I have figured out that I really cannot figure out how end time prophetic events involving Israel will all play out but of course like so many others that write on Bible prophecy that won’t stop me from writing about it.
Probably the main premillennial futurist speculation today is that the war of Ezekiel chapter 38 will take place within a few years but that does not make sense to me in the light of present world realities. Israel is not living in security as it is so clearly stated in the Ezekiel prophecies. Israel cannot be living in security without some significant change in thinking in the entire Middle East. The idea that Israel can just make a peace deal with the Arabs and then live in security so that the Ezekiel Gog war can take place is totally out of touch with today’s Middle East realities.
There is a more recent second theory that Israel will first fight the war mentioned in Psalm 83 and take over all the Arab nations that surround it. It might answer the Ezekiel security problem but it raises other perplexing issues. Like how does a nation of 7 million Jews do that? How does this military action then give Israel a feeling of security in the light of a hostile Iran and Turkey? I also do not understand how the passage in Psalm 83:3 about “thy hidden ones” fits a pretribulation war?
Israel is not hidden from the Arab confederacy today. That statement about being hidden would seem to be more appropriately applied to Israel at a time when she is hidden by the angel Michael in the mountains of Jordan during the great tribulation. Other wording in Psalm 83 also makes it logical to assume that this Psalm is fulfilled in the time of Jacob’s trouble. After all, Jacob’s trouble was Essa. Jacob’s trouble and the associated prophetic passages about Jacob’s trouble seem to occur in the Day of the Lord and that normally is thought to take place in the last 42 months. But who knows? Just because this greatly expanded Israel theory does not fit to my satisfaction does not mean it is not true.
Some of these with this theory also associate Isaiah chapter 17 with a pretribulation Psalm 83 war. But, if the events of Isaiah 17 took place before the great tribulation then why does it picture the remnant of Israel like the gleanings after the harvest? How can most in Israel be killed and then become an exceedingly great army that will possess the land just before some still pretribulation Gog war? It just is not logical to me, but that does not mean that they are wrong.
Let’s look at present day world realities. Israel is on the brink of war. There are over 40,000 rockets pointing at Israel today many from Iran. Israel is certainly not living in any security. Iran is threatening to wipe Israel off the map and Iran is developing nuclear weapons. Yet Iran is not even mentioned in the Psalm 83 war? So how is the Psalm 83 war the next war? Is there a revolution in Iran first or does the US take out Iran’s capabilities? Who really knows? We do know that Iran does not come against Israel until the Gog war when Israel is living in security.
If Israel takes over all the Arab nations around her how would she have security? There would be revolution all over the lands that she occupies and probably a UN action. I do think there are some things that no one is getting here.
With all that in mind, It would seem to me that there has to be some forced peace in the Middle East among all nations around Israel before the war of Ezekiel 38 can take place. So how can this peace be accomplished? Through some two state solution? That concept is laughable. Through war? Most likely. But, how can this war take place and still leave Israel secure?
I will give you my thoughts for what they are worth on how that can take place. There will be a world war against Islam and the entire Middle East will come under the control of the West. It will be the land area of the Old Roman Empire. Israel will then be living in peace and security under Rome. She will be a member state in this revived Roman Empire. The Arab nations around Israel will disarm and they also will be under the Roman System. Later comes the Gog war but these Arab nations are not among them because all these nations now identify with the Roman Empire.
By the way, I think the world war with radical Islam will come because terrorists will soon use weapons of mass destruction against the West. They might do this because of a strike on Iran or for no good reason. I also think this war is imminent. I think before long Israel and the whole area will be under the new Roman Empire and that is where Israel gets its security. After the Gog war, the Roman Empire leader will confirm the agreements once again with the many, but 42 months later he will move the center of his empire to Babylon and carry out war against Israel.
So is the Psalm 83 the next Middle East war? Who really knows for sure? One thing is certain. We will not have long to wait to find out.
Funny thing about “progressive” administrations in America’s past. They seem to end up in war for US. This current administration, and in fact all of the west, is in dire straits. Probably the only thing that would cause a reaction from US at this point is an absolutely overtly barbaric act by terrorists. (even then I’m not 100% positive it would)
Recent events would seem to indicate that the Obama admistration isn’t the least bit concerned with the ’10 elections, let alone ’12. They have tunnel vision when it comes to implementing their agenda. But it’s becoming more and more clear to anyone with a brain (and eventually even those without) that their agenda doesn’t work. When that happens look out. War will be their cry.(quite ironic isn’t it)
Don’s argument has merit. I’m not dogmatic in it’s processes’, however I am dogmatic in its conclusion. Make no mistake the current world situation will continue to decay and many will pay the price for others decisions. Jesus will ultimately prevail. The stage is undoubtedly being set.
The BP oil spill is one of at least 12 Biblical prophesies that have now occured…
1. Nation of Israel returned
2. The Christ returned*
3. Ronald(6 letters) Wilson(6) Reagan(6): “‘1st Beast’, ruler of world, lied to all nations, wounded yet lived ”
4. George(6) Walker(6) Bush Jr(6): “‘2nd Beast’, imitated 1st Beast (Reagan), made fire come down from heavens with ‘destruction of Babylon’ (Iraq War)”
5. United(6) States(6) Dollar(6): “‘mark of Beast’ necessary to buy or sell with”
6. Two false ‘self-proclaimed messiahs’ in Miami (my home): Yahweh ben Yahweh and Jesus de Silva
7. “Book/scroll” w/ “7 seals”: ‘beyond Einstein theories’ produced**
8. Literal “destruction of Babylon” (Iraq War)
9. Symbolic ‘destruction of Babylon’ world economic crisis
10. Earthquake in Haiti when “7 seals” were posted on godlikeproductions.com
11. ‘End of Age’ is correct, not ‘end of time’ or ‘end of world’. The ‘Age of Pieces’ ended and the ‘Age of Aquarius’ has started
12. Oil spill – Rev 8:8 & 16:3
13. Rev 21:1, “And I saw a new heavens and a new earth”. 450+ exoplanets have been discovered and the 1st Earth-like exoplanet should be verified soon
– *Brad Watson, Miami, FL
author of **’There Are No Coincidences’: the “book/scroll” of Rev 5:1-10:10 (Google me & ‘7 seals revealed’)
I let that comment get through only because it makes for a good laugh. The fact that some people actually buy this stuff is more scary that any conspiracy theory.
i agree don, something is not making sense here.
So you can’t buy or sell with the Stirling Pound or Kuwaiti Dinar or any of the hundreds of other currencies? Yes, thanks for leaving that comment up Don!! 🙂
Yeah, Normally I trash such stuff but the comment by Brad reflects a certain mindset on the Internet that Christians should be aware of – or should I say beware of.
Re: The wickedness of Brad Watson types: they go through life “expecting grace again and again”… spoiled rotten brats (or, Brads, in this case) who prostitute themselves to lies and vile but have zero respect for truth (of the scriptures);
Back to the subject matter… I continue to feel like I’m behind the curve of practical preparedness for all the threats; Frankly, I just spent the last two weeks taking down and / or mass-trimming of suspect trees in preparation for the coming hurricane season; As for terrorism on the WMD scale, the outcome you (Don) pontificate seems totally logical, but we (US) lack any kind of leadership that would be effective; The war cry seems almost inept;
Look at this way, when that hurricane hits the coast or an EMP you people will have plenty of oil available for your hurricane lamps
There is no leadership from any political spectrum that is going to emerge to fix the ongoing apostasy and harlotry of the people. That is the real reason why our nation is in decline. If the Far Right dominionists like Palin actually get control there will be a very real revolution coming from the government dependents in all the major cities of America.
If the left stays in power and continues toward communism there will be a real revolution from the Right in the flyover states.
We can only fix this nation by converting the people to true Christianity, but few in this nation have ears to hear that message anymore. So barring a huge judgment and national repentance our goose is cooked.
Christians not living as instructed in the Bible have no moral high ground to lead this nation.
Don,
Regarding the sticking point you identify in Psalm 83:3 as “thy hidden ones” and fitting a pretribulation war scenario.
I happen to be under the conviction that this phrase is a direct reference to the 144,000 Jewish evangelists identified in Revelation 7 and 14.
With respect to the imminent, sequential, prophetic pre-tribulation wars (Psalm 83, Isaiah 17, Ezekiel 38/39, et cetera), and with significant consideration to the prophetic truth that we are talking about a single generation (per the Lord Jesus Christ), as well as the prophetic fact-of-the matter that these individuals are sealed by God from harm… who else in “last days” eschatology could this phrase be referring to but the 144,000 Jewish evangelists?
The word used by Asaph in Psalm 83:3 is tsaphan. Tsaphan is a verb, and it conveys the meaning of a God-hidden, guarded or concealed treasure; that which is protected, laid up or stored up by God in His Sovereignty for a Divine purpose.
Reference the prophecy of King David is Psalm 27:5 as it relates to this phrase.
Hi Sean,
That is not logical to me since I know you believe the Psalm 83 war is before the tribulation. So how could this verse in context be referring to the 144.000 of the tribulation period? By the way, nobody is coming against Israel to wipe the 144,000 out in that passage. The Arab nations conspire to cut off Israel from being a nation not the 144,000.
Like I said, some of this Bible Prophecy teaching is just not fitting the scripture sequence for me. I would think the hidden ones of Psalm 83 would more likely fit those hidden when Michael intercedes and Hides Israel in the mountains of Jordan from the Antichrist. But that would make the Psalm 83 war occur at the start of the Great tribulation. However, I am opened minded about other possibilities because I think there are just some things that we are still not getting.
Hi Don,
You ask, “how could this verse in context be referring to the 144.000 of the tribulation period?”
Because I also believe some or a good portion of those 144,000 are alive as young children in Israel at this very moment. The Arabs conspiring to cut off Israel is inherently also a conspiracy to kill the 144,000 as they are an integral part of Israel prior to the commencement of their ministry.
I believe there is a relatively short interval of years between the onset of Isaiah 17/Psalm 83, Israel’s recovery from that conflict and the subsequent and sudden attempted invasion of Ezekiel 38/39. These are short duration, extremely violent wars.
I believe the Tsaphan (as defined above) are an elect of God, they are unique and special, their names are already written in the Boof of Life, they have been chosen for their coming ministry. We cannot know precisely when they are sealed except that it is accomplished prior to the Mark of the Beast. I accept by conviction that they are sealed by God upon birth which ensures that they are the spiritual virgins John writes about in Revelation 14:4.
They will survive Isaiah 17, Psalm 83 and then the Battle of Gog/Magog. Their evangelizing ministry will occur during at least the first half of Daniel’s 70th Week, simultaneously with the ministry and prophesying of the Two Witnesses.
My interpretation of Isaiah 17 envisions a barrage of Syrian and Hezbollah missiles armed with BioChem warheads which will kill many Israeli citizens. It is this coming attack which results in the overnight nuclear annihilation of Damascus. I view Isaiah 17 as a precursor or precipitator event to the Psalm 83 conflict.
Sean, your view on the 144.000 is an interesting viewpoint that I have never heard before.
I have some difficulty with it though. You assume that the sealed are sealed before they are even sealed but that is not what Revelation says. You would also need to assume that all the 144,000 are in the state of Israel today but we do not know if all the sealed come from within the borders of the state of Israel. In fact, I rather doubt it.
Revelation does tells us when they are sealed. So I really do not know why you think we cannot know when they are sealed? Revelation says they are sealed by angels after the sixth seal and before the angels are allowed to carry out the judgments in the Day of Wrath.
In Psalm 83 it says they take crafty counsel against thy people, And consult together against thy hidden ones. How do they consult together against the 144,000 if they do not even know about them?
I am aware of your view of Isaiah 17 and Psalm 83 but if Israel is so decimated like the gleaning after the harvest of an olive tree as Isaiah 17 indicates how do they soon thereafter occupy the lands of all the nations mentioned?
Interesting conjecture Sean, but it just does not solve the prophetic riddle on the timing of these events for me.
Don,
A couple of items relating to the all important aspect of the timing of prophetic events. This response will get to the crux of the issue (well beyond the prophetic issue of the 144,000 but including them) which you confess in the first sentence of your article: “I have figured out that I really cannot figure out how end time prophetic events involving Israel will all play out…” I’m not sure how to present the following to you, so I’ll just briefly itemize and lay it out for your consideration.
1.) I hope you are aware that the Seals of Revelation 6 are identical and in the exact same sequence to the signs of the ‘end of the age’ that our Messiah gave to His disciples in the Olivet Discourse; which is the same thing as saying that Matthew 24, Mark 24 and Luke 17 or 21 are precisely identical accounts of the breaking of the Seals 1 through 6 of Revelation 6. They are an overview of the events which occur during Daniel’s 70th Week.
2.) In explanation of your counter-point you jumped from Revelation 6:12-16 to Revelation 17:1-3 – skipping everything which occurs between the Sixth Seal of Revelation 6 and the first three verses of Revelation 17. IU assume you understand that Revelation 17 is really a parenthetical reiteration and explanation of the events described in Revelation 14. And that Revelation 14 is an explanation of the seven visions, but not in the same sequential or chronological order in which they actually occur.
3.) How can the sealing of the 144,000 occur in the time you cite in your quote above – which is precisely at the end of Daniel’s 70th Week? This cannot be. Their ministry is prior to the Abomination of Desolation.
This is some heavy and deep eschatological material, so I’ll leave it right here for the moment for reading and digesting.
Sean
Sean, I have been studying Bible prophecy for nearly forty years and I have figured out that no one has Bible prophecy all figured out. If anyone does not believe that just look at the many differences in the teachings of the top Bible prophecy experts.
I generally agree with your item 1 except I would not include Luke 17 since it is talking about events after the seals.
On your item 2, I really did not jump from Rev 6 to Revelation 17 that Rev17 is a typo it should have been Rev 7. The wording is that of Revelation 7 not Revelation 17. The error occurred because I had to type in the chapter numbers but the scripture sequence I gave was from Rev 6:12 to Rev 7:3. You still need to address my real argument that says we do know when the 144,000 are sealed.
Your item 3 is answered by my explanation on item two.
This is my current understanding:
1. There are two houses of hebrews. Judah and Joseph/Israel/Ephraim. Jacob after a certain point in scripture begins to refer to Physical Hebrews and Israel sometimes refers to spiritual Jews but can certainly refer to literal physical descendants of Jacob/Israel too.
2. Judah, we know. Joseph/Israel/Ephraim we do not know. Yet, the dispersed house is out there. It is prophesied that both houses will combined into one and ruled by Yeshua.
3. This gathering process will be accomplished during Jacob’s Trouble (not Judah’s Trouble). It will culminate in the Day of the Lord at the end of this age. Much discomfort and purging will happen per Jeremiah 30 and 31.
4. The 10 tribes are mostly found in the West. They are found all around the world, but there is collective evidence placing many of them in Europe and its colonies. Still, as individuals or collectively, identity is hidden.
5. This grouping of the twelve tribes (sinse Judah is also found among the other tribes) is not the body of believers we know as the church.
6. Upon the completion of the Psalm 83 War, Israelis will have gained much land and subdued the sourround peoples. In fact, such an outcome will serve to draw out the hostility of a larger ring of nations: Gog and Magog confederacy.
7. A call to the land for all interested parties will ensue to possess the land. Victorious nations must by practice “occupy” taken territory or render such a victory void. Some will come. They will be comprised of fundmentalists, evangelicals, charismatics, pentecostals, and messianic believers: in essence spiritual Israel, the remnant. Of course, others will heed the call. Such a concentration would further draw the attention of dark forces. Such a call would especially be ignored by those who enjoy the pleasres of the West: sins.
8. The Gog/Magog War will take place with nations opposing the evil confederacy. Those opposing appear to be from the West and colonies of Europe.
9. Interestingly, not much later Babylon (daughter of babylon, Jer. 50) is destroyed and its survivors will seek Jerusalem (the only free place remaining – and where the righteous have already fled to). I think that the U.S.A is the daughter of babylon. The mother of bablyon (who is ashamed for not coming to the defense) is Europe.
10. With many thousands (perhaps millions) of “physical Israelites” flooding into Israel, the land will be barely able to contain them all. Then at the 3 and half year point, the Abomination of Desolation is set up in the Temple. At that point many will be slaughtered who haven’t passed into the Wilderness 45 days earlier. The believing remnant will be safe. It will consist of Jews and Ephraimites and mixed peoples. They are also the source of the 144,000. The 144,000 will literally be their adult children sent by the prophet Eliyahu into the world to proclaim the gospel. The rest will pass over into Edom for safe keeping. The remnant will be beyond the reach of the Anti-messiah. He will go after the 144,000 to no avail.
11. 30 days before the end of the 70th Week, the Wrath of God, the remnant will be raptured and later return to establish the Earthly Reign of Yeshua.
12. The Feasts of God establish His timing. There are bookend wars for the 70th Week. Gog/Magog and the Battle of Armageddon. They occur on certain days. The rapture occurs on Yom Teruah: the period to observe a new moon took place over a 48 hour period – hence no man knew the day nor the hour – knowing Jewish idioms helps.
shalom!
1. Where is that in scripture? True believers of Judaism can not be identified by tribe.
2. Where is not knowing Joseph/Israel/Ephraim in scripture? As for the two houses combining it already happened all Israelites are called Jews.
3. Where is Judah’s trouble found in scripture apart from Jacob’s trouble?
4. If the ten tribes are hidden how would you know? Most of the ten tribes moved south after the northern kingdom fell and they became known as Jews. There are some lost Jews out there but not as many as you think. Most have already been identified by their customs.
5. I agree that Israel is not the Church.
6. Scripture does not indicate that Gog comes down because they are hostile against Israel. Scripture says Gog comes down to take a spoil against Israel living in peace and security.
7. Christians are not going to be going to Israel to possess the land. Remember, you yourself admitted that Christians are not Israel.Israel would not allow Gentiles to possess their land.
8. Where is that in scripture? There is no indication from scripture that the West will fight against Gog and his forces. Scripture is clear that God will become known to the nations of the world because He Himself will fight for Israel against the forces of Gog.
9. Babylon has always been in Iraq. If you study the old testament prophecies about Babylon they clearly do not fit the United States.
10. Where is all that conjecture in Scripture? Revelation clearly says the 144,000 will come from 12 named tribes of Israel.
11. The wrath of God cannot be completed in just 30 days. The Trumpets are the wrath of the Lamb and He is God. Besides, in Revelation it says the great day of His wrath has come at the sixth seal prior to the Trumpet judgments. We are told that just the fifth trumpet judgment spans 5 months. The Day of the Lord or the day of wrath is 3 1/2 years.
12. The Rapture of the Church has nothing to do with Israel since Israel is not going and is not the Bride.
All this makes me wonder where you are getting this stuff? I know one thing for sure. You are not getting this stuff from proper exegesis of the scriptures.
denis posted this in a post that had nothing to do with topic so I moved it here.
“I found this on pat robertson and it seems to me he has no idea what war comes next.
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2010/June/Prophecy-Unfolding-Turkeys-New-Role-in-Mideast/
Pat Robertson is confused about many things but the article was not written by him and I generally do not disagree with what was said. But the Gog war itself is still a decade or so in the future.
sorry about posting in the wrong section!! and yes he even predicted many things which never came to pass, claiming that he is some kind of a prophet, it’s actually funny.
at the end of the video he says ezekiel 38 is next, i personally think psalm 83 will be fought next, just my opinion.
What video all I have is that link?
i agree, there is no way that the gog war is gonna be fought anytime soon, the timeline just doesn’t fit, i read your article about the trends from 2010 to 2030 of what should happen in these next 20 years and i agree 100 percent, people like pat aren’t being reasonable and they are just guessing. I think the gog war is another decade away just by common sense alone.
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/insideisrael/2010/June/Prophecy-Unfolding-Turkeys-New-Role-in-Mideast/
there should be a small screen video in the upper left, pat starts taking at 2:20 mark
I have dial-up so……..forget it, but others can waste their time if they want.
i think people have to be blind not to realize in what kind of times we live in, i was shocked to see how turkey turned away from israel recently, its like seeing prophecy in the front pages of the news daily, i thank god for opening my eyes, because so many people are asleep these days its shocking. And all of this has a connection with the rebirth of israel in 1948 which is an obvious sign that we are so near. Especially with this economic fall that we are witnessing, is another indicator just how close we are.
i found this article on rapture ready and its quiet interesting
http://www.raptureready.com/featured/kelley/jack124.html
I agree with that article but I am not sure after reading it if Jack Kelly is modifying his position or not? In prior articles he used the parable of the fig tree to indicate that all would be fulfilled by 2018 (a normal lifespan from the rebirth of the state of Israel). I disagreed with that conclusion because I do not see it all being fulfilled that soon and I also came to the conclusion that Jesus was not saying that Israel represented the fig tree in his illustration.
If so, we still need to determine when the generation that would not pass away actually started. Or has it even started yet? Maybe it will be from the Psalm 83 war? Maybe the generation that would not pass away is just the time from one generation to the next or less than 20 years from seeing the first signs spoken about in Luke 21:10 forward. I try to remain open to the possibilities.
now i’m totally confused. I thought a generation is 70 to 80 years, and one of the prophets said israel would be reborn in one day, and it happend. So maybe 1948 could be the start of the end times generation, the reason why it makes sense is because it says that the birth pangs would get stronger and stronger as the years pass by, and here we are in 2010 and everything is lining up perfectly with turkey turning against israel and all the other nations trying to wipe them off.The middle east is about to explode with the psalm 83 war i believe. On top of all of that, we are getting near with the technology that the Antichrist will use to control everything. But i do agree that we are about 20 years away from the final fulfillment as you stated in one of your articles. So wouldn’t it make sense that the fig tree has something to do with the end timing with all the other stuff thats happening now? I’m convinced that we are very near because of all the prophecies happening at the same time right now.
Read these links if you have not already.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/is-the-parable-of-the-fig-tree-about-the-generation-that-saw-the-rebirth-of-israel.html
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/dangerous-theology-grows-on-fig-trees.html
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/jesus-is-not-coming-to-rule-the-earth-between-2012-2019.html
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/present-indications-are-that-jesus-will-return-2030-2040-ad.html
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/from-2010-until-the-messianic-age-millennial-kingdom-of-yeshua.html
I am not saying that the rebirth of Israel was not a prophetic end time event. Bible prophecy requires Israel to be in the land for fulfillment. What I am saying is that a nation in unbelief that sees no signs could not logically be the generation that Jesus was referring to, when Jesus said, the generation that sees these things would not pass away until all is fulfilled.
Matthew 24:32-39. “32”Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[a]is near, right at the door. 34I tell you the truth, this generation[b] will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away. 36″No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[c] but only the Father. 37As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.”
Instead of me writing explaining how the “fig tree” is the nation Israel click to the link below and read this this post entitled: “The Fig Tree and Israel’s Religious History” http://custance.org/old/time/2ch4.html
Notice if you will two important things. First of all the generation who was to witness the rebirth of the nation Israel was to be alive to witness Christ’s return. He comes right out and tells us that generation will not pass till all these things are fulfilled. Israel became a nation in 1948 and before that generation is gone the Lord would have returned to wipe out the Antichrist and take His seat as King of Kings in Jerusalem.
Two other important things found in these verses. Jesus said we would see all these things in one generation. The generation of 1948 is in fact seeing all the signs taking place at the same time. The third key pointed out by Christ was that same generation would become like Noah’s generation and this generation has in fact fulfilled those words as well.
What does this tell us? Since Israel was born in 1948 and many believe Christ will return by 2050 that would mean that the generation who saw Israel reborn would be 102 years old in 2050. Since Christ points to a specific generation one may ask what is considered a generation?
There are places in the Bible that give hints to how long a generation’s life span was to be. For one Psalm 90:10 says, “The days of our years are threescore years and ten [70 years]; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years [80 years], yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away.” Is it possible that Jesus was showing us the generation he was referring to in Matthew 24 would last 70 or as Psalm 90:10 says maybe 80 years if is stretched out? If this is the case, we are right at the doorway of the seven year tribulation. This is something to think about if your feeling something is wrong with our world. Could it be Jesus is speaking to you via His Holy Spirit showing you things are coming to a close, and encouraging you to come to Him before He removes His Church to safety? I believe with everything in me that this is in fact the case. Listen to what the Holy Spirit is say.
If your going to make the argument that Israel is the fig tree. At least read the arguments and posts I presented in my last comments as to why your speculations on the fig tree parable is probably not correct. Quoting a article does not make it correct either.
since a generation is 70 to 80 years it would make sense that 1948 was the beginning of the end times because” we are seeing all the signs happening right now at the same time, it cant be too far off so i dont know why you are not agreeing i think its common sense.i got this article from frank dimoras site and i think he is right, since both of you are end times preachers i don’t know who to believe anymore.
I do not have the time to keep repeating myself. Read the links in the comments above. A generation does not have to be 70 to 80 years. A generation in the Bible is from a father to his first offspring. If you want to assume it is a lifespan of 70 or 80 years fine but also realize this was written to Jews. So Israel needs to be able to understand that the creation of their state started the countdown if that is the correct interpretation. They still do not believe that today. Also, this could just as well apply to when the Jews took Jerusalem in 1967 so what does that do to your 70 to 80 year theory? It pushes it out to 2037 or 2047.
But like both me and Jack Kelly said, Israel is not the fig tree in this parable. Look up every passage in the Bible that mentions fig tree and you will see that the case for that is very slim. There is more support for the Olive tree.
No all the signs are not all taking place at the same time Yet, Read the links I provided.
Why should you worry about who is correct about this parable anyway? Nobody is correct about everything in Bible prophecy. Are you planning to get a ticket on a certain date? Just live your life and be ready at anytime because the Bible is clear that nobody knows when the Lord is coming for His Church.
Don,
I agree, if I understand your excellent point correctly, that the parable of the fig tree in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse was given by a born Jew (albeit He is God-incarnate) to the Jews.
It is an interpretation that the rebirth of Israel in the land in 1948 began a prophetic ‘end times’ clock. So too, as you correctly point out, could the re-taking by the Jews of the whole of Jerusalem and the Temple Mount be a similar prophetic clock-initiating event. I happen a ascribe to 1948 and a generation of strength interpretation.
But that’s not my main point. I also believe that the fig tree was used by the Lord as a symbolic reference to the spirtual state of Israel. For the most part Israel was spiritually dead, and still is to this day. But the fig tree parable reference goes hand-in-hand in context, in timing and in location to what also occured upon Jesus’ triumphant arrival in Jerusalem. I’m referring to the Matthew 21 and Mark 11 account of Jesus’ cursing of and the withering of the fruitless fig tree on the next day on the way between Bethany and Jerusalem. That was a symbolic cursing of the spiritual state of Israel. Thus the fig tree in this context definitively represents Israel.
Immediately after this cursing of the fig tree Jesus went to the Temple and literally cleaned His Fathers house and kicked the money-changers behinds.
These two events should not be considered in isolation from Jesus reference to both the fig tree and the destruction of the Temple in the Olivet Discourse. I believe the spiritual and prophetic meaning of this is pretty unambiguous. But, that’s just me and what I believe, and place it here for your consideration.
Sean
I agree that the fig tree that Jesus cursed represented Israel but I think it is also a huge leap of logic to make what Jesus said about learning the parable of the fig tree to making a dead Israel a live fig tree coming to life and then making the generation He said would not pass away 80 years from the creation of this spiritually dead State.
It would be much more logical to me that the generation that would not pass would by the one that sees some signs and a spiritual rebirth in Israel. How can the spiritually dead Jews even heed what Jesus said? You yourself believe that the Jews will know that there is a God in Israel after the war of Psalm 83 and the Gog war. So is it not possible that Jesus was saying that the adults observing and comprehending the meaning of these first birth pains would not pass away until all is fulfilled?
Logically if we are going to go with 80 years from 1948 the only people that Jesus could be talking to in Israel would be very old people. I think what we need to ask ourselves is who was Jesus speaking to. The Church? We will not be here to see it all fulfilled. Israel? Yes. But if to Israel then there is a message for some generation in Israel to be learned before the end.
But Hey, I am open to other views, like I said in the post, I do not think we are getting all the picture here. Some pieces of the puzzle seem to me to be shoehorned into the big prophetic picture just to make them fit. The fact there are such differences among prophecy teachers just adds support to what I said.
Don
Your second paragraph above is precisely the point that I was attempting, apparently without success, to make. These things will happen in a single generation, be it 70 or 80 years in duration. The re-birth of spiritual Israel will occur when God pours out His Spirit on them, per Ezekiel 39:29 and Romans 11.
Old people at the end of this ‘last days’ generation, sure there will be some who may have been born in ’48, or some even in ’67… but they are witnesses to these events, not necessarily the spiritually re-awakened Jews. it is the 144,000 Jewish evangelists who will be born-again, heed His Word, and preach to the whole world winning millions of souls. This occurs in the aftermath of the Battle of Gog/Magog, but prior to the Great Tribulation. This is same general time fame as the Two Witnesses in Jerusalem.
Sean,
My point is that the final generation may not even start until the signs that Jesus talked about in Matt 24 and onward begins and the beginnings of sorrows bring a revival of Judaism in Israel first (not Christian belief until the 144,000 go out and convert the people).
It might be that this is the generation that will not pass away until all is fulfilled and not the generation that saw a spiritually dead State appear in the form of dry bones that can spiritual discern nothing. Remember, the first generation that came out of Egypt could not possess the land due to their unbelief. Perhaps the first generation that came out of the world will retain their curse because of their unbelief.
My other point is that a generation passing away does not have to be lifespan it can be from one generation to the next, which today is about 20 years.
By the way, that was the view point of almost all Bible prophecy teachers until they ran out of time. Hal Lindsey in the 1960’s thought a biblical generation was 40 years so he thought it will all be fulfilled by 1988. Van Impe did as well. Then they went to the 1967 date but that did not work out with 40 years so Van Impe changed it to 53 years so the Rapture and the tribulation has to start by 2012 but he is not setting dates? He got the length of a generation by counting the 42 generations from Adam to Jesus and dividing it by Bishop Ushers Chronology. It was a lame way to determine a length of a generation for the future but I point it out to prove my point. Now those that do not see a generation quite like those of the old school are saying it means the generation will not totally die off before all is fulfilled so they started using a normal lifespan of 70 years but now that seems unlikely from 1948 so some like yourself say it will be 80 years by strength. If that passes some again move to the 1967 date and use 70 or 80 years from then. If that does now work people will be saying there are still some born after 1948 and then 1967 still alive and until these all die off they will not give up this subjective interpretation.
Any critical thinker can see we are using subjective speculations on the meaning of one parable to predict end time timelines that have had a long history of failures. Yet we go on rather than even considering the possibility that we might have understood the parable wrong.
Having said that, and without being dogmatic about it, It just could be that Jesus was really talking about the generation that would see the signs of Matt 24:4 and onward, and that the adult generation seeing these things is the generation that will see all fulfilled in their own generation (and not the generation of their children or grand children) In other words it will all happen in a short period of 10 to 20 years.
Don,
One final point and with respect to your first sentence in your reply above (“…the final generation may not even start until the signs that Jesus talked about in Matt 24…”).
Are you aware that the signs given in the Matthew, Mark and Luke Gospel accounts of Jesus’ Olivet Discourse are identical to the opening of the fist 6 Seals per Revelation 6:1-17 and which occur during Daniel’s 7th Week, a/k/a the final 7 years prior to Jesus Second Coming?
Does this not confirm that Daniel’s 70th Week is the terminal period of the generation of which Jesus spoke?
Sean,
That is the second time you asked me on this thread if I am aware that the Olivet Discourse parallels the 6 seals of Revelation. I said I do believe that it does (also see my answer to your item 1 in a comment above)
However, I thought you knew that I think the first seals occur before Daniel’s 70th week and I thought you held that position as well? Maybe it was just Bill Salhus? I know that you do place the Psalm 83 war and the Ezekiel 38 war before the 70th week. These in my opinion are the beginnings of the birth pains and one or both could be within the seals.
Here is my rational why the first seals are before the last week of years. There is no clue at all given in Revelation that God is again dealing with the Jews for the 70th week until the sealing of the 144,000 Jews.
The two witnesses and the 144,000 give the message of the coming kingdom for 42 months. God always sends his prophets before judgment. After their testimony is complete Satan is cast out and the world rejects any idea of a kingdom of Jesus and the Jews and accepts the Antichrist and his Beast kingdom. He has power on earth for 42 months. So the final week of years contains 42 months where God gets out the truth about the coming kingdom of Jesus on earth to all the world followed by 42 months for Satan to deceive all in the world that wish to reject the truth. These will probably be convinced the lie that Jesus is a lessor deity and not God and that Jesus and his forces can be defeated when He comes.
It is my conjecture that the first seals take place before the 70th week through wars of man. These are not God’s judgments on man. It will be a satanically instigated counterfeit tribulation or false birth pain so that when people are expecting some sort of world Christ figure to appear to save the day they will receive the Antichrist. I think the defeat of Islam and its “supposed Antichrist” is all part of the seals wars and the deception.
So I say there will be at least 10.5 years from the first seal until the Return of Jesus. It could be longer. Those that see all this starting to take place might be the generation that Jesus was referring to in the parable.
Don,
Both times I posed that Revelation 6 – Olivet Discourse question I used some really specific terms to express what I believe. I described my belief in the relationshop between the Gospel account and Rev. 6 with the words “identical,” “exact same sequence,” and “precisely identical.” To these specifics you said you “generally agree” and that’s fine.
However, based upon your statement in the second paragraph above I now fully understand why you said you “generally agree” back then.
I do not believe the first 6 seals occur prior to the commencement of Daniel’s 70th Week, because the first seal IS the arrival of the Antichrist, the first Beast, imitating the coming of the conquering Messiah. As I believe, the Antichrist’s arrival cannot occur prior to Daniel’s 70th Week.
The Bride of Christ was Raptured in Revelation 4 verse 1. In Chapter 4 verses 10 and 11 the Bride of Christ, represented by the 24 Elders dressed in white with gold crowns on their heads, are placing their gold crowns at the feet of Jesus everytime the four living creatures give glory, honor and thanks to He on the throne. Again, this occurs prior to Rev. 6 and as Revelation 5 sets up in its narative of the scroll.
Yes, I believe there’s a fairly rapid sequence from Isaiah 17 to Psalm 83, their are nearly simultaneous, and and comes Ezekiel 38/39. The only pause in this period of time is that time required for Israel to recover from Isaiah 17/Psalm 83 as Ezekiel 38:8 declares.
I do not believe there is no clue at all given in Revelation that God is again dealing with the Jews for the 70th week until the sealing of the 144,000 Jews. i do not believe this for a couple of Scripte reasons.
1.) I see God is dealing with the Jews as He directly intervenes and saves them in Ezekiel 38/39 and especially as the grammatical past tense of Ezekiel 39:29 points out He has poured out His Spirit upon them.
2.) God is most certainly dealing with the Jews in Revelation, and he does so with the opening of the 5th Seal, Revelation 6:9-11.
“And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
These souls are not the Bride of Christ. The Bride was Raptured, some as the dead in Christ who are given new spirital bodies in the twinkling of an eye, and the rest were then instantaneously transfigured from living human beings into their spiritual bodies, and into Heaven back in Chapter 4 and they are surrounding the throne in their white robes, they are NOT “under the altar.” I believe these souls per Revelation 6:9-11 are the 144,000 and the Gentile Tribulation saints. These specific verses were referenced by Jesus in the Olivet Discourse, as per the specific texts of Matthew 24:9-10 and Mark 13:9-13 and Luke 21:12-19. They are identified in detail in Revelation 7, and just prior to the opening of the 7th Seal, and the 7 Trumpets in Revelation 8.
Sean, You could be correct but I see views being offered here that are suppositions or speculations that read into what the scriptures actually say.
Lets me explain:
You say the rider on the white horse of the first seal is dogmatically the Antichrist. It very well may be the future Antichrist but some scholars would certainly disagree with you. The scriptures do not say that he is the Beast and a good argument can be made that there is no actual Beast/Antichrist figure until the last 42 months. Only after the Beast ascends out of the pit and kills the two prophets does he even become the Beast/Antichrist and that happens in the middle of the last week of years. It could be possible that the rider on the white horse is just a great world leader that comes before the Antichrist. If all the riders on the four horsemen are the Antichrist how did he get all this power from Satan before it was even given to Him after the seventh seal?
Even supposing that it is the future Antichrist like we both think it is, that does not mean that the first seals were not before the last seven years.
Again dogmatically you say the bride of Christ was taken out in Rev 4;1. That again is subjective and good scholars would disagree. The Rapture could have occurred before or after John was taken up. Thinking that John going up to heaven represents the Church going to heaven is worth contemplation and consideration but we do not know that for sure. Even if the Rapture occurs when you say it does, it still does not prove that puts us in the final week of years. There could be a gap. Nor does it prove that all the seals are opened within the final seven years.
Further Sean, you assume the 24 elders are the Church but I argue against that view in my Revelation Commentary. That really is a whole other argument so I will be brief. I do not think John would miss himself if he were one of the 24 elders nor would he be weeping when there was no one to open the scroll. As one of the of the 24 elders he would know what the other elders knew, he would not need one of his own to tell him. Also a reading of the text about what the elders say is a bit different between Greek manuscripts The manuscript the King James uses says “us”.
This is from the KJ
The manuscript the ASV uses says “they”
Notice the difference between this version and the King James. The King James indicates that the twenty-four elders were including themselves in the redeemed men and them being made kings and priests. However, the American Standard says they are singing about the redeemed, not about themselves. In any case, this passage is questionable enough that it should not be used to build the case that the twenty-four elders are redeemed men as some who use only the King James translation do.
Again, In the King James it say He redeemed us from men and in the ASV it says “they” (it was not including themselves at all).
One more brief point on this. Most with your view make the 24 elders the 12 apostles and the 12 patriarchs but there is no reason to believe that most of the 12 patriarchs deserve to be sitting on a throne ruling over the faithful Church.
It could be that these 24 elders are celestial elders that were with the Lord before the earth was created. Tim Lahaye and others see it that way. I think they are the heavenly counsel and their thrones were also seen in the OT. So I cannot build a strong case from this that the Church has to be in Heaven at Rev 4:1 and it does not disprove that the first seals are prior to the last seven years in any case.
Lets go on to the fifth seal because you believe that they are Jews.
Here is all that is said about them
Their fellow servants and brethren were killed sometime prior. That sounds like the Martyrs of the Church throughout the ages to me not just the 144,000.
In spite of what I think, could this be just about the 144,000 that are sealed after the sixth seal? You would have to put the fifth seal before the sixth seal and you must also assume that those that are sealed are killed but there is no indication from scripture that they are killed other than they are seen in Heaven with Jesus later. Even if they are killed remember they were sealed for the purpose of not being harmed so that they could give out their message. So they will not be killed by men until that purpose is completed way into the trumpet judgments. It is very likely that their mission will not be completed until around the time the testimony of the two prophets are also completed and that is at the middle of the seven year point.
So what it comes down to, is that things can be very clear to anyone if one interprets end time events from one’s own perspective and theories but someone else can look at the very same same passages and come up with an entirely different theory. Again, that is why no two Bible prophecy teachers agree on everything. In fact they disagree with quite a lot. Which leads me back to the blog. Some things in Bible prophecy are not as clear as some Bible prophecy teachers make it out to be and I do not have it all figured out either.
Don,
Don,
Yes, I am completely dogmatic about the rider on the white horse, the first of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, being none other than the Antichrist and the other three being what he brings to the earth. I have given specific reason from Scripture why I believe this rider is the Antichrist. I really do not care what other scholars might say on this issue which stands opposed to this view because I am convicted by the Spirit on this, and that means that I believe it without question and accept it in the same manner as I accept the fact of my eternal salvation by the Blood of the Lamb. I believe dogmatically about this because the Revelation of Jesus Christ came directly from God the Father, to Christ, to John on Patmos. We all know the God-given warning about taking away or adding to the text of the Revelation of Jesus Christ.
You’ll never see me “going here” or “going there” with the interpretation provided by the Holy Spirit, much less that concocted in the minds of some men as “logical.” Never, ever. I am firmly on one side of the eschatological fence. Comitted. Convicted. Confirmed.
Also, I believe the Antichrist confirms the “covenant among many” on DAY ONE of Daniel’s 70th Week. I am also dogmatic about this because it is the Word of God delivered to Daniel via the angel Gabriel.
Sean,
I know you are very dogmatic and I agree that the rider on the white horse is most likely the future Beast/Antichrist. But nothing in this comment answers the points that I brought up in mine – that the first seals could be opened prior to the start of the final seven years.
By the way, other men who thought they were just as inspired by the Holy Spirit as you have had many things wrong on Bible prophecy and theology. But you have to live with your own dogmatism. So we will leave it there.
I will just go back to the post topic. There is way too much disagreement among Bible prophecy teachers so a lot is obviously subjective. If one reads all the top 100 Bible prophecy experts one would come away totally confused about the sequence of end time events. So who really has it all figured out? I guess that just depends on who you want to believe.
The First book on Bible prophecy that I read almost forty years ago had it all correct. Then I read the second book….the third book…the one hundredth book but with each book things get less clear and I find I need to be less dogmatic. I guess that is my problem. Anyone else having problems understanding how events all works out, out there?
Don,
Nothing in my comment addressed the point about the seals being opened prior to Daniel’s 70th Week because I answered that item in my previous comment.
I wrote “I do not believe the first 6 seals occur prior to the commencement of Daniel’s 70th Week, because the first seal IS the arrival of the Antichrist, the first Beast, imitating the coming of the conquering Messiah. As I believe, the Antichrist’s arrival cannot occur prior to Daniel’s 70th Week.”
This rider on the first white horse in Rev. 6 is the opening to Daniel’s 70th Week which is closed upon Jesus’s arrival on a white horse in Rev. 19 at the end of that week. The first rider goes out conquering and to conquer and brings global destruction, enslavement, death disease and devastation. Jesus, called the “Word of God,” and “Faithful and True” arrives on his white horse bring Divine retribution for sin, wages war with justice, bringing peace and salvation as King of kings and Lord of lords. There is no ambiguity within the context of Bible prophecy regarding the end of this present age that the first rider is the Antichrist.
Regarding the other men who got things wrong on Bible prophecy I will say this. Since the Word of God is perfect and true, then those men applied some other element, be it their own logic or whatever, it was something extraneous to what the Word of God has said and whatever that was it did not come to them via the Holy Spirit. Hence they erred.
Sean,
Even believing as we both do that the rider of the while horse is the future Beast/Antichrist why can’t he appear on the white horse 3.5 years before he signs the 7 year covenant? He first has to get into power as a world leader or he would not be in any position to confirm a covenant with the many. Sure he can be a conquering Messiah figure but why limit him in that capacity to just 42 months?
The only reason to think that, is the seven year period in Daniel but like I already said he already is a great world leader at the start of the seven years. So why can’t he be riding those horses for 7 years and then claim to be God when the world is expecting the second coming seven years after the end of the Gog war?
Why not make the Gog war and the aftermaths of this war seal 2, 3 and 4? Can there be any greater war in the time of the seals other than the Gog war? I know of none written about. So if you make the Gog war occur before the final seven years as I know you do, why not also include the seals that might describe such a war? We cannot put the wars mentioned after the 6th seal and the Day of the Lord in these earlier positions so where is the war of seal 2 through 4 described in the OT?
On your last point, we all error and that is why no two Bible prophecy teachers agree on everything. I know of none. The world of God is perfect but we are not and God does not necessarily need to tell us details that we do not need to know. There are just too many possible subjective interpretations of prophetic scriptures for anyone to get it all correct. The Holy Spirit in us is a down payment and a comforter but while in our bodies of flesh we still see things dimly. Nobody has all wisdom and understanding to get all meanings of God’s word correct.
Don,
Power is only given to the Antichrist (the man) to do things for a period of 42 months. At that time he suffers a mortal wound (is assassinated?) and his dead body is re-animated in a false resurrection (still imitating Christ)and indwelt by Apollyon/Abaddon for the final 42 months. Their is nothing in Bible prophecy which even hints that Antichrist does anything prophetically significant prior to Daniel’s 70th Week.
Daniel 11:21-22 says his arrival will be (Antiochus IV Epiphanes being the template) thus: “And in his place shall arise a vile person, to whom they will not give the honor of royalty; but he shall come in peaceably, and seize the kingdom by intrigue. With the force of a flood they shall be swept away from before him and be broken, and also the prince of the covenant.”
And then watch what happens… Daniel 11:23-24 begins with a reference to the “covenant among many” as “after the league is made with him…” the deceitfulness and peaceable acquisition of great power is made clear:
“And after the league is made with him he shall act deceitfully, for he shall come up and become strong with a small number of people. He shall enter peaceably, even into the richest places of the province; and he shall do what his fathers have not done, nor his forefathers: he shall disperse among them the plunder, spoil, and riches; and he shall devise his plans against the strongholds, but only for a time.”
The concluding verses of Daniel 11 complete the prophetic picture right up to the Abomination of Desolation and after to the end of the Great Tribulation.
The Battle of Gog/Magog occurs prior to the rise of the Antichrist. (In fact, I believe that power vacuum and geopolitical instability facilitates his rise by deceit and intrigue in the European/Mediterranean revived Roman Empire.) Israel at this time is also superpower, all of her enemies have been destroyed, her territories are well in excess of what we see today. Soon thereafter the “covenant among many (nations)” is raised up (Daniel’s 70th Week commences). This covenant is a pact, a deceitful, temporary agreement among many of the formerly belligerent nations at war that stabilizes the the region, and the world at-large, until it is abbrogated with specific respect to Israel by Antichrist. This pact is “confirmed by many” in the aftermath of significant WMD warfare that very likely the whole world has tasted to one degree or another.
And, as I stated before, prophecy tells us this is where Seal 1 is opened, followed by the other Seals. This is the Tribulation, and as Jesus said in the Olivet Discourse, “And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of sorrows.”
Yes, the first 42 months of the Tribulation are just the beginning of sorrows.
Revelation 11:7 says the two prophets are killed in the middle of the week of years and power is given to the Beast for 42 months. There is a prior 42 month period in this week but it says nothing about the Antichrist having power in that period and nothing would limit him to only the 42 months of the first half of the week of years. The Bible does not say he has power in the first half because there is no Beast in the first half of the week. Believing that he is the prince of Daniel does not give good cause to limit him to just 42 months of limited power before he is given 42 months of satanic power. You say scripture does not even hint that this figure does not do anything significant before this seven years? Scripture says he will be a prince and that he will be in a position to confirm the covenant with many. So obviously scripture is hinting that he is a world or regional leader before he even confirms the seven year covenant. Also, in my opinion the seals hint that he does something significant prior to Daniel’s seventy week for all the reasons I stated on this post.
You can use history as a template or type but you cannot use history as a fulfillment of past prophecy. The vile person was Antiochus Epiphanes. I guess if you want to use your line of reasoning and make it a duel reference the Antichrist has a lot of defeats ahead of him as described in the verses after Daniel 11:22. In fact, you could even say the Antichrist spirit has been riding that white horse all through time. So a real live person could mount it again anytime before the end not just for 7 years. By the way, Antiochus Epiphanes did not pretend to be the Messiah so the idea of him riding in as a conquering Messiah to the Jews fails the foreshadow test.
Your view of the Gog war aftermath is about the way I see it but I am not sure about the greatly expanded Israel theory for reasons already expressed in this post.
Saying that prophecy tells us that the first seal is opened when the prince in Daniel signs the seven year covenant is still debatable as far as I am concerned. That does not mean that view is wrong.
Apart from the text of Daniel cited above concerning, I’ll use the text of the 1 John 2:18 to support my contention that the Bible does not reference the man who will be Antichrist prior to Daniel’s 70th Week. Not the “spirit of the antichrist,” but the man who will be the Antichrist.
1 John 2:18
Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
Here the Apostle John tells us that the Antichrist appears at “the last hour.” John is the only writer to refer to him as the Antichrist.
Then we have Paul who refers to him in 2 Thessalonians 2:3-4 as “the man of sin” and “son of perdition.” His appearance is made just after or in near proximity to when the great apostasy has been occuring on the earth. This is a time of great rebellion against God, and then he is revealed to the whole world.
However, a disbelieving world in aspostasy would not believe anything without definitive signs, so he is given the power to do miraculous things for 42 months so that the disbeliving world would believe a lie. God allows this, in fact, He causes it so the the disbelieving world will believe the deceptions and The Lie.
The great apostasy cannot occur while the Bride of Christ and the Holy Spirit are here. But the 144,000 are and so are the Gentile tribulation saints who reject his mark, his false prophet and his bogus miracles. They are martyred for this and become the souls under the altar in Heaven.
You have to trust me here because I’ve studied this topic for years and in very great detail. Please show me where Antiochus IV Epiphanes fulfilled the prophecy found in Daniel 11:29-45?
Is this text a fulfillment of past prophecy? No, obviously it never occured before and therefore it is future.
Therefore, the intertwined template within the text of Daniel concerning the direct links through the Macedonian kings from Alexander the Great, to General Seleucus (a/k/a Seleucus I Nicator), to Antiochus I Soter, Antiochus II Theos, Seleucus II Callinicus, Seleucus III Caranus, Antiochus III the Great, Seleucus IV Philopator to the usurper Antiochus IV Epiphanes is extremely valid as an eschatological template or tool concerning Bible prophecy about the future.
Sean,
I have said that the Antichrist is not the Beast/Antichrist until the last 3 1/2 years. So of course he comes in the last hour after He than hinders is taken out of the way. That does not mean the person that becomes the Antichrist does not become a world leader before that time. Obviously he is a world leader or he would not be confirming a covenant with the many for seven years.
You say the 144,000 are the martyrs of the fifth seal but the 144,000 do not even get sealed until after the sixth seal and I see no reason they would be under the altar resting. It seems to me that there is a latter day persecution prior to the 70th week. If it were occurring in the time of the two prophets in the first half of the week of years it seems to me that since they can call down judgment as often as they wish they could call down judgment on those carrying out persecutions.
I was not saying that Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilled the prophecy found in Daniel 11:29-45. I was really speaking of “known” historical events following the vile person. Where it is historical and where it is still future depends upon who you read. I will admit that you have a better handle on these passages than me. Some writers on Daniel even assign prior versus to the future Antichrist.
Which bring me back to one of my main points. Bible prophecy teachers have so many differences in opinions that their books should come with a disclaimer.
Don,
In all this discussion we’ve forgotten to address the one physical item which is key to the timing element of this prophecy and ‘end times’ subject matter as a whole.
The Temple on Mount Moriah.
A real-world, physical 3rd Temple has to be constructed for the Abomination of Desolation to occur in the Holy Place, and for the sacrfice and other Temple worship offerings to be halted by his command in the middle of Daniel’s 70th Week.
Daniel 9:27
There is no Temple mentioned in Isaiah 17, Psalm 83 or Ezekiel 38/39. The Temple is discussed from Ezekiel 40 and onward. This places the Temple after the Battle of Gog/Magog, and yet both before and then during Daniel’s 70th Week. The physical size of the 3rd temple requires a certain amoung of time to obtain the specific raw materials and then construct to exact specifications. (The existence of Islamic structures on the Mount is finite due to the coming wars.)
The man who will be Antichrist is certainly present during this preceeding time. (He’s very probably alive right now) His “covenant among many” is in effect fully for the first 1/2 of Daniel’s 70th Week up until he unilaterally abrogates it.
His arrival per Daniel 7:7-8
“After this I saw in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, exceedingly strong. It had huge iron teeth; it was devouring, breaking in pieces, and trampling the residue with its feet. It was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. I was considering the horns, and there was another horn, a little one, coming up among them, before whom three of the first horns were plucked out by the roots. And there, in this horn, were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking pompous words.”
In Daniel 7 verse 8 he arises as a little horn in the midst of the 10, he is a king or leader of 1 of the 10 nations, and he usurps, absorbs or otherwise removes three other kings of the original 10. On his arrival he is “speaking pompous words” which in the original Aramaic words used by Daniel are “m?lal rabrab” (to speak great).
Then in Daniel 7 verses 9 and 10 we’re cut away to a scene taking place in Heaven upon this little horn’s arrival. The Ancient of Days is seated on His throne with millions attending Him. At this point “the judgment was set and the books were opened.”
In verse 11 he goes from being a horn to a beast who is slain, his body burned and given to the burning flame. The point is – his judgment is set upon his arrival by God.
Sean,
I generally agree with what you said except for one major point. All the futurist Bible prophecy scholars that I have read make Ezekiel chapter 40 through 48 occurring in the millennium and the Temple described is too large to fit on the present Temple mount.
The 3rd Temple that the Jews already have the plans to build is much smaller than the millennial temple. So is there a third and then a fourth Temple or does the whole temple mount landscape change to give the room to expand the 3rd temple to become the millennial temple? I know some think there will be a 4th Temple built north of the area because of land divisions and locations described in those chapters. So if a 4th Temple turns out to be the case, what happens to the 3rd Temple? Got me.
Even though I think the Gog war is before the tribulation. Good Bible prophecy scholars disagree. They do not see Ezekiel 40 – 48 supporting the timing of the Gog war because these chapters describe events after the tribulation.
Don,
See Ezekiel 38:18-20 for the resolving of the one major point you disagree with.
The topography of what we know today in Israel will cease to exist. Apparently the scholars you’re referencing have completely ingored this critical prophetic point.
Sean,
I believe the topography of the whole world will change more than most anyone can even imagine in the end times.
I think I see what your saying. You believe the huge millennial temple is built in the tribulation but after the Gog war. That is possible even though most Bible prophecy teachers see four temples. However, that is because many of them see the Gog war occurring in the tribulation. Once again we are reminded of the differences of views.
Somebody better inform the Temple Mount Faithful Org. that the temple that they have plans to build are way to small. Maybe Elijah will, but there goes the Temple being built on the existing mount north of the Dome of the Rock theory. I guess they could expand later. I also have to wonder how such a temple can survive the earthquake of Rev 16.
Don,
Yes, I agree. And since the prophecy of Daniel tells us that the 3rd Temple will be constructed and standing at the 3.5 year mark, with all the attendant priestly services, and the Holy Place within the Temple for him to stand up his image… then I would surmiose that it’s all probably concurrent with the full-time employment of Jews burying the Gog Confederation dead (in Jordan) for 7 months and the 7-year long buring of weapons for fuel in the era after the attempted invasion.
Also, the Valley of the Passengers (re-named the Valley of Hamon Gog) east of the Dead Sea will still exist per Ez. 39:11 as this is where the burying of the dead troops will take place. This burial ground will obstruct travelers who may well be traveling eastward toward the new city of Hamonah.
I don’t know about Brad Watson’s claim of being the Christ, but I agree that we’ve seen the prophesies fulfilled of the “destruction of Babylon” being the War In Iraq and Rev 8:8 being fulfilled by the BP Gulf Oil Disaster! As far as the United States Dollar being the “mark of the Beast that you must have to buy or sell with”, well, it does have 6 letters in each word and you definitely can’t buy or sell without it here in the US, and it has been used as the primary world currency since 1945 or earlier. Did you give Brad the chance to give rebuttal to your response or have you banned him from your blog? If he’s not the Christ, he would prove that through his arguments, right? He’s apparently a liberal democrat, is that why you easily dismiss him? Wasn’t Jesus the biggest liberal in history?
I do not recall banning Brad but anyone who thinks that he even could be the Christ is not in Christ themselves. So you need to find out how you can get saved in Christ and if you do I am sure you will think differently. Certainly I am not going to let Brad or anyone else to continue to post their insanity here.
Any Bible prophecy fulfillment has to fulfill the passages as written. None of what you or Brad mentioned in anyway does that.
Its amazing that you figured out a false Christ would be a liberal democrat. 😆
I dismiss what he said and what you think because it is obviously nothing but nonsense. In Brads case he is either insane or he just came here as a prankster. In your case, you are not a Christian and have no understanding about Bible prophecy.
Jesus conserved everything Father God told Him and gave Him. The term Liberal suggests human progression by man’s own efforts but humans digressed from God’s law so Jesus came to fulfill the law for us so that we can be saved. That does not make him liberal. It makes Him loving and merciful.
Don says: June 27, 2010 at 8:43 pm
Hi Don
I am nearly 69 and like you, find the more I read of end time events the less I know.
It is wonderful to ‘know’ with certainty: i.e. I not only ‘believe’ Jesus is my Saviour I ‘know’ he is, but in regards to the sequence of end time events I have my ‘beliefs’ but cannot say I ‘know’ them to be true.
Don, if you ever find a book that explains the sequence of events to your satisfaction, please let me know, but I feel it won’t be in my lifetime.
Love your patience
Brian
Don, I know you wrote this article 8 months ago but I can’t help but think about the amazing statement you made above “Israel cannot be living in security without some significant change in thinking in the entire Middle East.” in light of the recent, major changes occurring in the Arab world right now. It seems it is possible that there could be a real change in thinking toward peace regarding Israel with the fall of Egpyt, Tunisia and others. Or I guess, if radicals take over it could be a real opportunity for a uniting against Israel that could not have happened before. Plus, if there is real peace between the Arab countries and Israel what would that mean as far as Psalm 83? I was just thinking that the recent occurences have to have a significant part in prophecy. I guess only time will tell but do you have any thoughts as to which way you think things will go?
Jon,
I think Egypt will become a Islamic military dictatorship or remain a military dictatorship after the facade of democratic elections. The vast Majority of Arab people want to cut off Israel from being a nation right now, so any change of governments is not going to change that fact.
Actually, the Psalm 83 war could happen at any time because we really do not need all the Arab nations to turn to an Islamic form of government or something else (democracy is really impossible), because if a war should start against any of them the rest will be forced to join the war against Israel anyway no matter their system of government.
The only positive thing that I think might come of this is that it might give the people in Iran a model and the courage to overthrow their own theocracy and dictatorship. If that happens it could be the very reason why Iran is not mentioned in the Psalm 83 war.
I see that the Libyan beacon of liberty, Qaddafi, is rallying Palestinians to revolt against Israel. I don’t see Libya in the Psalm 83 war.
Don, do you think Libya will be involved or just acting as “cheerleader” to keep the heat off of Qaddafi?
Libya won’t be in the Psalm 83 war. They would have a problem getting forces there. Besides, Qaddafi is more interested in being the head of Africa. Libya will be involved in the Psalm 83 war.
An Infantada is being planned for May 15. All Arabs are asked to march on Israel on that date – plus, for extra interest, a flotilla is also planned.
I wonder if the stage is being set for the War of Psalm 83.
It will be interesting to see what position the Obama Administration takes.
It won’t be significant, there is no way that Jordan is going to allow a large demonstration or allow Arabs of other nations to pass through their nation. When Iran is somehow removed from the picture it might be time for Psalm 83.
Another thought – I wonder if the Obama Administration will be forced to take a pro-Palestinian position and thus leave Israel without friends and alienate many Democratic leaning Jews.
Lets see…
May 15th, Intifada…May 21st, Harold Campings Rapture…yeah, Mid-May is booked !
Obama said: Too many tears have been shed. Too much blood has been shed. All of us have a responsibility to work for the day when the mothers of Israelis and Palestinians can see their children grow up without fear; when the Holy Land of the three great faiths is the place of peace that God intended it to be; when Jerusalem is a secure and lasting home for Jews and Christians and Muslims, and a place for all of the children of Abraham to mingle peacefully together as in the story of Isra as in the story of Isra, when Moses, Jesus, and Mohammed, peace be upon them, joined in prayer.
Bob, I thought Obama was already pro Palestinian.
I hate to bust anyone’s fly away balloons but people need to keep in mind that America is not the world. What is mentioned in Bible prophecy is not going to all suddenly come about just because America declines. America is not in Bible prophecy became by the time end time prophecy plays out we are no longer the world superpower. When the end really comes, Christians will see little need to sift through scripture to try to support end time speculations.
Well, it appears we have now seen Libya largely removed from the scene right before our eyes.
Isiah 17:1 seems to be increasingly coming into focus.
Bob ,
I think it remains to be seen how things in Libya turn out , I expect Libya to become an Islamic State. Syria is also a big question mark to me, it will get really interesting if
Assad is forced from power. My view is NATO or the U.S. had no business getting involved in
Libya. When bush took out Saddam did Iraq become stable , I see no stability there and I think
Libya and maybe Syria will turn out the same way. One thing that unites Muslims is hatred of
Israel. Maybe God will use Israel to destroy Islam , I hope so.
Don,
Admittedly, I am new to this blog and have not read all 130,000 blog posts, but I would like to just state one thought I have regarding this topic if I may. I see you have the Psalm 83 war as the next event on your timeline. It may be, but I have my doubts and here is my thinking:
1. This whole Syria/Iran situation is a world problem, not just an Israel problem. I believe what Iran does affects Europe and USA too, so they have skin in the game.
2. I foresee down the road a European alliance (USA too?) with Israel to keep the latter from using their nukes.
3. This should restrain Iran a bit and for a time
4. Thus, with Israel secure in this alliance, the requirements for the Ezekiel War are met
5. With hook in mouth, Russia plus fringe Muslim countries get bold
6. But God has the final say on this matter
7. World now processing what just happened gives Israel time to bury weapons and now no one, ESP Iran wants to get into a war with Israel…..for the time being
8, Rapture emboldens A/C to make his move
9.First Seal- here comes A/C to affirm covenant and Daniel’s 70th week begins
10.Surrounding Arab nations can no longer stand this Jewish love being shown and get hostile
11. Seals 2-4: war over 1/4 of land with Damascus getting nuked
12. Abomination of Desolation coming up shortly- you know the rest.
What do you think?
Paul
Paul,
There are only about 1100 blog posts, now, the comments are over 13,000.
Like most thinking people my views change over time. I am not sure there is a future Psalm 83 war because there are a lot of other explanations from very gifted people. Some think the Psalm is song in prayer and not a literal prophecy. Some think the war happened in the distant past. Some think the war happened in 1948 or 1967. Some think the war has been ongoing since 1948. Some think the war is future but pretrib. Some think the war is future but in the trib. There even could be other views. So I can’t be dogmatic about the Psalm 83 war. It is in my timeline because at the time I was influenced by Bill Salus view that explains why the Arab nations near Israel are not mentioned in the Ezekiel Gog war. Basically, Salus teaches a greatly expanded Israel that takes over these areas. I have some difficulties with that view because in his scenario it seems the land promises are fulfilled before Israel accepts the Messiah only to be taken away when Israel has to flee from the Beast. These are difficult concepts to accept.
As for your timeline, your conjecture is as good as the next. I see it happening much like that. I think Israel will join NATO and get security that way and that is pretty much what your saying.
What you do not explain is what has happened to the nearby Arab nations. They are not listed in the Ezekiel Gog war. I think there has to be some kind of realignment in the Middle East first. I think there will be a revived Roman Empire that will control pretty much the same area as in the time of Jesus on earth. Now, that certainly would give Israel security if Israel is a member in it (with the “many” of Daniel), and it explains why the Arab nations lose national identity that has really only existed since World War I. For all this to come about there probably has to be a Sunni Shiite war and a world war with NATO first. Therefore, even through we are not as close as some think to the start of last seven years, we are in for some significant Kingdom against Kingdom action in the next few years.
“What you do not explain is what has happened to the nearby Arab nations.”
__________
Don,
Thanks for your rebuttal to my post. To add more details on the above comment you made that I pasted above here, I guess I see the nearby nations somewhat mollified because with Israel’s protection in NATO or EU or whatever alliance is in power in Europe, some agreement will be worked out to appease them (nearby Muslim nations) for the time being.
The world does NOT want to see Israel or Iran using their nukes, so an agreement will be hammered out (UN, NATO, or whatever alliance) for the interests of the whole world that pleases both Israel and the near Arab countries.
Obviously, these near countries will not have the “hook” put into them, so they don’t go away during the Ezekiel War but things pretty much remain status quo.
Sidebar: I mentioned Damascus being nuked which brings about the famine and destruction Seals 2-4 describe in the 70th week, but am not dogmatic about this timing. I probably believe this more because “everyone” seems to say this rather than me fully being convinced in my own mind. Plus, it did make sense so why wrack my brain anymore than I have to.
Don,
Based on what is happening now with Ukraine I searched out this blog you wrote. It seems to me Putin could be the Prince of Rosh referenced in Ezek. 38:2. Do you think, Putin’s actions could have the result of moving the EU into a tighter alliance which could then actually create a time of peace for Isreal and a set up for the Ezek. 38 war? I know what is happening in Ukraine appears to be an amazing movement forward of end time prophecy before us, or am I really off base? Thank you for your level headed guidance through these incredible times.
Hi Jon,
I thought the old Soviet Union and those aligned with them would fulfill the prophecy. Now I think Putin will form a new union and we will have very much the same thing. I recently wrote about how this might take place and how Putin could provide security for Israel in my last monthly perspectives newsletter. I will quote that part below. I realize that this conjecture creates other problems not easily resolved but hopefully it answers your question.