I guess nobody is going to talk about this raid so I guess I will. I am no fan of cults but folks this used to be America where people are presumed innocent until proven guilty and where you do not put over one thousand peoples lives in danger over some anonymous phone call of wife abuse.
So am I really to believe that this well coordinated attack by State Rangers, Federal Rangers and polices forces of six counties all came together into a swat like raid based on one wife abuse call? Give me a break!
This plan obviously was already in place and they were just looking for an excuse to carry out the raid. Up to the point of this writing they have not even come up with the 16 year old that will admit to making the call so who knows if the pretense was even legit.
Had there been any armed resistance at all hundreds could have died including children. Did the government learn nothing from Waco or is it that they just do not care?
Now hundreds of children have been taken from their mothers and are forcefully being put in foster homes not based on any evidence but based on what the government wants to believe. There may have been child abuse but if there was get the evidence legally. The ends do not justify the means unless we now believe in communism.
I see little difference between this and what happens in the worst of police states. You might think this has little to do with you until the government passes hate speach laws and gets some anonymous call that someone heard hate speech at your church and then they raid your Sunday school and take your kids away from you. Or perhaps a judge will rule on a a law like in California where you cannot home school, or who knows what else? They just might not like your looks.
Americans you had better reign in your police forces or you can kiss any freedoms goodbye in this nation.
This is probably not going to have a nice ending. I think it is just the start of something.
SAN ANGELO, Texas — Police wore body armor, sported automatic weapons and were backed by an armored personnel carrier for a raid on a West Texas polygamist retreat, photos and video released Tuesday show.
Four still photos and a slice of video were released to The Associated Press by Rod Parker, spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which owns the raided Yearning for Zion Ranch near San Angelo in Eldorado.
Sect members took the photos and video during the first few days of a seven-day raid that involved police agencies from six counties, the Texas Rangers, the state highway patrol and wildlife officers.
Woohoo, I’m impressed! By their idiocy. I obviously don’t agree with polygamy but these children are fortunate enough to have a home and mother and a father to raise them. How many kids can say that these days. How many of those monogamous fathers and mothers actually raise and look after their children themselves? And how long do their marriages last? That is, if they marry at all. So rather than doing something about that they pretend to be the moral crusaders fighting polygamy while actually they’re only showing just how much they hate family and parental authority. Sure, like those polygamists were a major threat to the United States. Drugs, abortion, homosex and unconstitutionally big goverment are. But they all seem to be suffering from acute hypocritis. Or they’re on crack. Maybe both.
They are taking the kids from there mothers and putting them in foster homes. More abuse of kids goes on in foster homes than any place I can think of. Most foster parents are in it for the money. Some are pedophiles.
However, the real point is that they have no legal grounds to do what they are doing. What it comes down to is they did not like the cult having the freedom to do what they thought was wrong so they went in without sufficient proof just because they had the power and the guns to do so.
If they had a complaint against someone why did they not walk into the compound like normal people and talk to the leaders instead of putting the life of hundreds of people in danger with a swat raid?
How does a phone complaint give them the right to remove people off of private property and go on a fishing exposition to try to find something illegal to just trump up a case after the fact? Meanwhile, they take the women’s kids and terrorize them by making them live with strangers?
This is an action by government control freaks gone nuts.
Not only are they nuts and childish, they are dangerous fools as well. It’s always striking how the guardians of the law are also best at creatively breaking the law. In the meantime the Salafist imams of the religion of peace in America can keep calling upon the believers to wage Jihad against the infidels every Friday in their mosque built by the Saudi allies, calling Jews pigs and monkeys, and funding terrorist organisations. Surely no one is going to send an army to their doors! They probably said to themselves let’s have some fun pestering those dumb Mormons instead. I bet those swat guys had a good time playing soldier in the Texan Jihadist-free desert.
Not only that, many Muslims are doing the same thing this cult is doing and more. Some have several wives and they also take young girls for wives. Will the government even have the guts say anything about their practice, yet do anything?
I am still waiting for the government to raid Muslim compounds around the country where they are not only doing what this cult is doing but where they are also teaching people how to destroy America.
I guess its easier for the control freaks to pick politically correct soft targets rather then the places that are grave dangers to our nation..
Yup, exactly my point. Frankly I don’t think government should stick their noses in any religion but they do have the responsibility to act when a religion or basically any type of organization or ideology poses a direct threat to other citizen’s life and freedom or that of the nation (and Constitution) at large , while at the same time not forgetting the basic principle of presumed innocence which must protect people from being convicted unjustly.
You make a lot of good points, but at least some of the crazy things that go on in these demonic cults is being exposed. All the women from the group that have been interviewed on TV seem like brainwashed zombies. Every time Shepherd Smith on Fox News mentions this cult, he states that of course it has no connection to the Mormon Church. Where does he think the evil doctrines of the FLDS come from?
Brainwashing is what cults do but it is not up to government to free people from cults. If they did you would ultimately end up with a state religion.
In fact, government has been a hindrance to freeing people from these cults because they often arrest those hired by families to rescue and deprogram those caught in cults.
Islam is the biggest demonic cult on the earth but our government goes out of its way to support it.
This sect of Mormonism believes that the Mormon Church departed from the true teachings by changing their original doctrine to comply to Federal laws and to make it more mainstream. That certainly was done.
The news programs and government are carefully not to identify large cults as cults because they would not want to deal with the consequences. It is much easier to single out small religious fringe cults like here and Waco. But, I remind people that a Christian discernment ministry was just driven out of Canada for just telling the truth about other religions and under our next administration those same laws will certainly be put in place and enforced in the USA.
Yes, that’s how I think about it as well. I wrote from a political or governmental point of view but of course that doesn’t take away the fact that it is indeed a cult and therefore it brainwashes people. I don’t know the exact laws regarding polygamy in the U.S. or the state of Texas. In principle I think polygamy should not be tolerated. However, how did it get so far in the first place? As far as I know polygamy is not allowed in the United States yet you have polygamist “retreats” in the desert. Seems like the laws were not enforced in the first place. On the other hand, how does polygamy differ much from the lifestyles led by so many people these days? How many Americans have premarital sex? How many American teens have been infected with sexually transmitted diseases? How many have abortions? How many broken families exist due to extramarital sex, feminism and the family unfriendly working place? Of course government is involved in creating much of these problems. And the same is true for almost any other Western country.
It is the duty of believers to reach out to these lost people, whether they are Muslims, atheists or members of some Mormon cult doesn’t matter. When government gets involved in these matters, things will eventually go wrong. Government is there to punish those who infringe on the individual rights and freedom of others, and to maintain order and morality in society within the framework provided by the constitution.
I agree that the ‘suit-up’ of these law enforcement officials may have been a bit much, and that this is a nation of religious freedom. But you know what, history has proven repeatedly that settings and situations like those of the camp in Eldarado don’t ever work out great. Yes, I’m thinking of Jim Jones, Branch Davidians and every other cult under the planet (Scientology included). No one may be physically or sexually abused, but how much do you want to bet plenty are abused mentally and spiritually every day?
When you give one person power and unlimited control…and they have seclusion and no one to really answer to, things can get out of control. Imagine how much more extreme this could be when one believes oneself to be a prophet, as Warren Jeffs did…and those who followed him.
You really think this is all conspiracy? And there is no real teen girl who was forced to have sex with an older man? That’s possible. But I believe that bit about someone ratting about the ‘sex bed’ found in the temple. You don’t have to think too hard about pedophiles in the church. You don’t have to think too hard about men taking advantage of position and power (yes, women do it too, but who do you hear about using that power for sexual ‘exploits’ more…?). There are children in that compound (or were). The government’s obligation is to make sure they are safe. Who protects the rights of the children?
I don’t care how the authorities were tipped off or if they made it all up. I do know it is important that ‘institutions’ like these have to check in…especially when children are involved. You can’t go build a ‘church’ in the woods, start calling yourself a prophet and marrying off underage girls to older men against their will. And you can’t tell me that’s not happening there. And you can’t tell me that every underage girl is willing… take the one who was married off to her older cousin, for example (as revealed during Jeff’s latest court appearance).
Family, where there is smoke, there is fire. Take a look at history to see how this anonymous caller’s story may very well be true. If you are content to just sit idly by after folks like Jim Jones, David Qureshi(?) and that Heaven’s Gate fella, fine. It’s none of yours or the government’s business anyway, right?
And, honestly, I wish someone would shut down that church of Scientology mess…but that isn’t roped off in the woods somewhere. They have buildings all over that desperate, fragile, seeking individuals can just walk right into.
Here’s a bit of that article about the ‘sex bed’:
Agents searching a 1,700-acre polygamist compound in West Texas found a bed in the soaring limestone temple and prosecutors believe it was used for male members to have sex with their underage wives after sect-recognized unions.
The discovery was revealed Wednesday as troopers completed their weeklong search of the grounds of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, said spokeswoman Tela Mange.
The temple “contains an area where there is a bed where males over the age of 17 engage in sexual activity with female children under the age of 17,” according to an affidavit quoting a confidential informant who had been providing information to the Schleicher County sheriff for years.
Texas law prohibits polygamy and the marriage of girls under 16.
CBS2 has the rest here: http://www.kutv.com/content/news/topnews/story.aspx?content_id=4c8d5f26-fbf2-4ecf-b0f0-e4ded5d0966b
Peace…and yes, it is our business.
I understand your point of view but in America you get the evidence before you go in not after. Another thing I learned in life is that the accused always appears guilty until you hear the side of the defense. That is why we have courts of law with defense lawyers and juries of piers.
If you really want the government to shut down all cults I think you will soon be changing your mind once the blood bath begins. There are thousands of cults In America and many are more secretive and anti government than this one.
If government starts shutting down cults what makes you think they will not soon thereafter go after your own religion? What if your religion teaches that homosexuality is immoral etc.? Check out what the liberals are planning to put in hate speech legislation.
If the government goes after religious cults just because they are religious cults what makes anyone think the religious organization that they belong to will not be labeled a cult next? Hitler went after the Jews but the Christians were next on his list. I have heard mainline Christians call Calvary Chapels cults, I have heard mainline Christians call Word of Faith churches cults. I even heard high officals say all fundamental religions should be outlawed.
Like I said Islam is the biggest cult in the world and many of the exact same things that went on in this compound in Texas takes place in Muslim homes all the time. So why are they exempt.?
Do you want a police state or do you want to live in free America? You cannot have both.
Sure we have laws and they should be enforced but in this country you get the proof that a crime is being committed before you put hundred of lives in danger. Then you present the evidence to a judge and the judge gives a warrant for an arrest not a fishing exposition.
At least we used to do that before certain self righteous people decided they were the judge, jury and executioner as they did in Waco.
I do not think this is a government conspiracy but I also do not think they handled this in a sane or constitutional way . For sure, moral people do not take the victims and the brainwashed (the woman and children) and make them victims again be taking their children away and putting small kids in foster homes where the mother may never see her child again.
If the state did this right they would be giving each woman and her children a place to live outside the compound until trial. However, they did not do that because they had no legal grounds to hold these woman against their will. They are accused of no crime but yet their children were taken by the state. That should tell you wonders.
You will be hearing about this case for years and I am willing to bet that it will cost taxpayers many millions in lawsuits and legal fees. The lawyers are not all flocking to the defense of these mothers because they think there is no money to be made. In the end all evidence from this raid will be thrown out of court and nothing will be accomplished except a lot of money will be wasted, the cult will become more anti government, and the kids will grow up nuts.
Okay, sexual abuse and sex with underaged persons are punishable crimes. If cult members are found to be guilty of this practise, they should be punished on the basis of these laws. I wish it were as simple as banning cults but it is not. You can’t start making laws against every cult around, there’s too many of them. Government comes in when a cult starts to infringe on the rights and freedoms of its members. If a cult by its very nature condones practises such as underage sex, drug abuse, polygamy, murder or suicide, then you might argue they should outlaw these cults. But then what are they to do with fundamentalist Islam, or Buddhists, Wiccans and Satanists? As long as the members of these religions, cults or sects or whatever you wish to call them, are consenting adults, then I believe it is their own problem. It’s true that the children of these fools will be the greatest victims of them all, yet again I think you have to be realistic. The way they took away all these children from their mothers based on a phone call about sexual abuse (which may indeed very well have been true) professes an immature and irresponsible reaction on the government’s behalf. No matter these kids grow up in a cult, they have the right to be raised by their mother. The state of Texas has only itself to blame for allowing things to get out of hand this way.
Also, many terrorist organizations are banned or blacklisted by many governments all around the world. Has that stopped Al Qaeda, Hamas, Hizbullah or the Japanese Red Army and the Ku Klux Klan for that matter, from perpetrating attacks or spreading their hatred? It would take military force to stop them from attacking but even then you cannot militarily destroy their rotten philosophies and beliefs. You would have to ban all their literature and outlaw or execute all those who sympathize with them. Yet how fair would that be to do in a free society that upholds the right to freedom of press, expression and religion? It would lead to totalitarianism. I think the same applies to the question of dealing with cults.
As far as the name “cult” is concerned, I don’t like to use the term “cult” too much. After all, if Islam is a cult, what does that make of Hinduism? I don’t think we should give anyone the impression that any one of these false and demonically inspired religions are more or less dangerous or more false or true compared to Biblical faith by choosing to label one and not the other a “cult”. I tend to reserve the term “cult” or “sect” to unbiblical denominations who still claim to be “Christian”.
We’ve been talking about small cults here and there may be plenty of them around but what people don’t see is that perhaps the biggest cult of them all is Catholicism and we might add similar churches. They have child abusing clergy, they don’t punish these clergy and so far I haven’t heard much of an apology from their cult leader named the Pope who claims to be the representation of God on earth and his (oh excuse me, His) church being the Kingdom of God on earth. Just how insane is that? Not to mention their worship of saints (mere human beings) and Jesus’ mother Mary. How about their forced conversions, burning Protestants and other “heretics”, and having forbidden their members to actually read the Holy Scriptures for themselves, for centuries! An illustration: my father told me he once asked a teacher when he was a kid, why doesn’t the Pope sell those expensive paintings in the Vatican and give the revenue to the poor? He got punished of course.
So, tell me, is the government going to outlaw Catholicism now? Of course not.
And for the record, I’m not even suggesting they should.
Great points and very well said.
Every action produces a reaction. The government over reaction at Waco gave life to the American patriot movement that produced some radicals within that ended up blowing up the federal building in Oklahoma City. The seeds of distrust of government are still very much alive in parts of America.
If the government starts storm trooping religious compounds without due process of law and taking kids away from their parents by bureaucratic decree they will sow the seeds for a new and broader anti government movement. If this raid had gone bad like at Waco this might be seen in history as the first event that started the second American civil war. All insurgencies start out small but over reactions produce over reactions and pretty soon you find yourself living in Iraq.
Think it can’t happen here? guess again. I hate to think of what might happen once hate speech laws and other social engineering legislations are passed by the Liberals and government attempts to enforce them in rural America. Let bureaucrats start taking away the kids of those who will not comply with anti biblical federal laws and there will be a civil war.
If the police task forces really want to do something to rescue our nation from cults why not start with a plan to take back the inner cities from the control of the drug cult?
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