Spirit nurtures in me…I will not bury it anymore, and if I lose it, I lose it: I will still embrace my King who loves me regardless though my clothes be burned away…
Anyway, thanks for putting-up with me Don, and Everyone. {very small voice}
Abba, our Dearest Heavenly Father, we are weary and frustrated with the evil in the world, and within ourselves. Please forgive us for when we’ve fallen short…we do this constantly, it seems…and to get through the day we try not to dwell on all the things we are part of that You would rather be different…much less the things we are blind to in ourselves and around us. We and the world are saturated with sin, and we cannot escape its taint while in this world as it is presently. This is not news to You: You call us to live in the world but not be “of” it. This is not a call to absolute separation as some of us think (and some do), rather its a call to risk ourselves to get dirty, knowing You hold the lifeline of grace and forgiveness, and as with the vine & branch, all we need flows from You into us, so that we can bear good, sweet fruit that You will use to draw people to Yourself and also as a way to begin the redemption of Your creation. And even the best of fruit so often bears a bit of blemish or imperfection; sometimes good fruit falls to the ground (seemingly wasted), sometimes it even rots on the vine! But fruit is for reproduction and for nourishing others, and Your good fruit in us is to propagate Your love for the people in this world, even those “of” this world. Please help us in this…we are hopeless ourselves, but everything in Christ! Please master our strengths, and exercise Your power in our weaknesses! It is our joy to be Yours: You are our Lover and You have taken us as Your Beloved! We praise You Lord: Father, Jesus and Spirit!
Yes brother Brett, we must run the race until the end… though some days can be more difficult than others. Sometimes I feel like I have nowhere to turn to find peace from this place – within and without me. Satan and his dominion, that is this world – and that is the men and women who succumb to his deceit because they lust for pride and the desire for the carnal pleasures of this world. It feels like there is this pit full of evils, and those that dwell within, incessantly beckon me to joint them in their wickedness… “come have some of this wine with us, get drunk, let go of you inhibitions, jump down into the pit, everyone is here… some of your family and some old friends ” YET although I am someway compelled to look upon and recognize this evil… in the end it has NO POWER over me. God’s word (His truth) quickly comes to mind and restores me with a new hope and refuels me with the knowledge of what is to come… for me his child and for those that chose the pit. His word is the only place that I find peace now!
I think these verses from the book of Romans echo much of your thought above.
What then shall we say? That the law is sin? By no means! Yet if it had not been for the law, I would not have known sin. For I would not have known what it is to covet if the law had not said, “You shall not covet.” But sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, produced in me all kinds of covetousness. For apart from the law, sin lies dead. I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died. The very commandment that promised life proved to be death to me. For sin, seizing an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. So the law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good. Did that which is good, then, bring death to me? By no means! It was sin, producing death in me through what is good, in order that sin might be shown to be sin, and through the commandment might become sinful beyond measure. For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Don & Everyone?
I know this is seriously off-topic, but a young Pagan, acquaintance (Franchesca) has called me and she’s suicidal. Her fiance’s brother has threatened to kill her and beat his brother because he found-out that she’s transgender. This person and her family (who call themselves Christians) are using Jesus as justification to hurt them. (Sadly, this is not the first time with her family.)
Please pray for her and the other people involved. Pray that they allow Jesus into this situation and into their lives. Please pray for us, as my wife and I have offered her a place to stay for a while, and I may need to get her (she’s in the next state). Abba, please meet their deepest needs, and protect Franchesca from taking her life…Please surround her and protect her from those who would hurt hurt; please give her saving faith…Spirit! Please intercede!
Thank You Everyone!
(Don, I’m sorry to post this here, but we are desperate…delete this comment if you must, but please pray first!)
Brett,
I pray that God will use you to help believers to get biblical perspectives and to help unbelievers to hear and believe.
Just as a reminder, my monthly perspectives is the place to be off topic.
Thank you Don; I feel like I come perilously close to abusing your comment area at times. I appreciate your grace and prayers. 🙂
It is beyond amazing to me how the Palestinians fire their rockets from Gaza into Israel, Israel retaliates, then somehow the Palestinians end up victims of an Israeli massacre…as some reports show.
And of all people, Assad from Syria, condemning the Israeli retaliation ?…huh ?
David ,
The whole Israel issue is driven by satanic hatred . BLESSINGS!!!!!!!!!!
Even more sickening is the recent “Christ at the Checkpoint” anti-Israel rally that was held in Bethlehem recently. The PA Prime minister Fayyad opened it with a speech that included reference to the Palestinian NONE VIOLENT RESISTANCE. These “Christians” who attended that rally should have been made to run the gauntlet of rock throwing NONE VIOLENT peace loving Pals that line the Israeli highways every day.
With regard to the hypocrisy of recent events in Afganistan. It will be interesting to hear what charges are brought against the soldiers who burned the Korans in light of the fact that burning and burying are the only two ways authorised by Islam for destroying Korans.
Phil,
How do the Afgan people even know that the guards that burned the Qur’an were not Muslim? After all, Obama tells the world that we are not a Christian nation and many modern Christian preachers say that Allah is just another name for our God.
Don ,
We know that Iran is ancient Persia , Turkey is Togarmah, Russia is Gog and Magog in the Ezekiel 38 and 39 scenario. Any thoughts on where Afghanistan and Pakistan may be included ?
Don,
They are kingdoms of the east so they would be included in the Kings of the East.
THERE IS NO GOD !
You “Christians” are delusional !
Yeah, that is the rhetoric that I hear some of the time from the people of this world.
How sad it is to depend on man’s failed leadership when The Lord God of Eternity has laid out the destination of man with absolutes.
Even when things like Damascus is destroyed, I think many will still make excuses as to why it’s just a “coincidence”…though prophesied thousands of years ago.
To depend on The Lord at all times is victory that cannot be matched by anything this world has to offer.
There is nothing overwhelming happening in this world and nothing can destroy us that depend on the The Lord. If we die and we are one of The Lord’s…we are ultimately victorious.
Don, this is just a blurb on my part, based on things I’ve seen and heard from society lately.
Even so, come Lord Jesus!
The headlines just keep getting more intense. Birth pains increasing.
Russian Troops now in Syria!
PA president Abbas putting ulimatium to Israel!
Suadi Arbia “Destroy all Churches”!
On March 16th, President Obama signed a new Executive Order which expands upon a prior order issued in 1950 for Disaster Preparedness, and gives the office of the President complete control over all the resources in the United States in times of war or emergency.
Obama’s Muslim Adviser: Assad Too Soft on Israel
A Muslim adviser to the Obama White House tweeted last week that Syrian President Bashar al-Assad can’t deliver ‘resistance to Israel.’ http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/153862
Man the Watch Towers! The enemy is at the gates and we are ill-prepared
Ref: Assad Too Soft on Israel
Same as Gadaffi and Mubarak; so it doen’t take much to figure that one out for us.
Waiting for the Nazi signs now in Syria.
David Little ,
Nothing new about the the enemy being at the gates, Jesus said the gates of hell would NOT prevail against His Church , He never said they would not attack. As for Israel, God has a plan and He will achieve it in His way at His time. I know a pastor who tells his congregation that you cannot flip God off and win , everyone who tries to destroy Israel is flipping God off in my opinion. It will be interesting to see how the events in Syria turn out , I think God may surprise everyone . BLESSINGS!!!!!!!!!
Agreed, I believe more than ever things are coming to a head and would not be surprised to see Ps 83 unfold.
To me it just raises the ungency with which we Seek First His Kingdom and how the majority of His Church is largely unaware of the nearness of time and the signifance of all the “Birth Pain’s” that have been happening.
Hi Don Fritts,
My need for help is in regard to approaching homosexuals with the Gospel.
To be honest, I have a tendency to shy away from telling the homosexuals (that have a strong presence in my town) about the Gospel, which is wrong of me.
I have decided that I must come up with a productive way to reach these people, even though, I have strong feelings against their lifestyle.
Some words of wisdom that I have received from a trusted source said (and I’m slightly modifying this)…
“”Homosexuality is a result of choosing sin, it is not the cause of sin. If there are homosexuals among us, we are not going to reach them for Christ by telling them that they are sinners. They already know that. We can only tell them of the love of God who sent His Son to die and free us from the bondage of sin and give us eternal life. They then can either accept Him or reject Him.””
Mr Fritts, do you have any further advice ?
Rod from Oregon, do you have any advice ?
Thank you so much.
David ,
There is no one size fits all answer to the question. There are homosexuals who know what they are doing is wrong, however there are some who truly believe they are doing nothing wrong. You have to be led by The Holy Spirit in this type of endeavor or you will probably do more harm than good. Our society has become one where people want The Truth to be negotiable. Paul clearly says in Romans 1 they have exchanged The Truth for a lie. Every individual is unique so trying to minister to homosexuals has to be on a one on one individual basis . Prayer, Prayer, and More Prayer is the starting point in my opinion. You have tp allow The Holy Spirit to lead, you can’t do anything without His involvement. I have no experience in this area so I don’t think I am a good person to be giving anyone advice here. BLESSINGS!!!!!!!!!
David & Everyone,
I too have struggled with approaching homosexual people with the Gospel.
Might I recommend the following book?
“Is The Homosexual My Neighbor?”
http://www.amazon.com/Homosexual-Neighbor-Revised-Updated-Christian/dp/0060670789/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1332610864&sr=1-1
…It was quite an eye opener.
Also, David, if you would like to contact me privately, I have a number other resources and personal comments about homosexuality and Christianity: brett.blatchleyATgmail.com
Abba, this is *such* a divisive topic and Your children are on both sides of this. You also have children, our fellow brothers and sisters who struggle with their same-sex orientation who have to hide because so many of their fellow believers think You have singled them out as special objects of wrath, and treat them accordingly, even treat them as sub-human (whilst believing that they are doing the “loving thing,” doing “God’s work.” There is *so much* misinformation, falsehood, venom. Father, please bring clarity, humility – Abba! the very fruits of the Spirit into this debate! Homosexuality is not a salvation issue, but so many Christians treat it like it is! BUT You know it is an *existential* issue to homosexual people themselves. Please give us more of Your perspective even as You make us more and more in the character of Christ. Please help us to engage the LGBTQ community in a way where they see Jesus, see past the unnecessary hurt the Church has perpetrated. Please help us to know and befriend some in this community so that we can see that they are people too, people Jesus died for too. We look to Your grace, mercy, wisdom, yes, to Your *extravagance*! We praise Your Lord, our Love: Father, Jesus and Spirit!
Thank you Don Fritts and Brett Blatchley.
And anyone else who would like to comment.
—————
Brett, It is my understanding (or misunderstanding) that homosexuality is a salvation issue.
In talking to the few homosexuals I have in my life, I have discovered that most are atheists or a few attend a church that caters to their deviancy.
I am under the impression, via Scripture, that homosexuality is an abomination to The Lord.
I am really not interested in any human understanding on the issue, I am only interested on what The Lord has to say about it…and how I can effectively bring The Good News to them.
Perhaps, Don Fritts is also right…maybe it just has to be an individual, one on one situation…but that is also difficult as most homosexuals I see, often travel in groups of at least two.
Thank you very much for replying.
One more thing…
I discovered many years ago, as we all have, that talking even to heterosexual males and females is entirely different…of course.
But then I think should I even attempt to go to another level for homosexuals ?
Am I then catering to their deviancy ?
Perhaps this will just prove to be out of my league and I’ll continue to treat homosexuals the way I always have…which is no special treatment…here is The Gospel, here is what The Lord says…accept it or not !
-David
In one sense all sinning is a salvation issue because all must come to Jesus for forgiveness of their sins, but all sin except for the unpardonable sin will be forgiven by those in Christ Jesus. There is no point in singling out one abominable sin practice over another in regard to salvation. After all, we know the Bible tells us that their are seven sins that God hates and homosexuality does not ever rank a mention.
Having said that, homosexual practice brings deadly consequences to society so no society should make homosexuality acceptable so that these people can freely spread disease, kill the innocent and destroy the family structure that God ordained. Christians are to give homosexuals the good news that God provided a way out to overcome sin. We are not supposed to accommodate it and it seems to me that is what the New Evangelicals are doing.
Don,
Good points Don.
I think you just said what you say best…the way it is clearly and simply.
David , take a look at http://www.firefighters.org website. This is the website for Firefighters for Christ in Orange Country California. They are a ministry that orginated out of Calvary Chapel in Costa Mesa,CA. many years ago. Click on audio catalog, there are 2 catalogs from 2 different
chapters. It will take some time to read through all they have available. All their materials are ALWAYS FREE , NO CHARGE. Also, they will NOT send you a letter every week asking for money.
They have many good CD’s on many subjects . BLESSINGS!!!!!!!!
In my experience, most homosexual men have serious “daddy issues”–either from sexual or emotional abuse, or from abandonment. They desperately need to experience the true Fathering that only God can give.
But most cannot be reached with this message. There are a few reasons for this. One is because the “Gay Pride” movement has been a very effective inoculation against the “God can heal your inner hurt” message that the Church has offered homosexuals for hundreds of years. “There’s nothing wrong with me–I don’t need to be ‘healed’!” is the indignant, self-righteous blustering of those who have been given an evil ideology that finally gives them a “positive” reason to live their lifestyle besides the horrid and wounded past they have only barely been able get under some degree of control in our modern, interlocked society.
The second reason is that the Church’s “need-based Gospel” leaves out the holiness of God and the fact that, because of the world’s nearly total embrace of the sin of homosexuality, God’s judgment is rapidly coming upon humanity. The 20th-Century ended with a Protestant Church that, by and large, was informed by an Anglo-European, Postmodern, market-oriented and consumer-driven mentality. The seeker-friendly Church is not about to drive away potential converts by warning anyone, especially the now-“Proud” “Gay” folks, that God is about to lower the boom because He’s just about had enough of their disobedience. I know I’m certainly not the first, or the only person to make this observation.
We must carefully weigh all of the character attributes and the facets of the Gospel of Christ…i.e., the compassion and the holiness of God as ultimately expressed in the propitiatory death of His Son upon the cross, as empowered and guided by the Holy Spirit. That’s the only way to reach homosexuals. Historical approaches aren’t sufficient. Radical, courageous, loving, and Spirit-led and -empowered ministry is.
Don Fritts,
Thank you for the reference to firefighters for Christ, I’ll pursue that.
Jeff,
Thank you for bringing up some great points, much to ponder on what you said.
Yes Jeff, I agree with ~David, a well set up and lucid comment.
I am no expert whatsoever, but I feel there are many who indulge in homosexuality who are addicted to orgasm and it matters little how it is obtained.
David ,
Do a google search for Exodus International , they are a ministry that works with ex- homosexuals . I know nothing about them , just passing along the info.
David?
I too am suspicious of human arguments that address such controversial issues. That’s why I recommended that particular book. It was written by two Christians who consider the Scriptures to be paramount, yet also considered aspects of the controversy that (sadly) too many Christians dismiss out of hand. This book is worth the time of anyone who would like to minister to the LGBTQ community…
Everyone?
I like the way Don commented about homosexuality and issues of salvation. Please let me clarify what I wrote: There are *many* controversies in the Church, a great many of these have split local church bodies (ministry emphasis, musical styles, etc.) and even created schisms in the Body as a whole (Law of Moses vs. freedom in Christ, importance of grace vs. works, Calvinism vs. Armenianism, rapture & prophesy, role of women, etc). Most of these controversies are not such that one is saved if you’re on one side and NOT saved if you’re on the other side: The deity of Christ is one of the *very few* salvation issues; homosexuality is not…
Contrary to the unhelpful (Christian) slogan “Homosexuals go to Hell,” only people who reject Jesus will be in Hell. If a child dies the very moment after the first sin (when they are first held “accountable”), I am very, VERY confident that that sin won’t have anything to do with acting on their sexual orientation! (It’ll probably be stealing cookies, or lying to mommy, or hitting their sibling!)…
The average homosexual is not consumed with their sexuality anymore than the average heterosexual, certain teaching and media presentations notwithstanding. (Most Christians don’t seem to realize that there is vastly more heterosexual sin and sinners than homosexual sin and sinners: *vastly more*. If you believe masturbation is sin, then we can assume pretty much the whole human race are sexual sinners!)…
For anyone who’s sexuality (hetero/homo/otherwise} DOES consume them, *they are in danger* of not hearing the Holy Spirit when God calls them to Christ – so, in that sense, yes, a homosexual’s sexuality could be a salvation issue. It’s just as with the rich and their riches getting between them and God in a salvation way. I’ve never met a homosexual (that I knew to be one) that was consumed with their sexuality. Yet, as Christians, we are encouraged to think the deviant things we see in those (few) over-the-top pride demonstrations is representative of ALL homosexuals. That is no more the case than Mardi Gras’ outlandish deviancy represents all heterosexuals!
The homosexual people I’ve met are spiritually sensitive and they are just like everyone else (just as ordinary…even boring!). So why do they seem to reject the Gospel when a Christian tries to share it? Well, at least part of the reason is that they (as a community, and many individuals I’ve met) assume that Jesus despises them every bit as much as people in the Church do. (Just as we misunderstand and demonize them, they misunderstand and demonize us!)…
Imagine how hard it is to receive the Gospel when you’ve been told all your life that you’re an “abomination” and are “going to Hell” just for being who you are? *MANY* homosexual people have taken their lives because they believed that God could not possibly love them, because THAT’S what they were told by Christians who should have been sharing the Good News with them instead of condemning them. God said LOTS of things were “abominations” that were part of the Old Testament ‘holiness code,’ things that most Christians recognize to apply only to Israel before the time of Christ. Really, should we call any person an “abomination,” regardless of what they’ve done or not done?
Helping a homosexual unbeliever embrace the Gospel, embrace Jesus, will generally require that we build a trusting relationship with them, one that will likely require a good deal of mutual vulnerability. It’s possible that yelling something to them about their lack of eternal security, or tossing a tract their way will help – God *can* use anything. But generally the most hurt people require the most intimate and loving attention, and by “loving” I mean that in the “everyday” sense of the word. We, as Christians, assume that hitting a homosexual with the truth (or “truth”) is being “loving” – “tough love.” But we, as parents, realize that such “touch love” is reserved as a “last resort” when the gentler ways of loving have failed. If a homosexual person perceives our “loving” as being “unloving,” doesn’t it seem prudent to try another method? But people won’t try if they assume that homosexuals are unreachable…
All of this will require tremendous humility and reliance on His Spirit on our part.
I was really impressed by Philip Yancy who, when asked how he could be friends with Mel White (a Christian who is homosexual, who ghost wrote for Billy Graham, Pat Robertson and other famous Evangelicals), said: “How can Mel be friends with a sinner like me?”
May I point-out something else? It is possible to be Christian and homosexual. I know more than one, and I respect their relationship with Christ; I see His Spirit at work in them, and I see good fruit in their lives. They have a peace that passes human understanding (especially when you consider what they have to deal with!) I see a genuine love for Jesus in them…in fact, I see Jesus in them! I know other Christians who are homosexuals from a bit more of a distance, and what I can see of their lives leads me to conclude that God is working mightily in their lives, and I see God in them. Moreover, I have no reason to dismiss these things I see as “counterfeit fruits” as some do simply because these people are homosexual.
If homosexuality (as we understand it today) is sinful, as is traditionally taught, then we have Christian Homosexuals in the same way we have Christian Adulterers (those who have divorced and remarried without the Biblical “excuse”), Christian Gluttons, Christian Thieves (even office-supply ones!), and we have lots of Christian Conceits, and even Christian Self-pities. Goodness, we *are* a wrenched bunch!!! Who can save us but Christ alone?
At the very, very least, we as the Body of Christ, need to repent of the appalling ways we’ve treated the LGBTQ community. We need factor into our thinking what the best, unbiased science has to say about them instead of outdated information. Homosexuals have been studied, and we need to replace our assumptions with what really is true about them, not what other misinformed people have said. I strongly think that our *stridency* comes between these people and Jesus. If that is the case, would it not be best to simply let His Spirit do any convicting that needs to be done? We can trust God to do this! Let us ask Him in humility as children who don’t have all the answers…
A pastor gave a dear friend and me a bit of very useful and freeing wisdom: “When in doubt, do the kind thing.” This advice has been very useful in helping us to build bridges between people of ALL sorts who have too often been told they are special objects of God’s anger. This bridge is one of loving-kindness, expressed in gentle ways that melt the hearts of those we love and enable them to consider Jesus as the one who can love them in spite of everything…
Don Fritts?
Sadly, Exodus International has a dark side to it. They are not “curing” people of homosexuality, in in their “fine print” they admit that homosexual orientation is no more changeable than heterosexual orientation. (Changing someones sexual orientation (or gender identity) is about like the born-blind receiving their sight – God *can* do this, but how often do we see this happen?)
Also, the Exodus people are *sure* they understand why people are homosexual and that affects their approach: sadly, their “scientific” theory has very little basis in real science and represents fringe thought in the medical community. (The Church was *sure* the sun orbited the earth too, and has since had to repent.)
In addition, “reparative therapy” has been tried over the decades by the medical (and religious) community and has been shown to be not only ineffective but counter-productive, even dangerous (people suicide over this). Reparative therapy is now considered *unethical* practice for the purposes of changing ones sexual orientation (or gender identity.)
At the very least, Exodus International is considered highly controversial. I cannot recommend them in good faith, but I recommend everyone do their own research…
Brett,
Thank you so much for your insight.
I don’t know if this is an appropriate analogy or not but it’s what I came up with…
John 8
The woman caught in adultery and the group that wanted to stone her…
8:7 So when they continued asking Him, He raised Himself up and said to them, “He who is without sin among you, let him throw a stone at her first.”
8:10 When Jesus had raised Himself up and saw no one but the woman, He said to her,“Woman, where are those accusers of yours? Has no one condemned you?”
11 She said, “No one, Lord.”
And Jesus said to her, “Neither do I condemn you; go and sin no more.”
Brett ,
Thanks got the input on Exodus International. As I told David , I know nothing about them , I’ve only heard of their ministry.
David ,
This is a spititual battle and you cannot fight spiritual battles with physical resources.
Hi Don Fritts,
My analogy from scripture is because I have been among that group that has been tempted to throw the first stone…but who am I ?
Brett has given me an understanding outlook on the situation and, perhaps, I will talk to the homosexual community with the same love I give the heterosexual community.
I am very vocal in speaking of The Lord locally, but when it has come to the homosexuals, I’ve also had the desire to head to “Tarshish” instead.
I’m still pondering this…and I know I have much to learn about all things…as usual.
David ,
Ministry to homosexuals has to be difficult under the best of circumstances. You must be called of God to minister in this area in my opinion. It is not for me to try to advise you on this subject , I’m not qualified. BLESSINGS!!!!!!
Hi Don Fritts,
Yes, I agree with you…it is difficult to minister to any group who has a foundation such as the homosexual community.
However, I talk about The Lord to just about every individual I meet.
I am also a practical joker who doesn’t have the same filters as most of society…and this sometimes has a way of getting people’s attention and sometimes they listen to what I have to say because of it…or they think I’m a nut case.
My thinking so far is that I should employ my same characteristics with the homosexual community instead of having pre-animosity towards them.
Then again Mr Fritts, perhaps this will prove to be out of my league…not sure yet.
How would we treat people who openly and flagrantly flaunted their fornication and adulteries? If the occasion arose I think we would state our position and shake the dust off our feet. So too with the homosexual who flagrantly advertises his/her sin and has pleasure in those that do the same.
On the other hand how would we treat people who were fornicators and adulterers but did not flaunt it? I think we would spend time with them if the occasion was given, to give the gospel and allow knowledge of Christ to regenerate and renew. So too with the homosexual.
Brian ,
Well said.
David ,
May you be sucessful in showing God’s love to any and all you encounter .
Thank you for your patience Everyone…this is *such* a difficult topic to converse about…
I wanted to clarify something else I wrote:
It might have seemed that I equated “sexual orientation” with “gender identity” (Most non-medical people confuse the two). “Sexual orientation” denotes who a person is romantically/sexually attracted to. “Gender identity” denotes how a person views themselves as male, female or something in between. Put crassly (and very simplistically): “Sex is what’s between your legs and gender is what’s between your ears…”
…Part of the reason the two are confused is because people with both types of variations can (but not always) outwardly express themselves in (somewhat) similar gender-variant ways (but for VERY different reasons). Another reason for confusion is that ‘LGB’ and ‘T’ have been put together – they are together for the simple reason that each is a sexual minority. (BTW the ‘Q’ in LGBTQ is simply anyone who is perceived as ‘queer’ in a sexually-related sense.)
One example of this confusion is that transsexuals are assumed to be homosexual, when they might be homosexual, heterosexual, bisexual or even asexual in orientation. (You’d be surprised at the number of people who are attracted to *neither* sex).
So, while sexual orientation and gender identity are independent aspects of humanity, they intersect in everyone…
*EVERYONE* has a sexual orientation and *EVERYONE* has a gender identity (and *EVERYONE* expresses theirs): it’s mostly noticeable when someone’s sexual orientation is unusual (as with homosexuals), or when someone’s birth-assigned sex does not align with their inner sense of who they are gender-wise (as with transsexual people). (One of the places Exodus International falls-down is that they confuse and tangle sexual orientation with gender identity – to them, a transsexual is simply a hyper-homosexual.)
NO ONE truly knows what causes either of these variations, but the consensus of (decades of) research is able to say this so far:
[Side note: the book I recommended has citations to studies and other materials to support what I’m about to list.]
* Sexual orientation and gender identity both exist along a continuum. This is most easily seen with heterosexual-bisexual-homosexual (asexual doesn’t fit cleanly into a point along a line…maybe it has its own axis? asexual-hypersexual?) AND Gender identity ranges from masculine-androgynous-feminine (and like asexuality, there are people who have no sense of gender).
* Many factors contribute to our sexual orientation (and gender identity); it seems that there is no one thing anyone can conclusively point to, but there are lots of things that are implicated: natural and medication-induced hormonal anomalies during a baby’s brain development are one highly suspicious area. (Female development is default for humans; males are modified females when you consider how a baby develops in the womb.) It seems that a number of things come together (some environmental, some possibly genetic) to swing orientation/identity one way or the other.
* A person’s sexual orientation and gender identity seems to be set permanent by very early childhood, possibly even in the womb. Which leads to what follows. A person simply doesn’t choose their sexual orientation or gender identity – it’s fixed before they are mature enough to even understand the concepts. They can only choose what to do with what they have, and because of they way things are in society, some will discover this earlier and some (perhaps much) later in life. This leads to the following…
* Studies have shown that people who are homosexual or who’s gender identity is (substantially) different from their birth-sex come from all walks of life: they come from good homes, abusive homes, where traditional gender roles are preferred and where they are not, from rich, from poor, with parents who are mentally/physically healthy and where there are problems. How and where a child nurtured does not determine whether they have issues related to their sexual orientation or gender identity. If a person does have such issues, various events in their lives can bring this out more quickly, more strongly, or can cause it to be hidden or even repressed (repression is VERY bad for one’s mental and spiritual health).
* It’s not contagious: Little kids cannot “catch” being “gay” or transgender from someone else, even someone who is emotionally close or someone who is influential (like a parent or teacher). Studies have shown that homosexual and transsexual parents raise children who have no more chance of being gay or transgendered than “straight” parents. If a little boy insists they are a girl, then it was already there, it wasn’t the influence of “the crazy uncle who cross-dresses on Saturday nights” that made this happen.
* It’s not something you get rid of. You don’t “get over” homosexuality or transsexualism: The fear of God, being born again, prayer/fasting, talk therapy, shock (yes SHOCK) therapy, medicines, whatever – they do not change a person’s sexual orientation or their gender identity. These thing have been tried for many decades with generally awful (even horrific and fatal) results. It’s not even remotely related to an addiction. These things are hardwired into people’s beings like BIOS-chips in a computer. God *can* change this in people, but it’s like the restoring the sight of the born-blind, or restoring the mind of someone who is profoundly mentally retarded.
Also: God lets these things happen in His permissive will. The Fall happened. Each of us have to live with what God has given us for a life, for a body, for a mind. But even the difficult, negative, parts of ourselves can be used for “talents” to invest in God’s Kingdom! (AND not everything this is difficult or hurtful is evil or sinful in and of itself: Paul came to consider his “thorn” to be a gift from God.) God’s grace is sufficient (and comes in *MANY* forms); He will change us…so utterly and completely, that one day we will leave all this hurt and difficulty behind. Hopefully, we will have helped some others join us Heavenward…
(Sorry, this post was *MUCH* longer than I intended (and maybe “preachy” too). {very small voice})
Brett,
With all due respect, I think you are giving a one-sided position from the view of secular psychologists that have become apologists for the gay and lesbian community. Nobody can broad-brush this for sure, because there are many factors involved, but for the most part homosexuality is a learned lifestyle choice.
The environment that children were exposed to helped them perceive that they are different. As I have said before, effeminate men are increasingly being pushed toward believing that they are gay because they are not a man’s type of man.
The same goes for woman that tend to act more masculine than the norm or did not get all the attributes that they think men will look for in a woman. Much of this is caused when men and woman lose their God given natural roles. Even in the Church, we have feminists that think their role in God’s order is the same as men. We also have churches that tend to feminize men. With the natural roles being twisted is it any wonder why their children get confused?
The fact is that if society did not program these people, it would be more likely than not that effeminate men would end up with someone in the opposite sex that would accept them as they are and satisfy them sexually, but instead they look for or are told to look for a mate within their own sex. They are told to look for someone in their own sex that acts like a member of the other sex? They are being programed to be deviant.
There is a reason why the world is becoming increasingly homosexual and it is because of broken families with lack of role models and it is indoctrination by the schools and media. I am not saying you are all wrong Brett, but I do think you are giving a view that many Christian professionals would disagree with. You seem to be apologizing for God for taking the position that homosexuality is a mark of rebellion for those that reject His natural order.
As I said in another article, I think sexual perversion in society is a barometer of demonic activity throughout society. From history and from what else happens in a society where homosexuality has become acceptable, I have no reason to think otherwise.
For me Brett, that just about does it.
I am going to pretty much treat the homosexuals like Jonah treated Ninevah…I’ll tell them, here’s the deal, like it or not, your choice, that’s it !
I realize that homosexuality is a sin like a perpetual murderer, drunkard, etc., however, I will NOT give that community any special treatment or understanding.
Or maybe, I should just keep my mouth shut.
Don ,
You are RIGHT ON about demonic activity throughout society. Just look at the movies with the biggest $$ box office receipts that people will stand in line to see. Look at the garbage with demonic overtones on network television.
Don,
First, THANK YOU for allowing us to have have a civil conversation about this. It’s really *rare* for that to be possible amidst the heated rhetoric on both sides…
While I agree with you that lifestyles are learned. That’s not what I’m talking about: A homosexual chooses what they will do with their homosexuality. Some homosexuals choose to be lascivious and promiscuous (these are the most visible ones), others (the majority you don’t see) just want to be left alone. It’s just as it is with heterosexuals.
With (a lot of) due respect Don, when you write about gender role variations in families as causing homosexuality, you sound reasonable, like you are expressing “common sense,” but you are reinforcing a stereotype that simply does not hold up to scrutiny:
There are plenty of homosexual people who didn’t grow up with “effeminate” or “butch” influence, and there are plenty of homosexual people who don’t fit “gay/lesbian” stereotypes. Similarly, there are plenty of children who are under “effeminate” or “butch” influences that don’t become homosexual.
I think that people (groups) who have not studied an issue have less basis for their assumptions than people (groups) that have studied.
Nevertheless, homosexuals are responsible for their behavior, just as heterosexuals are.
So, yes, a child nurtured in a home with lasciviousness and promiscuity could easily learn to be that way themselves. That does not make a child homo or heterosexual, it influences what they will do once they discover their orientation.
Unless a secular source clearly has an activist agenda, I don’t feel that I have the right to dismiss their work as unworthy of consideration (though even activists can discover and communicate truth too). While I am skeptical of human sources, I also recognize that God has worked through human agency on an enormous scale, and science (as a *thinking tool*) expresses an important part of how we bear God’s likeness. (When people make science their God, then I have a serious problem!) So, just as I am willing to trust that the medical community can understand how we work well enough to immunize us, or perform surgery, or help mitigate depression and other issues, I see no problem in considering what might be discovered as they study sexual orientation (and gender identity). I’m not apologizing for God, or for them. God gave me a brain, and I think He wants me to use it, both for when I (prayerfully) study Scripture and when I (prayerfully) study these issues from other sources. Should we not be like the Bereans with other things as well as the Scriptures?
I’m Sorry Don, I do not interpret the Scriptures as meaning “homosexuality is a mark of rebellion.” I think/believe that in the context (you’re referring to Romans 1?), what God’s Spirit is saying is that following after *false gods* was/is the problem. The Romans description bears the marks of the pagan worship that was so common at the time (and before). It happens that homosexual acts were an integral part of that worship. Since heterosexuals comprise the vast majority of the population, it’s safe to assume that heterosexuals were doing most of these acts (as they were commonplace).
Closely related, If you consider people’s “natural constitution” (the way God made them {or allowed them to be made, if you prefer}), then homosexual acts, ARE UNNATURAL for heterosexual people; but homosexual people find heterosexual acts to be unnatural for them.
This interpretation is not simply my own, other Christians see it this way too, and it might be something we will have to disagree about.
As I’ve said, this is a difficult thing…
Abba, please help us here. None of us have all the answers, and we don’t fully understand why we have all the questions either. We want what You want, but You’ve seen that throughout Your Church, there are different ways we understand different things. (Father, I know I could be wrong about some things here…but You know my heart and I’ve given these things great prayerful consideration…if I’m wrong, You know I want to be corrected: I look to Your Spirit to confirm whatever I must (re)consider; I simply have to trust You for that!) Please help us to act as Your Spirit directs…
In re: to the homosexuals,
I do not wish any harm to them…and I am not going to “throw stones” at them.
I am a sinner also…but the line has to be drawn somewhere…but it won’t be with our “tolerant” based society.
It does upset me that this once great nation has accepted this sickness and even given groups as this special privileges and laws.
This argument makes me think, that we as a society might as well take the same argument to a serial murderer…who should be shown more understanding and not be prosecuted because of his innate (or environmental) influences that “made him” the way he/she is.
Same with pedophiles…shouldn’t we show them the same understanding ?
OH, you say…that’s just going too far ?
Why stop at homosexuality ?
There was a time when homosexuals were in the closet and looked at as a deviancy in society who needed mental help…but now, they are a proud bunch…thank you main stream media.
Just my opinion, but I think a society that accepts behavior as this is subject to a severe wrath from The Living God…see Sodom and Gomorrah.
Now, if these homosexuals were calling upon The Lord for help with their endeavor, that would be a different story…but the homosexual community, instead, says “Leave us alone”, we just want our rights.
And every single homosexual I’ve ever met or read about is an atheist…I know, not all homosexuals are atheists, but from my information, the majority are.
That said, I will continue to talk about The Lord to every person I meet, including homosexuals.
Brett,
First let me say I am not arguing with Brett to bash homosexuals. I just think he is giving a view that he is being fed by the indoctrinators that want homosexuals and homosexual activity to be accepted as being normal in human society. I think it is abnormal, it spreads disease and is deadly because it kills people.
Let me say clearly that the only way any sinful (and yes homosexual activity is sinful) activity can be dealt with is through God’s provision for sin and that is through a relationship with Jesus Christ. We cannot stop people that are bound in sin from sinning, only the Holy Spirit can do that.
Brett, Most stereotypes become stereotypes because there is a lot of truth in the type casting. I know from a lifetime of experience that I can spot a male homosexual with over 90 percent accuracy. I very seldom get it wrong because there is a general spirit about male homosexuals that can be discerned whether you like to believe that or not. I don’t have such accuracy with women but maybe certain discerning women do.
You say that unless a secular source has an activist agenda we have no right to dismiss their work. I have news, this whole world has an activist agenda to discredit Christian biblical beliefs and it certainly did not stop with the biblical view of homosexuality. So called science in many fields seems to replace truth with man-made theories. For example, evolution replaces creation and demonically inspired psychotherapy replaces Bible based Christian counseling. I could go on, but you should get the point. World science is not trying to find out God’s truth they are trying to find man-made replacements for God’s truth.
What is being sold in our schools about homosexuality from the scientific established experts in psychology is an agenda to promote homosexuality as being normal. They do have an agenda. Fifty years ago homosexuality would have been a crime today it is being flaunted. Did homosexuality change or was their an agenda to make homosexuality acceptable? Did this movement to make humans act like beasts do good for our civilization? Millions are dead because of aids. The average homosexual will live a decade or two shorter lifespan than a heterosexual. God did not design our bodies to put sex organs up our body elimination track. Antibiotic resistant staff infections MRSA was 10 times more prevalent in homosexuals for good reason but in ten years the homosexuals have greatly helped spread MSRA to the whole general population. Anyone getting surgery now is almost bound to get MSRA. Those are the scientific health facts even apart from moral issues.
So what kind of society promotes death so that we can call those that are spreading death a normal alternative life style? God knew what he was doing when he only created two sexes. Now we have to have four or more sexes and promote it in our schools and on media so more death can come? I have news, Aids and MSRA will not be the last of diseases that Homosexuals spread. There will come diseases within this decade for which there will be no cure at all for and it will be mainly spread by homosexuals to the general population. So there are real deadly consequences for a society that condones what God said is an abomination.
Believe me there is enough blame to go around among the heterosexuals as well, in their deviant sexual lifestyles. How many of them are living together out of wedlock? More than half of younger people are. People think you are nuts if you have not had multiple sexual experiences in your teens. Our society has been indoctrinated to self-destruct and its not just the homosexuals. Almost all Western nations are not having near enough children to sustain their nation.
Brett, you do not think that homosexuality is a mark of rebellion against God. Yet God says it is in the context of Roman’s 1. God gave them up to practice what is abominable in His sight because they did not want to retain knowledge of Him. That is rebellion! What did he give them up to do? All the things that He condemned in the Old Testament with the prime example in Romans 1 being homosexuality. I am sure some teachers can put a twist on any scripture to accommodate anyone. They are not being honest to the whole counsel of God. I think the context of Romans 1 is clear enough without putting a spin on it to apply it to pagan worship in the past, to make us think that it is not so bad because our homosexuals do not worship pagan gods in temples. Most homosexuals today practice some kind of New Age religion if they believe anything at all. That is because they are in rebellion against God.
They think they know better than God. There is nothing new under the sun. God was clear in other passages that homosexually was an abomination to Him and that is because like all sin it is harmful to others and brings death.
I have no problems with Christians trying to help homosexuals and helping them find salvation so that they can deal with their sin problems but please don’t ask Christians to accommodate flagrant sin in the Church. You can say we do that with other sin and you would be correct, but that still does not make it right. Should we accept unrepentant murderers and thieves in the Church? If I remember correctly two people died in the early Church just because they lied to Paul as if the Holy Spirit does not see all. Obviously, we have to accept sinners in our churches since that is where some of them will find salvation but we are told to put flagrant sinners that confess to be believers outside the Church, and not even to associate with them, so that they will repent. Those in the the body of Christ do sin, but acceptance of sin in the Body of Christ is an oxymoron.
Anyway Brett, I think you were giving a rationalization that you believe and that I think is a view promoted by the world. That is why I offered my own view. I don’t care to say much more about it; I said enough. If others want to chime in that is up to them.
CHIME !!!
Don,
As you just pointed out about heterosexuals, it’s much the same thing.
It has become “acceptable” in our society for unwed couples to have premarital sex…and virgins are mocked…see latest spotlight on Tim Tebow !
I did it…and I have long since repented of that deviancy…and will remain celibate until married…or celibate until death, whichever comes first. People laugh at me today because I say, “I wish I would have obeyed The Lord and not had premarital sex”.
I quit watching movies, TV, and secular music because of the promotion and “acceptance” of this deviant behavior also. I am not saying all Christians have to take this stand against “modern entertainment”, but it is the best way for me.
With respect to Brett’s views on this subject. I came across this argument first time around 30 years ago. It was made by an Anglican priest who was in favour of homosexual marriage. He used a form of linguistic gymnastics to turn the normal understanding of what Paul was saying on its head by interpreting his meaning to be that homosexual practice is wrong for heterosexuals, thereby inferring it to be OK for homosexuals.
I am certain that homosexuality is the result of demonic possession. Where I have encountered this demonic activity there has sometimes been others present. A spirit of divination was one I recall. This possession can happen at any stage in life. (“I will visit the spirits of the fathers on the third and fourth generations of those that hate me”). They gain access to children through the sin of their parents.
They are seducing spirits that gain access at later stages in life by making themselves attractive through idolatry, like that which we are bombarded with by the media. It isn’t for no reason that it is so prevalent amongst pop idols and TV personalities. They seduce their way into churches by appealing for sympathy (“I can’t help being the way God made me”).
We should receive these people with God’s love. But not the sin or the spirit. That must be repented of and cast out.
I’ve been following this dialogue with interest. I’m a committed Christian who wants to do what Jesus would do. I’ve spent most of my adult life (I’m over 50) gradually trying to find out what God really thinks about this subject and how Christians are supposed to handle it. It’s been a long and challenging road (ongoing), yet I have seen God prompting and leading me in so many interventions and with so many people He has put in my life. Yes, He’s even given me Christian friends whom I later found were homosexual; more big challenges!
May I just give my two bob’s worth as a Christian who has now spent quite a lot of time studying this and living with this (including the Biblical references, the science, and personal experience)? I think (and I believe His Spirit affirms within me) that Brett Blatchley’s opinions are FAR closer than the other opinions expressed here to what God thinks about this. (None of us can presume to know everything God thinks about it!) Brett is in a position where God can use him to bring homosexual people to Jesus: what happens with any sin in their lives from that point on is between them and Jesus, and no different from any of the rest of us. One of the best ways to bring people – homosexual or otherwise – to Jesus is to become their friends: to love them with the same sort of love that Jesus has for them. I struggle to see that sort of love in the comments above (apart from Brett’s), because they are so full of misinformation and a lack of any attempt to really understand the issues.
Do any of you have reasonably close homosexual friends, whom you love despite the fact that – like you, they are sinners? Have you talked to them about these things you are commenting on? If not, why not? I guarantee that once you have, you will see things more from Jesus’ perspective – because that is where He is: beside them, trying to be their friend, loving and understanding them, talking to them.
I now cringe in shame at the things I said about this subject before God showed me the things He has shown and taught me. We don’t have to be scared of any conspiracy. Everything and everyone will ultimately fall at His feet, either in worship, the sort of worship that makes them want to stay with Him forever; or terror, the sort of terror that makes them want to stay away from Him forever. We’re here to love and encourage as many of our fellow humans as possible to recognize who He really is, so that they choose to fall in worship on that Day.
Thank you, Don, for providing a forum to discuss this.
Janet,
You’re entitled to your opinion, but there is no reason to believe you’re the final Christian authority on the subject. What God thinks about this is given to us in the Bible. To say everyone but Brett’s comments are so full of misinformation and lack any attempt to really understand the issues is simply false.
You say God showed you things but you did not mention how He did that. How about some support from the Bible for accepting practicing homosexuals in the Body of Christ?
Nobody is saying that homosexuals can’t be saved or that we should not give them the gospel that will free them from their bondage. There is quite a difference between showing unbelievers Christian love and allowing sin to leaven the whole loaf.
By the way, this topic is not being discussed here as a witnesses to homosexuals, this is a discussion between Christians because a Christian asked about the subject. It is not even likely that any homosexual will read these comments on my monthly perspectives, and if one should, they should not assume that homosexuality will be acceptable in the Body of Christ. If they do not come to Christ as the sinner they are, (that we all are) that have need of a Savior to deliver them from their sins they cannot even be saved. However, once they do repent of their ways and trust in Jesus for new life they can assume that God will free them from their sins.
Janet von Berky ,
You are correct that none of us can know everything God thinks on any subject. What we know for sure is what God has told us in His Word. He has clearly stated that being homosexual is unnatural and an abomination to Him. I believe He takes it personally. Hatred of anyone for any reason is contrary to what Jesus taught, He said love your enemies and pray for them. It is impossible for me to understand how a male can be attracted to another male, I just cannot comprehend that. I like women. It seems to me our various opinions are irrevelant when God has spoken so clearly on this subject. I have absolutely no expertise on this , however I believe we need to leave all judgment to God , He will deal with it.
Sadly there is indoctrination on both sides of this issue. I firmly believe that our Lord is displeased with a lot of the way both sides are handling this. Both sides are behaving in a reactionary way: that has to stop and, as Christians, God gives us the power to rise about this…
Stereotypes have a kernel of truth to them, but *only* a kernel. The fact that the word “stereotype” has an unpleasant connotation, shows that people recognize that they tend to do harm. How many stereotypes have harmed relations with the races? with the sexes? with nations? Some say they are experienced in spotting homosexual people, claiming very high “success rate.” Are they spotting them because they see them engaging in sinful behavior? Or are they spotting them because they may be a bit “different” in a way they don’t care to see? Sin is sin, but assuming someone is grievously sinful (as Christians tend to do with homosexuals) simply because they are “different” in non-harmful ways is *way beneath* the behavior to which Christ calls us…
If we are talking about MRSA and the results of studies, then it would be useful to *point to* where those serious things can be verified (I have done this above for my research assertions). Just as homosexual activists have said awful, slanderous things about us, Christian leaders and lay people *routinely* slander homosexuals. Bearing false witness, even accidentally, is highly displeasing to God no matter who does it…
If we are talking about death, that homosexuality heads to death, then it would be interesting to see how many gay people die of AIDS and how many take their own lives because Christians and non-believers treat them venomously. I have heard of Christian counselors that have told homosexual clients that they would be better-off killing themselves than living with their homosexuality! I know of parents of homosexual children who have done the same! (Anyone who would like to verify that can contact me.)
AND since we’re talking about “death,” how about the people who are killed by people who (Christian or not) get their justification for murder from Christianity, from the rhetoric taught in the pulpit, from incendiary information spread by para-Church organizations, and things spread from “conservative” media that is designed to inflame. But such deaths are few compared to the people who are beat and harassed and have been denied jobs or places to live: There is a reason homosexuals have stayed in the closet – it’s been too *dangerous* for them to come out! The inquisition targeted homosexuals for brutal torture and murder (in Christ’s name); Hitler targeted homosexuals, justifying it in Christian terms in Christ’s name. When homosexuals hear the same kind of rhetoric coming from Christian leaders and their followers, they are justified in being afraid. (This AND the fact that such people are often ostracized in the Church is why you have very, very few homosexual Christians who are willing to admit their same sex attraction – if we really think that this is a sin, then our attitudes are making it nearly impossible for homosexual Christians to get any help they may need in dealing with their sexual orientation. Just telling them “it’s sin: stop it!” doesn’t cut it, or what *usually* happens is they’re excommunicated from fellowship. Could Jesus be pumping His fist saying “Yeah! That’s telling them!”? I doubt it; I think He weeps.)
“Special rights” have been mentioned: The reason we protect such human attributes as “race, color, gender, religion, national origin, age, disability” from discrimination (and worse) is because there are differences here that are strong enough the people have *habitually* abused each other over them. Anti-discrimination policies should not have to exist! Yet each of these attributes (which are also “groups” with “stereotypes”) are protected because the overall protection, that is supposed to apply to everyone, is routinely violated! There would be no need for “special protection” of certain groups if the majority population even managed human decency. People have used Christ’s name and the Bible to justify all manner of hurt up to and including murder against people with differences in each category I’ve listed above. There is every good reason for “sexual orientation” and “gender identity” to be in that that list (as “sexual orientation” actually is). The reason we have a pluralistic society which promotes freedom is because thoughtful people have recognized that when the majority starts hurting those who are weak or are minorities, then no one else is really safe either. We are all a minority in our own way, and for each of us there is someone who thinks we are evil because of what we think, say, do or don’t do. By “burning” homosexuals (which happened once, that’s where the word “faggot” came from), we light the fuse that eventually burns others, even ourselves.
Is “marriage” a “special right?” Since when is marriage a “special right?” If we heterosexuals feel we own the term “marriage” then let homosexuals come together in a committed, monogamous contract of mutual love and support (with the same responsibilities and rights afforded to “heterosexual unions”): call them “civil unions.” True, homosexuals can’t produce children, but there are enough children cast-off from sinful heterosexuals, who need loving homes, to be adopted by both heterosexual couples (who can’t have children) and homosexual couples (who can’t have children either). Marriage provides a service to society *far* beyond that of creating children: stable, committed, loving, monogamous human relationships curb our destructive tendencies, they teach us selflessness, responsibility, and the art living with our fellow humans in harmony, they hold society together. The State has an interest in promoting that. It is not generally known, but we already have same sex marriages: people who have changed their sex and still remain married to their spouses are, in fact, in a same sex marriage. NOW, I could have brought-up the spiritual aspect of this and made arguments from Scriptures, but I’m not going to bother. I *needed* such arguments before I could come to my present position, but I can see that expressing them here won’t help. But beyond the spiritual, if I had found (after researching this) the claims that homosexual couples ruin children or people around them or society (as is commonly claimed by we Christians), then I couldn’t support the secular argument either.
I’m going where I believe God’s Spirit leads me, and He made it clear that I need to consider the data honestly. We heterosexuals (especially Christian ones) have caused a *VASTLY* greater harm to our society though our sexual sin of divorce (which Jesus strongly condemned), than homosexuals living in committed monogamous relations themselves have (something Jesus *NEVER* addressed). I’m firmly convinced that we Christians are using homosexuals as scapegoats for many of our own failings…
I used to accept the “party line” that homosexuals are society’s problem until God encouraged me to look at the issue with my own mind with His Spirit within guiding me. I am NOT going to use homosexuals as a scapegoat for what’s happening in the world. I’m confident enough that what I’ve learned is from God that I’m willing to take this unpopular stand publicly. I have opened my spirit to correction throughout the process of change in my position, and the changes God has been making have led me here so far.
Abba, our Heavenly Father, Jesus and Spirit, we need clear direction here. The traditional teaching, or *at least* the way we Christians apply it, to me has the taint of death upon it. It is not the good “dying to oneself” that I refer (and You know I have experienced that!), rather the it’s the stink of the evil one. Jesus could have spoken about this issue but He didn’t. He did condemn many things however, and his harshest words were against those who were self-righteousness, spiritually proud, haughty, selfish. He also condemned and divorce and adultery, though far more gently. Your revelation to humans has been progressive since the Fall: Adam and Eve (so far as we know) didn’t know what Christ would come to do for us. Certainly You have dealt with humanity as a parent with a child who grows from infancy to adulthood. The infant requires some rules and teaching that are not healthy or appropriate for older children, young (and finally) mature adults. It’s possible Your Church may never make it to the “mature adult” stage this side of eternity, only You know. Jesus was constantly violating the “rules” You gave Israel at the risk of His life, but they couldn’t see that He was actually giving them new revelation that went to the core of Your purpose with us. You do this! You do this in each generation! And if judging sin was the point, we would already be in Hell. But love is the point and that’s why Jesus came.
Father, I will obey the higher teaching, Jesus’ teaching of loving my neighbor as myself, because I believe and Your Word and Spirit confirms to me is what You want, that is the best way that I can love You. If I am wrong, then I am wrong. I choose to err on the side of love rather than the side of judgement. To me, that is as choosing the New Covenant over the the old one. You know my heart and You know that I don’t come to this from human arguments or “indoctrination:” And is has always been easier for me to follow the path of judgement than that of love, even self-judgement and self-condemnation!
Please give me wisdom to have the correct convictions, and the strength to stand by them in the storm. I am Your sheep and I hear Your voice, and I depend on You to keep me in the fold because I am a sinful human that is prone to wandering. I am also Your adopted child who is being remade into the image of Christ and who is doing the good works You’ve prepared for me since the foundation of the world. Please change all our hearts and minds here, and I do not presume to know exactly what that means; I only ask for it.
We praise You that these things will be resolved one day and the very question will be sent far away into the depths of eternity future just as sin itself will be! We thank You that You cared enough to send Jesus and we ask You to make us the best representatives of Him that is possible: please glorify Yourself in us!
Brett ,
It is WRONG for Christians to use any other group as scapegoats for our own failings. We ALL have sin in our lives and it is OUR individual responsibility to deal with it honestly. I disagree with you that Jesus never addressed this topic. When He commented on divorce He said God made them male and female. If I understand Romans 1 correctly it says they have no excuse before God. I do not believe what God said is an abomination to Him is a healthy lifestyle for anyone. I have nor do I want any vote on the eternal destiny of anyone. My point is when God is clear on a subject for Christians there is NOTHING to add or subtract. Christians do indeed need to deal with their own sin first before calling others ugly names. AS Don has said there is a lot of demonic activity involved. BLESSINGS!!!!!!!
BLESSINGS to you too Don Fritts: Thank You 🙂
Oh how I wish this all was easy…
Sometimes I’ve wondered if God allows all these differences we have, things we have to work through, as tools to help us become more Christlike? Very much the “as iron sharpens iron” thing, I suspect.
If our lives are “training for what’s ahead, then it makes me wonder what we’re building up to! But our God will get us through this; He promised to complete the work He’s started in us, and He wants us to trust Him…
I’m not sure that it would be edifying for me to comment further on this topic (at least here and now). Unless anyone needs me to respond publicly to something I’ve written (with Don’s permission, of course), then I’ll stop posting. I’ll be happy to continue the discussion with anyone who wishes to contact me privately, as I first offered to David.
Abba, please, by Your Spirit speak to each of us about what we’ve discussed here: please bring conviction and confirmation wherever it is needed (You *know* that I ask especially for myself!). As Janet said, none of us have all the answers, but You do and You reveal them in Your time and in Your ways. Soften our hearts (can they ever be too soft?) and love all others through us as we know this is Your desire, as You all draw people to Yourself for salvation and then begin the process of healing. Father, Jesus and Spirit: You are our Love, and You have saved us and call us Beloved! We are *so grateful*!!!
Brett,
There are not two sides there is just truth and error.
I said I can spot a male homosexual with 90 percent accuracy and that just happens to be the truth. I do not know why that is, there is just a spirit about them. Perhaps they just stereotype themselves. I said nothing about spotting sinful activity in anyone. Everyone is sinful that is why all need Christ. The problem with many homosexuals it that they will not admit that what they are doing is sinful and thus they see no need for a Savior. Of course I am broad-brushing because we are addressing homosexuals as the separate demographic that they wish to be identified as. Of course each individual is different but there are general truths that have stereotypical behavior from where we get stereotypes. Even the homosexuality community largely identifies with the stereotypes or they would be marching on TV producers, but instead they celebrate homosexuals stereotypes on TV and in Movies and they often act out such stereotypes in public. Especially if they are flaunting their homosexuality in public, which is often the case.
I can point to studies how homosexuals spread disease, but I should not have to waste my time doing that with reasonably informed people. Our own Department of Health points these problems out. They do not tell homosexuals to use condoms because there is no threat to spread disease. I think the spread of AIDS among homosexuals is well documented. I also think VD disease is also well documented. As for MSRA, I wrote a post on that 4 years ago. Read the quoted article in the link below because what we warned about has now happened. My wife is a Physician so I do keep up with medical issues. There is no question that homosexuals with AID are helping to spread deadly diseases into the general society with their weakened immunize systems.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/the-msra-homosexual-connection-whitewash-begins.html
Even so, all this has nothing to do with the witnessing or our acceptance of homosexual sin in the Body of Christ issue. The issues that Christians should be concerned with is giving such people the gospel of salvation and not accepting the flaunting of any sinful lifestyles within the Body of Christ.
Perhaps you are also slandering many Christian leaders by accusing them of slandering homosexuals, ever think of that possibility? In fact, what you claim that Christian counselors have told homosexuals to do is the worst kind of hearsay slander. There are two sides of every story. That is not the typical behavior of Christian counselors, so are you claiming this is happening from Christians counselors or is it happening from pseudo Christian counselors, or are people just blowing this out of proportion to justify homosexuality in the Church?
People in guilt and sin kill themselves all the time, suicide is not limited to homosexuals and the number of deaths certainly does not compare to the number being killed by disease. How do I even know that these homosexuals took their life because of homosexuality? There are a thousand other reasons why people kill themselves. You’re bringing up things that really have nothing to do with giving the gospel to homosexuals or accepting that practice in the Body of Christ. ~David is correct, preach the gospel to all and forget about their particular sins because it is not relevant, they need Jesus. The only thing that is relevant is that they learn salvation knowledge of Jesus. After that they can deal with the flesh. Nobody can be freed from sin while living in the flesh.
What you think conservatives do to harm Homosexuals is not relevant to the argument and now you are just bringing in other things into the argument for effect. What hateful people do on the Left or the Right of the political spectrum is not the issue here. The truth is that unregenerate man is evil and commits all sorts of evils. We know that and just pointing out that people are generally evil is besides the point.
Each individual is responsible to overcome in their own lives through putting on the mind of Jesus. There is nothing in the Bible saying that people have to seek out help from professionals. Any Christian can choose to put on the mind of Christ and put sin out of their lives. Of course some have a harder time doing that but that does not mean that sin is acceptable in the Body of Christ. When obvious sin is flaunted in the Church Christians are instructed to remove such a person so that person will take responsibility of their life and repent. Homosexuals are no more exempt from this instruction than adulterers, drunks, thieves or anyone living obviously sinful lifestyles.
The rest of what you said is just more rationalization supporting a liberal homosexual view and has nothing to do with ~David’s question about witnessing to Homosexuals with the gospel of salvation. You can write a book if you want on you own rationalizations for why they should be treated as a special class of sinner, but the Bible is clear that homosexuality is sinful and is not to be practiced in the Body of Christ. The fact that other sins should not be in the Body of Christ is irrelevant to the argument.
Finally, My pastor once taught a sermon about what you never say in public prayer. If I recall correctly one point was that you never use public prayer to teach or preach your own views to the audience. I agree.
The Good News…
I learn from The Bible daily and am always reading the news to see if I can find prophetic implications and like many here, on Don’s blog, am concerned with the ungodly society we live in…here in the U.S…and the world as a whole.
I know it’s not correct to overindulge in prophecy and that’s not my point here…the point is, lately, I’ve felt especially joyful in talking about The Lord and a cool thing happened while I was out in town today.
I spoke about The Lord to every person I met today, mostly women and mostly in passing, and every single one of them, even in a county building, gave me positive feedback when I talked about The Lord.
It has me thinking that many more can be reached with The Gospel and I wonder if there is something within all of us on earth, believer or not, can feel in our soul that big things are about to happen.
Oh Don –
Yes, of course!! – I thought I made it clear I was only offering an opinion, and thank you for allowing me to do this.
My understanding is that sometimes even sincere and well-educated Christians do make mistakes with their opinions, and sometimes even about the correct interpretation of what the Bible says. From time to time during history, devout believers have firmly believed the Bible taught something that we later came to see was an incorrect (even very harmful), misuse of God’s word. I’m sure you know more examples of this than I do. The Bible IS inerrant, but we aren’t…and we have to struggle with hearing what God is saying to us, even when we can’t speak the original languages and aren’t living in the same culture or time as the people to whom it was originally written – and even when we have preconceived ideas (due to our language and culture) about what it might be saying.
To give just a tiny and non-controversial example of this, when translating “The Lord is my Shepherd” for a certain Indonesian village region, translators could find no equivalent in the local language. The villagers knew nothing of sheep OR shepherding, let alone in the personal, intensive farming methods of the Middle Eastern shepherds. It was a meaningless concept to them. So the translation chosen was “The Lord is my duck-shepherd” (using the local word for a person who looked after the “herds” of ducks). The translators wanted the local people to have approximately the same understanding of the phrase as the original readers. But this was only possible because there was a rough cultural parallel (different animal, loosely similar idea). It wasn’t a perfect translation, but it was the best they could do – with God’s Spirit guiding their intentions.
I have used this example to try to illustrate that although God’s word is perfect, we do not necessarily always perceive it perfectly, or exactly as it was intended. We are humans. Sometimes the differences are minor (as in my example), and sometimes they aren’t. But we always have God’s Spirit AND the rest of Scripture to help us understand. And I think it’s part of God’s love for us that He would never simply give us a set of rules – He wants us to live by the Spirit, not by the Law. He cherishes our relationship with Him; He wants us to seek His will every step of the way, and not presume we have it all worked out.
And so Peter thought he knew once and for all time what God wanted him to do – to separate himself from anything and anyone unclean. He knew it so well that when God spoke to him in a dream (or vision) (Acts 10:9-23) the suggestion of Peter touching unclean food was anathema to him. He simply couldn’t do it. But God kept insisting, and finally Peter understood what he was being asked to do. And understood that even though God’s Law was written and unchanging, it was Peter’s relationship with his Lord which helped him to understand when and how to apply that Law. It was now time to mix with the Gentiles, and take the Gospel to them.
Please don’t think I am insisting that you extrapolate this story to our current situation with homosexual people, or even homosexual Christians. I’m not. I’m simply using it as a clear example that even when we think something is black and white, sometimes – in special circumstances and in very definite ways – God will say “Hey – Janet (or Don/David/Brett) – listen to me! I have something I need to make clear”. Sometimes He does this by showing us something new in His word that we have never, ever seen before – or never properly understood. Sometimes He does it through another person, sometimes directly by speaking to us with His Spirit. But He does do this.
Don, when I made my comments about being friends with homosexual people, I wasn’t talking about them being part of the Body of Christ (though of course my deepest desire would be that everyone would come to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior). I was simply saying that if you had close homosexual friends, it would really help you – and David – get more of Jesus’ perspective on this, simply because if you stand in the same place as someone else, you are much more likely to see what they are seeing. So if you stand with Jesus, alongside the homosexual person, you are going to see a different view – and a view more like the one Jesus is seeing (this is only logical). Jesus was never afraid to spend time with and be friends with people that everyone else thought were unsuitable; in fact, that was the company He preferred.
And I completely agree with you: Jesus never wants us to encourage anyone to keep on sinning. Again and again in the Gospels, people who met Jesus were immediately inspired (joyfully!)to change their sinful lives (take Zacchaeus as an example). If we are like Jesus, we should have a similar effect on people (as well as enabling them to see Jesus Himself) (but too often, we make them want to run in the opposite direction ?)
Just a little side-note: re the spread of diseases like STDs (previously known as VDs) and the MRSA you mentioned: yes, this occurs with sexual activity in the homosexual community. However, the spread of diseases like this also occurs with sexual activity in the heterosexual community. The problem of the spread of diseases is not so much a function of sexual orientation as a function of immoral sexual behavior itself. And I certainly agree with you that God does not ever want us to participate in immoral sexual behavior of any sort. (Quite apart from the physical consequences, the emotional and spiritual consequences are very harmful and definitely far from God’s best for the people He loves).
But a homosexually oriented person, who was celibate until he or she came into a lifelong monogamous relationship (the equivalent of faithful marriage) [Note: many such people do exist! Heterosexuals hardly have the prerogative on celibacy and faithfulness], would be no more likely to spread disease than a heterosexually oriented person of the same practice.
Therefore, the real problem here is sexual immorality (not obeying God’s intentions for our sexual relationships), not sexual orientation. The same problems can and do occur with heterosexual immorality. (And more, because there are a LOT more heterosexuals and as in the homosexual community, not many of them do follow God’s intentions for their sexual relationships).
David, I was tremendously encouraged by your good news of opportunities throughout your day to share the Lord with those you met! Yes, there IS something happening: His Kingdom IS coming! We pray the Lord’s prayer – “Your Kingdome come, Your will be done” and so it WILL come, and it WILL be done! I’m praying God will grant you more opportunities, and even the opportunity to be a friend to homosexual people – and to share the love of Your Savior with them in an irresistible way! Amen!
Thank you all for sharing about this. Brett, I share your prayers that it will help us all to grow and serve Him better!
Don, I am more than reasonably well informed.
We will simply have to disagree on these points.
Janet,
Nobody is denying the truth that Christians should treat homosexuals like any other person in need of Christ or that those practicing sin in the Church and that want help should receive it. Along with some correct thinking, there is also some falsehood in your statement
I had homosexual friends and their sexual preference was not even an issue for me. I judge humans on their own merits. I never met a perfect person. I take the view that a unregenerate sinner cannot help being caught up in some form of sinful lifestyle.
Sure there have been misinterpreted and misapplied scriptures and too often we expect sinners to clean up their act even before they come to Christ or we expect baby Christian to live in the Spirit rather than the flesh. Nevertheless the scripture is clear that homosexuality is not to be an acceptable practice in the Church. Those scriptures cannot be redefined, many of the sins of those living in the flesh were clearly made evident in the New Testament. The sins of the flesh are to be overcome by the Christian. We are not supposed to accommodate them.
When just talking from a health issues standpoint in society, homosexuality also should not be encouraged by government and indoctrinated into our children as an acceptable life syle. I am not saying we should have bedroom police and make what people do in private illegal, but there are norms in decent society that make it a decent society and the standard comes through moral and natural law.
Up until recently drug pushers were not acceptable in society so why should we accept sex pushers? Sure, sex deviancy goes way beyond just singling out homosexuals. The heterosexual community has also gone nuts. Everyone now rejects what God said about sex. Even Bestiality is now becoming a hot issue in Scandinavia because sin never says enough. There always has to be something more deviant because rebellion against God’s order is the real thrill for all demonically inspired activity.
You suggested that there is no difference between STD in the homosexual and heterosexuality community but you are wrong. Sex organs were not designed to be put in organs that were designed for waste elimination. If you read the link that I provided to Brett, you would read that in 2008 MSRA was 13 times more prevalent in the Homosexual community and the author said they would help spread it to the general population and now just four years later MSRA is everywhere. So there are consequences in society when it tolerates and promotes practices that are going to spread disease and death.
It is also a fact that the vast majority of homosexuals have many partners in a lifetime. I forget the number I read but it was huge, and this also spreads STD. So apart from the moral aspect, societies that promote homosexuality are going to bring death on many and also bring death to innocent people. That is why I believe God judges it so harshly (for the sake of the innocent). If God’s allows this to go on AIDS and MSRA will be the least of the world problems. New super germs are already on their way for which there is no cure, and they will be rapidly spread by the Homosexuality community just like AIDS and MSRA did. Frankly, if this threat was occurring before the age of antibiotics all with these deadly diseases would be gathered up and put in asylums to protect the general population. I have news, antibiotics will not work against what is beginning to spread all over the world. The sickly green horse of Revelation is getting ready to ride.
Brett and Janet, you seem to be arguing for acceptance of homosexuality as a legitimate form. Would you include bisexuality, bestiality, paedophilia? Here in Europe there are groups campaigning for acceptance of these sexualities as being normal colours of a sexual rainbow.
Christ came to save and set people free from sin and it’s consequences. You agree we should try to lead all people to salvation, but would you deny them freedom from demonic possession by telling them homosexuality or any of those other sexual perversions is natural? If you tell a sinner the sin the demon compels them to commit is OK with God, what hope do they have of being delivered from it’s oppression?
It is true that both church and society have wrongly persecuted these people. But the demons that possess them also persecute and oppress them.
Do you really think that God would condemn homosexuality if it was natural and if the person couldn’t turn from it? And please don’t use the “lost in translation” argument. God condemns homosexuality period. It is sin. And all sin leads to death and hell.
You may think your approach is loving, but it is not God’s love. God’s love tells people the truth and warns them of the consequences of sin.
To All,
I cannot rationally get into the homosexual debate and take a position other than to say that I will continue to get The Word of The Gospel to everyone I come into contact with.
No special understanding, no mixed in pop culture psychology…just The Word of God, plain and simple.
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Janet, you mentioned “close homosexual friends”.
To that I say this…
There are very few people I’ve met on earth that I would call “close friends”. They are very few and far between because if one’s foundation is not of The Word of God, then they have no basis for their deeds other than what pop psychology and the media teach them…which then relates to trust.
I would estimate that it is more likely that I would be personal “close friends” with the type of people who contribute to this blog as they likely have The Lord’s foundation…I said likely, not absolute.
I also think that surface friendship or acquaintance type friendship is most likely for those not in The Lord’s Word…for me.
To All ,
We can debate this issue from ever angle , however God has spoken clearly on homosexuality. We can add nothing to what He has declared. You cannot justify any position that is in conflict with what God has said. Christians clearly should not hate or despise homosexuals . If given the opportunity I will simply tell them THE TRUTH. If they reject that , I offer this : ” Christianity starts with a FACT , THE RESURRECTION ” Go study that from every angle and the facts will validate that IT HAPPENED !!!!!! BLESSINGS to ALL of YOU!!!!!
Hi Don Fritts,
Though I started this fire, I have come to the conclusion from all the comments that I must treat homosexuals no different than any other.
I surely am no better than any other.
The ONLY thing I have that is better than what others (in the world) might have is the love of The Lord in my heart…that’s it…but everyone who asks him can have that also.