I decided to start a monthly series on my perspectives on world and church issues. Some will have some bearing on end time Bible prophecy.
For those who do not know me and found this post through a search engine. I have had a website called The Prophetic Years for over ten years. For the last three years the site also hosts a Blog named “World and Church Trends and Bible Prophecy“. This blog is where these monthly perspectives are posted along with other posts of interest usually related to the Blog title. I will create a special category on the sidebar for these perspectives so you can find them all in one place. Comments are allowed if you read and adhere to my commenting policy.
I am sure many are not going to want to accept my perspectives for July because just too many want to fly off in the Rapture by the- day-after-tomorrow. Nevertheless, I am not here to itch anyone’s ears. I call it like I see it. If you insist that the Rapture “has” to occur in the next few years you might as well take your ball and go home, because your playing on the wrong field.
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Let me start July’s perspective by saying I read an article yesterday by a very well known and usually very good Bible prophecy teacher that dogmatically said the Rapture must occur by 2011 because all had to be completed 70 years from the creation of Israel in 1948. Thus, all has to be complete by the Feast of Trumpets 2018. He believes the rapture occurs at least seven years prior to the Feast of Trumpets 2018 so the Rapture must occur before the fall of 2011. This prophecy teacher is not alone, there are quite a few like him although perhaps they are not quite so dogmatic.
Now if you really believe that you will be gone in less than 15 months you might as well send me all the surplus money that you have. All you need is enough to keep you going for another 15 months. I wonder what this teacher is going to say for an encore after 2011 comes and goes. I suppose 70 years will be changed to 80 years and if that don’t work out it will become 120 years. It makes me wonder how long some people will continue to buy into speculations on certain passages as if it was biblical truth. These Rapture speculations have been going on my whole Christian life and not one has got it right yet.
This teacher also wants us to believe that the war of Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38 will be fulfilled before the final seven years, or prior to the end of next year. So we can all just blow our minds out of our butt and pretend that the Psalm 83 war and the Ezekiel war with its huge assembly of armies containing 9 nations can assemble a huge army and come down against an Israel living at peace and security in just one year? It simply is not going to happen!
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Bible prophecy teachers have been speculating for years that Israel is going to bomb Iran’s nuclear sites any day now, and without the help of the United States. About six months ago I came to the conclusion that this is very unlikely to happen. If a war were to break out now between Iran and Israel it certainly would also include the Arab Hezbollah and Hamas proxies. Yet, Iran is not mentioned at all in the Psalm 83 Arab war to cut off Israel from being a nation. So how can that be?
I have thrown around different ideas myself but I still think it is because there will be a Revolution in Iran before they make the decision to develop nuclear weapons. The Iranian people are against the Islamic regime and they have the army with them. If it comes to a revolution the army will fight with the people. Even voices of the elite Revolutionary Guard say they will not fight against the people. The regime is hiring outsiders to keep the people from gathering in large groups because they know if there is ever a national gathering like last summer again they will lose control. But sooner or later it is going to happen. It might take a few more martyrs but when the change comes it will happen in a day. The present ruling twelver’s will flee into exile.
What would Iran be like after the Revolution? It first will want to stop the sanctions and get aid and development from the West. All nuclear programs will be converted to be used for peaceful purposes and they would all be opened to international inspection. Actually Israel and Iran will become quite friendly and I think economic alliances will be set up. The Middle East will become a very wealthy place and it will be living in peace and that is the picture that we see before the war of Ezekiel 38. Most in Bible prophecy want to make that war imminent and in this decade but it just does not fit. I think the Ezekiel 38 war is more likely almost twenty years down the line. We cannot make Bible prophecy fit our own schedule based on our wanting to see the return of Christ in our lifetimes. So what will happen to the Arab nations that are now an imminent danger to Israel. I think Palm 83 describes that. At the time of the Ezekiel 38 war these nations are no where to be seen. Borders are gong to change radically in the Middle East. I think Israel, Iraq and Iran will be the big winners. The Arab nations that surround Israel will be the big losers. Then we will see peace in the Middle East until the time of the Ezekiel 38 Gog war.
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In Afghanistan we could win and we still lose our objectives. The tribal war lords that control that nation might agree to anything if it will get the U.S. to pull out. However, as soon as we are gone they will resort back to their tribal ways. There can be no strong central government in Afghanistan. What we need to do is hit terrorist camps anywhere they are located and not try to build a nation ruled by democracy where there can be no democracy. Even our own Western democracy is hanging by a thread. We should try to keep what our forefathers game us before we think we can tell others to live by the values that we are now so freely give up.
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We need to stop illegal Immigration it is not bringing us the best from other nations, it is bringing in many criminals. There simply is no reason why the federal government could not stop it if they really wanted to. If Mexicans and Central Americans knew that we had people that would use deadly force on the border and that they would be imprison when caught they hardly would come at all. If we did not allow employers to hire illegals and if illegals did not get free benefits they would leave this country. Most of them are remaining here hoping for another amnesty. We need to make it clear that any immigration to the United States will only be done legally.
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Some Christians do not understand Bible prophecy and Eschatology one iota and that is why secular news organizations pick up what they say and make Christians out to be complete idiots. For example, the Christian illiterates will remember that somewhere in the Bible it talks about the sea turning to blood. So they see some red in the oil spill in the gulf and give others the suggestion that they think it could be a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. Had they actually read the prophecy they would have to be complete idiots to believe that an oil spill is any fulfillment of it. But that is where we are at in Christian education these days.
First off, they should know that a third of the sea first turns to blood during the Trumpet Judgments. Anyone have a clue how they think we got to the Trumpet Judgments before the Day of the lord? The Trumpets occur after the time when everyone is hiding in the holes in the ground to protect them from what they see coming upon the earth? Clearly we are not in the times described in these chapters in Revelation.
Further, the prophecy specifically says a burning mountain will fall into the sea and that will make the sea turn into blood. So a asteroid or some comet is having an encounter with the Earth and not some Gulf oil spill. Right after that great body hits the sea and turns it to blood another body called Wormwood falls on the land and turns the rivers to blood. So oil spills do not fulfill Bible prophecy the judgments come out of heaven. So quit telling media about Bible prophecy when you have no understanding of it yourself! We saw the same thing happen with the burning wells of Iraq. Certain people were suggesting that it was a fulfillment of Bible prophecy. We really can’t expect media to have a clue about Bible prophecy but Christians should, and if they really do not know Bible prophecy they should just keep quite and let the media go to a more reliable source .
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One clear sign that we are getting near the end times is defection from the true faith to heeding doctrines of demons. We see that occurring on an every increasing scale even among Christian teachers, churches, and books. There are the heretical books like The Shack that promote Universalism among other heresies and is so big that most Christian teachers and pastors will not dare touch this sacred cow. But for every book like The Shack there are hundreds that are even more heretical but not quite as big. Many Christian books stores are now half filled with every kind of heresy.
And what do our Christian youth watch and read from secular sources? The twilight vampire series is now a big thing among young Christians. It used to by the Harry Potter series but even Christians can never seem to get enough of the occult. I guess the next big fad among Christians will be the Steve and Larry queer love tales. Now don’t ask me where to buy them. The story is still being inspired by a vampire that acquired AIDS through sucking Harry and Larry’s blood.
Don,
I’d like to hear your perspective on the Tamar and Leviathan natural gas discoveries in Israel and how that comes into play with everything else that is going on.
Thanks.
Israel is going to become very wealthy. They will be rich in gas and oil and thus become the envy of nations. But remember whatever Israel finds will take years even decades to develop.
Hi Don,
I’m in complete agreement with you regarding the timing of end-time events. Too much needs to happen to soon for a 2011 rapture.
I believe I know the pastor/ministry you’re speaking of and he and his website are one of my favorites, and one of the few I visit regularly along with yours. I read his article and some of his others recently and he is very set on the 2011 scenario.
This may be off topic, but why do you think it is that someone who is obviously spirit led, and on point on so many issues is so off base here. How come the spirit of the Lord doesn’t lead sincere belivers/teachers (i.e. you and him) to the same conclusions regarding matters such as these?
I ponder such differences frequently. With all the denominational differences, heresies, pre-trib/post-trib theories, etc. Why does it seem that the Lord does not allow those that are truly spirit led to find one coherent unified message on important matters like these?
I know that the message of salvation through Christ is really the only thing that NEEDS to be agreed upon, but sometimes it’s all so confusing and frustrating.
i don’t understand the rapture and how god has planned all of this, lets say if the rapture happens while im alive at an old age like 60 (im 24 now)and i get raptured alive with no death on this earth, does this mean im gonna be an old man living in the millenium? What if i want to be a at a young age in the millenium like right now at the age of 24 which would probably be the most amazing years, i mean who wants to be old in the new earth anyways right? so all the people that have died old age who get raptured and what happens in the millenium with them? i know that we will all live up to 1000 years probably like before the flood but there are still alot of things to explain here, like if i want to see my dad in the millenium, he is probably going to appear there as he died on earth as an old man im guessing. I dont know how is god going to deal with all of this iv been trying to figure all this out for a time now.
Couldn’t the rapture instantly create the enviroment for these other endtime events?
Dude, do you keep pebbles in your shoes just to stay pissed off all day ? We all know your talking about Jack. He backs his responses with scripture you mostly spout opinion. Don’t get me wrong I agree with you on timing because the Lord has always made me wait for anything good. So while I have to painfully watch barry and his minions destroy this country I hope you are gracious in your responses when we watch 2011,2012,2013 ect… come and go. Wayne
Hi Denis,
I don’t know if anyone will agree with me on this, and I’ll leave the details up to the experts, but I am of this opinion: God is SO good, that our transformed/resurrected bodies will not be subject to aging/disease, etc. God is SO good, that we will feel/look/be at our prime – always. Don’t sweat the details like that Denis, trust God completely, He will make sure our experience with Him in eternity will top everything that we’ve ever experienced or dreamed of on earth. More importantly, keep your eyes focused on Jesus Christ and prepare for the rapture – WHENEVER it happens. The point of Don’s posts are to draw attention to the fact that the rapture is in fact, just around the corner, but a lot of us argue over the semantics of that, and hope it is next year or tomorrow, when in fact, there are a lot of things, according to Scripture that have to happen first.
Keep Jesus at the front of your mind, and He will make sure those little details are answered beyond your wildest dreams. Keep praying, read the Bible, and trust Jesus Christ to be your Savior if you haven’t already.
^^ Don – I’ll let you take the one above…
Again, as always, great post;
Yes, I am also interesting in timing, but my interest is primarily one of deciphering what I should do in a practical and pragmatic way, day to day; I have been using your timing guide (http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/countdown_to_second_coming.htm), which I consider a great resource; I figure the rapture, as in your grid, is like 7 to 15 years away; It would be nice if the rapture came before some if not most of the seal judgments and, thus, the scenario of the fall of America prior and into the seal judgment period had some God controlled “grace” aspect to it, if at least for the sake of the ones who “humble” themselves;
The scenario of peace with Iran is intriguing; Never thought peace would come more naturally than through a war scenario.
I have been out, so I could not respond until now.
(Triangle) David, The Rapture could occur at any time. But no, if the rapture happened today it could not make everything fit within the next seven years. I give some of my reasons in this post.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/jesus-is-not-coming-to-rule-the-earth-between-2012-2019.html
Denis, I think Lisa answered you. Think of the difference between a worm and a butterfly. We are not going to be the same when we are taken. We will be transformed into a glorious new creature much like Jesus.
(Sq head) David, They do it because they are convinced they have the parable of the Fig Tree correct and think a generation has to be 70 year lifespan. Hal once thought it was 40 years so did Van Impe. Then Van Impe make it 53.? years.
The real problem is why do people set dogmatic dates for the second coming based on subjective interpretations of one parable, the length of a generation, and who Jesus was referring to in His discourse? I wrote a article that should help give my view on this.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/is-the-parable-of-the-fig-tree-about-the-generation-that-saw-the-rebirth-of-israel.html
Wayne it sounds to me like your the one that has a rock up your butt. If anyone is going to quote specific dates for the second coming of Jesus they also need to be prepared to take the heat. I agree with a lot of Jack’s teaching but not on this specific issue.
You say you agree that it will not happen that soon, but then you take pot shots at me for pointing out that it is not going to happen that soon?
I quote plenty of scriptures where quoting scriptures happen to be warranted. Obviously you have not read much of my stuff. Even cults can quote scriptures but that does not make their dogma true.
I wrote on those setting 2011-2019 for the tribulation in the article above and it was posted long before Jack posted his latest article. I also am discussing scripture in that article so you might take noticed. Also read the comments, I said more in the comments than in the post.
So why does it irk me when people set a date that would have to mean the Rapture is at most 15 months down the line. Because there are a lot of people out there who are going to believe it and look for escapism rather than dealing with the real problems in their lives, this nation, and in Christianity. There are many worse things coming down the line before the Rapture just read Peter and Jude. Nobody said the last days was going to be cake walk for true believers. Read the history of the Martyrs of the Church! What kind of wimps occupy America making them think that they are exempt from any suffering? By the way, we really have not seen any suffering yet for being a Christian, so wipe your nose.
Many using these very same dates base them on pagan prophecies and they are now looking for the Antichrist to come out of Islam. I have said it before and I will say it again. That is a deception! Those who fall for it might find themselves in alliance with the real future Antichrist. He will come to power out of the Pseudo Christian Roman system and it will oppose Islam if they do not convert.
I guess you do not remember the 88 reasons why Jesus will come in 1988 and other such speculations. Many Christians are now totally turned off to all that teach Bible prophecy because of the many wrong speculations of the past. How do you think Hank Hanagraaff got a following for His preterist book debunking the premillennial view? If this keeps up by the time Jesus comes there will be few on earth believing in Bible prophecy.
Remember, Jesus said He is coming at an hour when your think not. He also said no man will know the day or the hour. To then use that passage as a Jewish idiom indicating that the second coming will occur in a specific two day period in 2017 or 2018 is getting yourself out on a huge limb.
Let me clear up a couple of points that I have missed. I think the Rapture is always imminent. Nothing has to occur before the Rapture it could happen in the next second. My problem is with those that are dogmatically setting an out date of 2018 for the Second Coming.
I think the Rapture can occur at any time. Even Jack says it will only occur when the fullness of the Gentiles comes in and that God is looking for a number and not a date, but then He limits God to the next 15 months to complete that number?
(Sq David) I think God said that only one of the four church types that will be remaining on the earth in the end times would be aware of the time of His coming.
Many Catholics are bound up with Babylonian Jezebel The mainline Protestant Sardis Churches are near dead in apostasy and the Protestant Laodican Churches are in denial and many are going into apostasy loving the things of the world more than the things of God. Only Philadelepha has kept the word of His patience and will be kept out of the trial that will try the whole world.
You might take a look at chapters 2 and 3 of my Revelation Commentary to understand what I am saying.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/The%20book%20of%20Revelation/Revelaltion%20chap%202.HTM.
Actually you really should read the whole Revelation Commentary if you want to get a better handle on all this.
I guess that does not explain to you why there are so many differences even among those who believe Jesus is coming soon. I think that it is because the Church really does not need to know all the details. Actually most of this was written for Israel and those who go through t he tribulation.
When the end time comes the end time players such as the two prophets and the 144,000 and even the angels will make prophetic events crystal clear to those with ears to hear the truth.
I happen to agree with Jack Kelly’s assessment, BUT I’m not living my life based on it. I would have no basis to agree with him if he did not back his views with scripture.
I’m ready for the rapture to happen anytime, but our Lord will tarry until the time is right. He will keep His children regardless of what we must experience as the world “ripens” in its rot.
Certainly many things have to happen before the end, but we can see them lining-up quite “nicely” and we have other world events of the past to show us that the world can change even over night. (I’m thinking of the fall of the USSR as one recent example.)
Jack could be right; Don could be right. Both are voicing their opinions on the facts of current events and scripture as they honestly understand it. Both could easily be wrong. Because I see every indication that the hearts of both of these people belong to our Lord AND they have proven that they speak/teach without an agenda, I think that God will use them to focus their readers on Himself regardless if they are actually wrong in the *general* timing. I *do* think it is clear that nether one are “date setters,” and Jack has admitted that his analysis may be wrong, and if it is he has said he will apologize. IF any harm is truly done with respect to what either of these brothers has said, then I believe it will be to those whose hearts are hardened already. ANYWAY, I don’t think that it is appropriate to put Don or Jack into the category of “date setter” or “false teacher.”
I can speak personally to what I have written above: God has used both men to speak wisdom and encouragement to me; both have pointed me to Jesus and have glorified Him.
Abba, You’ve told us to watch for the return of Your Son – watch and be ready. For those of us who obey You here, we will surely know the season of this return. Help us to remember that the rapture could happen at any moment! Meanwhile we see that this world is coming to the climax You have taught us about. May these signs spur us, Your children, Christ’s Bride, to those good works You have planned for us! Please soften the hearts of those who You know will choose You, and let the hearts of those You know will never accept You continue to be hardened! We are *so undeserving* of Your grace, but there it is, poured-out before us in a flood that none could measure! Father, Jesus and Spirit, glorify Yourself in us today!
Brett,
I know you are just trying to be gracious, but apologies to those who make stupid decisions based on a Bible prophecy teaching that the Rapture will occur within 15 months will not set thing right with those who make life decisions based on believing these teaching.
I still get messages from people who bought into the 1988 dogmatism and did some very stupid things. I get messages even now from people who ask me if they should bother finishing higher education courses.
There are people that just spend all their time on Rapture boards discussing and affirming that the big snatch will surely come in a year or two instead of doing something useful with there lives for Christ.
The real point is what does the Bible really say? The Bible say nobody knows that day or hour not even the angels. Nor the Son. The time is set by the Fathers own authority (Mt 24:36). When the Father says it is time, the Bride is complete, it will be time. There is no time formula for man to learn! The signs given by Jesus will be for those left behind and the Jews not the Bride.
We can see we are getting near the end by world events lining up toward and according to what the Bible says will happen in the last days. But believe me Gog is not suddenly going to appear within 15 months with nine nations to take a spoil from Israel that is living in peace and security when there is no peace in security in Israel and there cannot be any peace before a war or a collapse of Islam. All that takes time. There are many peaces of the end time puzzle that are not fully in place and then for anyone to say they will be take place in 15 months is not credible.
I would rather see those teaching this, “say it is my speculation based on this one parable that all will take place by 2017, but I admit it is hard to see how it will all happen so soon so I could be wrong”. Instead they take the one parable, put their spin on how it should be interpreted and submit it as a dogmatic statement for naive Christians to choke on when it does not take place witin the dates they set.
Thank you Don.
Yes, I *was* trying to be gracious, but my words were not empty ones…
Re: those making life decisions based on [Jack’s teaching/opinion]
Well, those who oppose the pre-tribulation rapture view make very much the same assertion: they say we are dangerously influencing people into making the wrong life (and death) decisions. The correct response to this is to point them to scripture and let His Spirit do the work of convincing and convicting.
Don, some could turn your assertion around and say there will be some who will read your “predictions” and think “there’s plenty of time before Christ returns, I’ll do such-and-such [like the rich fool and his barns]…”
Sadly, regardless of when these last times events come to pass, there will be some who will have made mistakes because of what they heard or read. We who are honest in Him must do the best we have with the scriptural truth we have.
So, when people oppose a doctrine or an application of such, we back-up our view with scripture and any of our conjecture is constrained by it:
Well, in reading Jack’s assessment, he is backing his views with scripture and he is making it very clear that his “prediction” is educated opinion.
Don, I’ve read your views on this too, but other than the obligatory scripture about knowing the day or hour, you are not supporting your view that these events will be decades into the future with anything more than the argument “it simply can’t come together any more quickly.” What is *your* scriptural basis for this assertion? If I’m misunderstanding your position, would you please help me see where I am wrong?
In any event, where talk of Christ’s secret and visible return are concerned, none of us believers and *especially* no pre-believers should be making any life decisions EXCEPT those that help us draw closer to God on His terms. I’m pretty convinced that that was the main reason Jesus, the prophets and the apostles spoke/wrote on any of the end times.
I hope this is helpful. 🙂
Abba? Please help us know what You would have us to know and to express our opinions in a way that glorifies You. By all we can see of current events in the light of Your Word, this does appear to be the last days. Please grow us in Christlikeness and help us to use them for Your purposes; we know that Your purpose is that as many as will come, come to You through Christ!
Brett,
People can say anything they want about my teachings but the truth is that I have always taught that the Rapture is imminent. So I don’t know how anyone can honestly say that I think that there is plenty of time before the Rapture. People seem to equate the Rapture with the start of the tribulation because of the teaching of some. I do not. Enoch (a rapture type) was taken half a generation before the flood Judgment.
I do not want to prick anyone’s balloon here but I also do not believe that all identifying with Christianity will go in the Rapture. For those living a faithless life unpleasing to God any pretrib Rapture is a false hope.
Post Trib people also make some good points they just do not understand the unique role of the Bride or the promise to the faithful Philadelphian Church. Because she was faithful she will be kept from the HOUR of the trial. It is not a coincidence that she is the sixth Church just like Enoch was the sixth generation and was translated and did not see death. That promise is not given to the other churches. In fact, scripture implies that 3 of the 4 remaining church types on earth will be tried.
If all people on earth had to do is countdown from the Rapture they would pretty much know the timing of everything in Revelation. I do not think it will happen that way.
You say Jack is backing what He says about it all happening by 2018 with scripture? What scripture is that? He backs it with his own interpretation of what Jesus was saying about the fig tree. The interpretation of the parable Jesus told us to learn about from the interpreters point of view is subjective to his own understanding. The length of the generation that would not pass away is subjective to what he thinks a generation is. The generation that Jesus was actually speaking these words to is also subjective and seen to be different by different interpreters of God’s word. If you do not believe me ask other Bible prophecy teachers that do not see things Jack’s way. So how does Jack or anyone “really” back up their conjuncture with scripture??
How does one make the Gog war before the tribulation from any example of scripture? It might be before the tribulation and that is my view, but good teachers are all over the board on this.
How does one build a case from scripture that the Gog war is before the tribulation and then say the Gog war will be over within the next 15 months? Ezekiel says Israel has to first be living in peace and security. So how is a case being built from scripture that the Gog war will end within 15 months??
I am sorry Brett, anyone can quote passages from scripture but if the passages are applied to one’s own conjectures they mean nothing to anyone who does not believe the conjectures or checks out what the scriptures actually say.
You seem to want me to prove a negative by quoting scriptures where scripture is silent. The Bible does not tell us when Jesus will return or when the tribulation will start. So how can I quote scriptures that say the second coming is more than a decade away???
All I can do is look at what was said in prophecy and use reasonable common sense. I say it cannot happen in the next eight years because the events in Bible prophecy are going to happen as written. We cannot just shoehorn all future Bible prophecy so it will all fit within the next eight years if that makes no common sense. God can do anything if He wants but why should He change the laws of earth physics to fit someone’s time-line? Prophetic events will follow a logical order on the earth.
Russia with Gog and nine nations cannot be moving against Israel living in peace and security in one year unless the angels take over the world and force peace and help assemble the Gog armies, but scripture does not support anything like that.
The Church is going into apostasy and we can see where it is all heading and how it links up with Rome and interfaith universalism but it is not there yet. Even the seating of the Harlot on the Beast takes time.
The Beast kingdom likewise, is still in the formation process coming out of the old Roman Empire. No ten leaders are even on the horizon today and they have to come to power before the little horn comes up among them. Things can change fast but not that fast.
China and the Kings of the East will not be ready to move with a two hundred million man in just a few years unless they are riding on demons. I think the generation born for a year, a day, and a hour that kills a third of the men on earth is at least partly make up of the surplus men from the one child policy in China. These surplus men will peak in twenty years if China stops its one child policy today.
The mark of the Beast technology would take at least a decade to implement worldwide if Bible prophecy teachers are correct in what they believe the mark is. I think they are but I think the technology will be all set up so the Antichrist can use it by the time he takes power. We are probably at least two decades away from that kind of communication and identification system worldwide. If a world dictator took over tomorrow it still would take at least a decade to manufactures all the buy/sell devices and put them in place everywhere. Not to mention the communications system that would be needed worldwide.
I could go on but what’s the point nothing in scripture says it could not all happen in seven years but than again nothing in scripture says it will all happen in seven years either. All we know on the seven years issue is that there is a seven year covenant and the Antichrist breaks the covenant in the midst of that seven years. The two prophets of God will have control for the first half of the week of years and the Antichrist has control for the second half of the week. We do not know for sure what happens prior to that seven year covenant. Those are within the beginning of sorrows.
You say nobody should be making life decisions based on this conjecture and I totally agree with you there. But the point is that people are! And they are doing it now because some are teaching a 2011 to 2019 fulfillment. This date setting has been going on for decades and like I said if the Lord tarries until 2040 we will probably be able to count pre-millennial believers on two hands.
Maybe now we know why in the last days people will be mocking other Christians saying to them “where is the promise of his coming”? You see Brett, every time a date that someone sets comes and goes without fulfillment it helps feed the Dominionist movement. That is why it has become the fastest growing movement in Christianity today.
With all that said, I hope you now see my point.
are u telling me that god is gonna let this disturbing sickening world go on like this for atleast 2 more decades? it looks like you are correct, god help us.
Probably, God let it go on for about 6000 years now. Sure things do not look good in the future but if you look back 70 or 80 years they were not looking very good either or 145 years or 230 years or about 500 years or about 1000 years or nearly 2000 years or about 3000 years or just before the flood. The world has always been pretty disturbing but now we have a population explosion like in the days of Noah and Israel is back in the land and limelight so we are getting close to show and tell time.
Don,
I think you misunderstand me: I’ve never said that you don’t teach the rapture as being imminent. It can happen at any moment. You, me and Jack each believe and communicate this. That’s not the issue here.
The issue, as I see it, is the timing of the end of this age. Jack believes it will come sooner (and he has scriptural and logical reasons) and you believe it will come later (and you express logical reasons).
The rapture is an imminent event that must occur before the end can come (if you believe the pre-tribulation interpretation of scripture). If there is a time-limit from the start of these prophesies and their fulfillment, then there necessarily will be a end point. (Israel must exist at the start of this period, and Jesus said there was a time-limit to the period, if you take the word “generation” by its normal meaning) Obviously then, there is an end point at which the rapture must occur. It does not tell us when it will occur, but it does tell us when it cannot occur.
Moreover, as you’ve already mentioned, Jack believes we cannot know when the rapture will occur because is it NOT a dated-event, rather he believes (from his interpretation of scripture) that the rapture will occur when the number of members of the Church is complete.
I think I am understanding correctly that you both consider the rebirth of Israel in 1948 to signify the beginning of the Last Days, so you both consider us to be in the “terminal generation” – the generation that will not die before before Jesus returns visibly in the Second Coming. If you do not believe this, then you and Jack are on very different pages.
From his study of scripture, Jack believes that there is a window of time into which all the prophesies-up-to-and-including the Second Coming must fit: The starting point is the either the rebirth of Israel in 1948 (Matthew. 24:32-33 but there are MANY scriptures that support this directly or indirectly) or the recapture/reunification of Jerusalem in 1967 (by inference, see rebirth of Israel – BUT Jack believes this date is disqualified for a couple of scriptural reasons). The ending point is the end of the generation that witnessed the start (Matthew. 24:34). The duration of the generation is thought to be 70 years (Psalm 90:10, Isaiah 23:15). This gives a window from 2018 to 2037. Subtract 7 years and realize that there is going to be some “slop” in the 360/365 year issue, AND we don’t know if the tribulation will follow the rapture immediately, AND we don’t know if Jesus will return immediately after the 1260 days, because no one will know the day or the hour (Matthew 24:29-30 BTW, this scripture applies to the 2nd Coming, NOT the rapture as most assume). That’s a summary of what he believes and teaches about this. He’s not setting any specific time/date, he is showing that there is a great likelihood of these events occurring within a given time frame.
Now, If I understand you correctly Don, you believe that the Second Coming cannot happen as quickly as Jack thinks it might, but you have written that you believe it will come a few decades down the road (which pretty-much fits within Jack’s window, BTW). The difference as I see it is that you have *no other reason* than that you simply don’t think things can come-together SO QUICKLY as to allow for a sooner return. OK, that’s nice, that’s your (well) educated opinion:
I ask again Don, what is your *scriptural* reason for believing that? ***I’m not asking that you prove a negative.*** Actually, I would not ask at all and I would gladly leave you to your opinion *IF* you hadn’t jumped all over Jack about his. It seems from what you’ve written that you think Jack has just pulled this stuff out of his “back-side” and is irresponsibly trying to lead people astray. If that’s what you are really trying to communicate to us, then I think you owe him an apology; if not, then perhaps you could choose less harsh words and not be so dogmatic?
Both you and Jack are intelligent and Godly people who have a good sense of history and of current events. Both of your opinions are plausible, but Jack has reasoned from scripture (in this particular point we are discussing) and I do not believe you have – to me, that’s a tie-breaker.
Don, I mean all I have written in a spirit of love, and I hope you accept it that way.
Also Don,
Yes, I understand your concern about “date-setters” and how that just gives the scoffers “ammunition.” I am concerned about this too, and Jack seems to be concerned about it as well – he has repeatedly stated that he is not setting a date, but he is reporting a time-frame as deduced from scripture.
We are clearly getting closer to the end of the Church Age, and it certainly seems reasonable that we as believers will see more and more clearly the approach of the end. We can clearly see our Savior coming even if we don’t know exactly when He will arrive. The world *will not* see this until it is too late – they are blinded to it, that’s one reason there will *always* be scoffers whether there were embarrassing date-setters or not.
Don, the reason I’m writing this follow-up is because when I re-read your post in answer to me, I realized that you are honestly trying to communicate an urgent point to me in *good faith*, and I recognize that the tone of the end of my prior post was somewhat harsh. I’m hoping that as you read this, that you will realize that I too have everyone’s best interests at heart.
Abba, please help us to be discerning and to express that in love. I think it’s easy for us to get carried-away in our sharing because we perceive the “stakes” to be so high – we don’t want to have caused another to stumble or an unbeliever to reject You. You are God over all of this and we submit ourselves to You; please apply the balm of Your Spirit to this discussion.
my bet is that Jesus will rapture us before you guys end this conversation. 🙂 let’s talk about something else – Don – please look into the oil/natural gas discoveries Tamar and Leviathan and see how that plays into end times events.
Brett the problem is that you are reading things into scripture that the scripture does not say.
Quoting scripture to support a conjecture does not make a conjecture true.
The Bible does not say that the generation that would not pass away is the generation that saw the dry bones state of Israel appear in 1948. You and Jack assume it is but scripture does not say that.
Nor does scripture say how long a generation is. Lindsey and Van Impe were sure it meant all would be completed in forty years. The Jack in question thinks it is seventy. Sean Osborne is also astute and thinks it is 80 years. The other day I got a email from someone who thinks it is 120 years from the Balfour declaration of 1917 when the idea for an Israeli state was agreed on.(The 120 years came from the idea that it would be like the days of Noah and Israel is a witness like Noah to the world). The point is that all of this is conjecture because Jesus may not have been saying that Israel was the fig tree at all. In fact, Jack even says the fig tree is not Israel. Jesus may have been saying that those that see the beginning of sorrows and signs He mentioned would not pass away.
I am getting a little tired of being told that I am only giving my opinion and that others with this theory are quoting scripture. Everything I say on Bible prophecy is based on my understanding of scripture and my study of Bible prophecy for forty years. I am not reading into the text of scripture something that is not said but others are. You show me where scripture says Jesus was talking about Israel being make a state in 1948 and that all would be completed in 70 years from that date? The whole concept is based on nothing more than conjecture.
Do I believe the last days started in 1948? No. Because according to scripture the last days started in the first century. Do I think Israel had to be brought back to the land to fulfill end time prophecy? Of course I do. But I am not going to say that scripture teaches that all will be fulfilled in 70 years from the date Israel became a nation while still in unbelief.
So no, I do not believe that infants born in 1948 are among the terminal generation. Jesus was talking to adults of a future generation who could see and understand the signs. That generation is probably the generation that will not pass away until all is fulfilled. Nor do I think Jesus was necessary talking about a lifespan. He might have been talking about the normal length of a generation which is from a mother to her first offspring. Today a generation is about 20 years. By the way that was Lindsay and Van Impe’s understanding of a generation. also if that interpretation is correct Jesus said it would be fulfilled in less than a generation. That could mean all will be fulfilled in 10 or 15 year span if a generation is what I insinuated.
So Jesus may have been saying from the time you see the first birth pains all will be completed in less than 20 years. Sure that is conjecture as well but I am not dogmatic about my conjecture of what Jesus was saying. At least my explanation is logical and it can happen but for anyone to say all Bible prophecy will be fulfilled in the next eight years is not even logical and they certainly are not basing it on any literal reading of scripture.
Actually Brett, Jack is setting a specific date of Jesus second coming even if he claims not. I read the article. He says the second coming will happen on the Feast of Trumpets and if you do the math it will have to happen in 2007 or 2008. There are only 4 days that qualify and in a couple of months there will only be two days that qualify assuming the Rapture occurs at least seven years before like Jack clearly says. So I do not know how you can get any closer to date setting than actually picking an hour in that 48 hour period.
My belief that the second coming of Jesus is probably at least two decades in the future is based on my study of world trends that correlate to indicate that it will take about that long for the prophecies to be literally fulfilled. The scriptural reason for believing that is the events mentioned in the Bible like the Psalm 83 war, the peace in Israel before the Gog war, the Ezekiel war, the rise of the world government, the world harlot taking her position in Rome etc. It is all based on my understanding of scripture but I cannot chapter and verse general biblical concepts at least not without writing a book and even then some would see it as speculation. The bottom line is that it simply cannot all happen in 8 years.
And no Brett, two decades or more down the line is not within Jack’s window if he is claiming that it will all be fulfilled before 2018.
I told you why I am against date setting so I am not going to repeat what I already said and I will guarantee you that 99 percent of Bible teachers will not support Jack on his 2018 second coming deadline.
I know where Jack gets this theory the theory has been rehashed in every decade since Hal Lindsey first brought it up in the 60’s. I do not doubt that Jack believes this but he ought to teach it as a theory and not teach it as if it were biblical truth. Some people do make life decisions based on the teachers they follow and I already expressed that all this calling wolf by some Bible prophecy teachers is fueling a movement into Dominion Theology.
I just do not know how you sugar coat errant teaching that has such profound consequences to those who buy into it and the whole Bible prophecy field. Ask any discernment ministry what they think of this 2018 deadline for Jesus to return. If I did not point out the danger of such theology I would be remiss. It is Jack that needs to modify his position before a dogmatic position destroys a ministry that has been very positive voice for premillennial theology.
I understand that you want Jack to be right because your tired of waiting but sorry he is not on solid ground on this teaching. I do admire most of Jack teaching, he is quite a scholar but he is flat wrong to put all his eggs in this conjecture. But like I said before, the Rapture can happen at any time so keep up the blessed hope, Brett.
Don, thank you for clarifying my understanding of your thoughts.
Lisa, I already answered that
Israel is going to become very wealthy. They will be rich in gas and oil and thus become the envy of nations. But remember whatever Israel finds will take years even decades to develop.
I doubt if it will play a role in the near wars against Arab neighbors but it will be another reason why Gog comes to take a spoil.
Brett, I know that you have no ill intent. I really have been doing my best to express my concerns to you on this position.
Thanks Don, I *do* appreciate what God does through you here in this ministry.
You’ve given me some things to think and pray about! 🙂
Take Care!
Not to beat the Matt 24 fig tree passage to death, but maybe the key is in the part “put forth leaves”. Maybe they haven’t put forth leaves yet because they are back in the land , primarily in unbelief. When we get closer to the second coming and the rebuild their temple, then maybe we have some leaves. I noticed the fig tree part comes after the beginning of sorrows. Depending on how/when one defines the beginning of sorrows, maybe we get a little more in focus? Don, you said a generation could be as little as 20 years. If the beginning of sorrows is the first seal, then all will be fulfilled in less than a generation of 20 years with room to spare. Just my two cents.
Bill, I see that view as being a viable possibility.
The Biblical calendar was given by Gabriel to Daniel. 70 weeks of years, the last 7 of which are the Tribulation (3.5 years) and the Great Tribulation (3.5 years). Daniel even reduced the data on these years by also providing specifc numbers of days in which events transpire at their appointed times.
Is the generation of which Jesus spoke to witness all these things only of a duration of just 7 years?
I think not.
The final generation begins at some point well prior to the final 7 years, be it 40, 70 or 80 years with strength in duration.
I believe we are that generation.
Of Course. I just explained what I think in my very next post.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/learn-the-parable-of-the-fig-tree.html
It is pretty obvious to me Jesus was not talking about a seven year period or he just would have quoted that passage in Daniel. I know you believe that the Psalm 83 war and the Ezekiel 38 war are before the tribulation. What I suggest is that these wars are the beginnings of sorrows and the signs that Jesus told to look for. You will have to read the post to get the picture.