King James only and Gail Riplinger’s “New Age Bible Versions” has more than once been brought up on this Blog and elsewhere. I find it incredible that a woman with degrees in Interior design, with no formal training on the Bible, a woman that cannot even read Hebrew or Greek can set herself up as some authority over the best trained Bible translators in the world. I find it dumbfounding that Christians and even some “discernment ministries” would actually take what she says seriously without even reading what the experts say about her bazaar claims.
I can only surmise that her distortions of the truth appeal to those with a wooden head that somehow became a treasure chest full of conspiracy theories. They want to believe conspiracy theories so bad that they grasp at anything at all if it seems to support their conspiracy concepts. Nevermind, that Gail Riplinger’s sad works have divided Christians and churches for no reason and discredited good Bible translations and translators. Nevermind, that she would not be allowed to teach a Sunday school to the men in most of the churches where she is held in highest esteem. However, in their wooden minds her books support their King James Only beliefs, so she gets a free pass from them to twist the truth in front of the whole world.
I think all that are promoting Gail Riplingers books should take what James White said below very seriously. It is understandable that certain people like Riplinger would write books on topics that they really do not have the qualification to write, but why are some Christians, churches and forums promoting her? Where is is thy discernment that many doing this claim to have??
I think James White says it best in this summery from his review and his debates on Riplinger’s book and claims.
Gail Riplinger’s works have been reviewed, and rejected, by numerous Christian leaders and scholars. For most, it’s a waste of time to even discuss the issue, since it’s so obvious that she is a troubler of the brethren, a woman who is out of control, setting herself up as an expert on topics about which she knows nothing at all. Her inability to function as a scholar is plain to anyone who wishes to see. The impact she has had in disrupting churches, damaging missions work, and in generally causing trouble, is hers to answer for.
In closing, though, we should actually be more troubled about what Gail Riplinger’s work says about the church as a whole. Where has discernment gone? Why didn’t someone sit her down a long time ago and try to straighten her out? And what is worse, why are men to this day letting her go on her merry way, spreading falsehoods, and even encouraging her in such activities? I have been informed (but have not taken the time to verify) that Mrs. Riplinger was recently granted an honorary doctorate by Jack Hyles for her work, New Age Bible Versions. Can someone explain how a person who doesn’t even have the first bit of undergraduate training in any of the fields relating to Bible translation can be given an honorary doctorate for having produced the most error-filled volume on the topic ever to grace the planet? Is “acrostic algebra” the stuff of doctorates? One may well forgive Gail, for she is obviously deceived; but what of the many others who encourage her to continue on in her path of disturbing the work of the Church? Might not they be even more liable? It would seem so.
(link to James White on Gail Riplinger )
KJO and atheists have one thing in common. They are both liars. In fact James Price who was former executive editor on the Old Testament for the NKJV has written letters in a Christ-like manner to Gail Riplinger. but what does she do? She keep writing books that are full of lies. And here are the letters by James Price If anyone like to read them http://www.jamesdprice.com/newkingjamesversion.html
Since Frank and other KJO like to accuse NKJ and other good modern versions of “perverting” different verses I would like to show the KJO folks how the KJV has “perverted” some verses. Here we go.
Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city (KJV)
So is salvation of works? And I will note that even the NKJV reads basically the same way.
The NASB reads Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter by the gates into the city. This is the proper translation of this verse. I will note that the TR manuscript of Revelation is not as accurate as the other books in that text.
Matt 6:24 & Matt 25:21 are just a few verses that the KJV translated it to a more bearable word “servant”. The word “doulos” means slave not servant.
Those are just a few verses that prove that the KJV is not inspired but is just a translation.
Here is a good website that has information about the CT and TR text and some other stuff http://www.dtl.org/versions/index.html
And also you can learn more about the histories of different English versions of the Bible here: http://www.bible-researcher.com/index.html
Justin, I agree, I think it is always best to check several translations versions on a questionable verse.
Yeah, search corrupt manuscripts until you find a verse that says what you demand it say. Meanwhile the received Hebrew and Greek Christians died protecting and shepherding down through history that actually has the authority of God in it (rather than the authority of man) is something to mock. Wake up, boys. I don’t say men, you’re not men when you fear man. Fear God alone, and I’ll call you men.
I think we were talking about the errors in Gail Riplinger’s books here? Like you know which manuscripts we have today that are perfect? If you do you will be the first one! Who died for the KJV after newer translations came out? Name a few and I might even call you a lady.
There’s a difference between a received manuscript and a constructed manuscript. Providence (of which God is sovereign) has a hand in the received manuscripts. Petulant fallen human nature that disdains the authority of God has a hand in the constructed ones.
It was the goal of the counter-Reformation Jesuits to put questions in the minds of Christians as to whether we have God’s Word, and they did this using the corrupt manuscripts and variants. Their goal was to make people give up on the Word of God and fall into the ‘loving hands’ of the word and authority of man. The reformers and Christians of that era won that battle. The devil’s children always have the long view though. What they couldn’t achieve in the 16th century they achieved more easily in the 19th.
>Who died for the KJV after newer translations came out?
This is a silly question. The battle was won in the Reformation. Though if the devil begins to attempt to make reading or owning the Authorized Version a violation of law then you damn well will see Christians once again fighting and dying for the pure and whole received Word of God. That’s not something you should wish for, though, pilgrim. You don’t want to be on the wrong side of the battle line on that one. Trust me.
I will repeat for the last time your you,
This post is about the errors of Gail Riplinger in her books who mainly is talking about the NASV and NIV. These two versions are as least as accurate as the King James Version overall. Now if you are talking about some of the latest pop translations and paraphrases I agree that we need to stand against bad ones. But Gail Riplinger is flat out wrong about the NASB and mostly wrong about the NIV and if you read the article I linked to you would have a little bit of understanding why.
I also suppose you think the dead sea scrolls that also influence these versions were influenced by the Jesuits?. By the way, there is not so great a difference between the major manuscripts that it would change any essential doctrine of the Christian faith.
Ct ur making yourself look like a idiot. Did u know that the TR was written by a Catholic Humanist? Did you check out the link I posted that talks about the history of each English version? Did u read the coment on how the KJV messes up on some verses? So basically u are a sissy for not admitting that u are wrong about the manuscripts and espically the TR.
I guess Ct does not have the guts to try to refute what I have put as a comment. Ct you are a little boy. If you want to be a Man of God then quit believing in fairy tales!
Justin, your verses are devastating. I now will give my allegiance to modern scholarship and the authority and word of man. It’s a relief too because now I too can pick and choose which verses should be in the Bible and which should be translated differently and basically determine the content of the Word of God myself. It was so annoying giving my allegiance to the received Word of God and having to humble myself to it and look up to it rather than being able to look down on it and see it as a mere document the contents of which is determined by myself and my favorite scholars and liberal theologians. Thanks, Justin.
So now you are attacking translators that u do not know. How do you know they are liberal? Oh its because one of those KJO morons told u that did they? Where does it say in the Bible that the TR is the inspired ‘Word of God”? I am not picking and choosing verses that I think that are correct. I just revealed some of the errors of the KJV. So why did God “inspired” the KJV and did not inspired the Geneva Bible, a spanish Bible, or a Bible in the Arabic language? Why would God “Inspired” a humanist Catholic to write the TR
So what makes the KJ translators so special? And why do you accuse a translator for a different translation such as NKJV and NASB of being Satanic?
You need to quit insulting me and answer my questions which u still do not have the guts to do.
And also you should thank Don for allowing ur comment be posted. Normally he does not allow idiots like u keep posting on his blog.
Don I do not think this idiot is going to learn anything. He loves to lie and make up conspiracy stories like other KJO folks do.
I am not going to waste my time arguing with this moron anymore. He will probably will lose many rewards in heaven because of lying and making us Christians look like a bunch of loons.
Don I will just let u deal with him. I did all that I could to help him understand the truth.
Justin, you are as ignorant as Critical Text scholars want (and need) their followers to be. You have been a good little useful idiot for the modern versions product assembly line.
Any sound translation of the Hebrew Masoretic and Greek Received Text is the pure and whole Word of God. Notice no modern translations are based on the received texts (not even the NKJV)? That is due to the famine of the end time, which is a famine for the Word of God. And notice any project to make a modern translation of the received texts *always deviates*? The devil’s children won’t allow it., and God won’t allow it because He knows His own know the voice of the Shepherd and the modern versions are put before you as a stumblingblock for your worldly pride, your vanity, your fear of man, your mocking, and your rebellious self-will to stumble on.
>Why would God “Inspired” a humanist Catholic to write the TR
One doesn’t ‘write’ a biblical manuscript, one edits a manuscript (and there is a further difference between an edited manuscript and a *constructed* manuscript). Erasmus lived prior to the Reformation (he was an old man when Luther took a hammer to that church door). A Romanist can see the light (as the first generation reformers themselves did) Learn history. On the other hand the Romanist provenance and use of the corrupt manuscripts is explicit and can be seen in the central strategy of Roman Beast counter-Reformation activity itself. History exposes Critical Text propaganda, this is why they don’t want you knowing history.
You really have no excuse. Christians have disabused you guys over and over of your Critical Text notions and propaganda. That you still cling to the devil’s line shows that what is hindering you from accepting the truth is beyond anything we Christians can do to help you. You need regeneration that can only come from the Word and the Spirit. Ask God for it. Humbly.
Justin, I now have the system set up so that all posts will be instantly approved unless I delete them, except for first time posters and those I ban. I am sure you and others will appreciate that there will no longer be a delay on your posts, but doing this means some things will get posted that I would not have approved if I were reading everything first.
I do read each post eventually and if someone posts something that abuses my posting policy (see top of sidebar) I may delete their posts and they may even get banned from this Blog.
CT, this is the last time I will tell you that this post is about the errors in Gail RIplinger’s books. Three strikes and your out. If you continue to go down this path you will be banned from this blog. I have yet to believe that you have even took the time to read the article that this post is based on.
The truth of the matter is that the only perfect texts are the original autographs. Nobody has those even in the original languages. The best we have in English are good translations of good text manuscripts.
Some translations reply more on certain manuscripts more than others and there is valid disagreement on which family of manuscripts is the best. However, all good Bible translations look at all the major manuscripts (I am not talking about paraphrases and pop designer versions). To say the NKJV translators did not look at the TR tells me that you are either talking out of your butt or you are purposely lying. If you just read the introduction to the NKJV version they will tell you what they did to try to give the best translation possible. In fact the NKJV is based on the same text (TR) as the KJV.
No language translates perfectly. Some Bible translations lean more heavily toward thought-for-thought translation (NIV) others more toward word-for-word translation (NASV – true word for word translations are unreadable they would make no sense to the average person. If you do not believe me try translating any language word by word into intelligible sentences.) The NKJV and KJV made great efforts not to be in either extremes or to say it another way to bridge the extremes.
The latest scholarship (the thinking changed more than once in modern times) once again believes the TR are the most accurate manuscripts because they “think” the earlier Alexandrian family of manuscripts “may” have been influenced already by Gnostics. But, again, there are no differences between the manuscripts that would change any major Christian doctrines in any of these manuscripts.
I may be wrong but you seem to convey that you think God has been re-inspiring his word in King James English? That is nothing but complete utter silly nonsense. I suppose you think the 200 BC dead sea scroll manuscripts were corrupted by the Jesuits? There are known minor differences from the Masoretic Text put together 800 years later then the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Masoretic Text used by the KJV. I wonder how the Jesuits went back in time to performed that feat of magic?
Therefore, one has to come to one of two conclusions. The earlier texts are less corrupted or the earliest texts were corrupted and God again breathe His word into a committee of Jews still dead in their sins in 600 AD by vote! 😆
In the same line of reasoning, if the King James Version was perfect then why so many revisions of the king James Version to correct all the known errors? Which version of the King James Version is inspired and why are other language translations less inspired? (I hope you do not think God is a racist).
The NKJV and other good modern translators looked at the dead sea scrolls and other later found manuscripts to help them get it right but the translation is based on the TR. The KJV translators could not do that since these manuscripts were in caves and not available to them at that time.
It really takes a very dull boy to actually believe King James Only nonsense. That is why that line of thought is most popular with those who have difficultly processing information and even more problems understanding information.
I understand why you moderate posts and it does not bother me. I just wonder where does ct gets his information from? I’ve been on to different KJO websites and I have never read what he put on this blog. Maybe he just get his history lessons from conspiracy books who knows.
CT is no longer with us because after many warnings He simply will not get the message. I am not going to continue wasting my time with people like him who choose to be divisive and abusive and just use this blog as a soapbox for aberrant beliefs. You can try to educate people but you cannot make irrational people rational. His foul language that is not posted and his ugly disposition tells me that he must be in a Cult rather than Christianity. We have millions of people caught up in cults in this nation so there should be little wonder why there is also a segment of people programed to have faith in unfounded conspiracies even after being presented the facts. like I said, I doubt if he even read the link in my article or looked at the links that your provided. He is one of those that are just too happy believing their own errors.
Don, once again you go on to attack Riplinger’ so-called “distortions of the truth.” Please list them here for all to see. I will personally give her the list so she can answer your charges. Otherwise, it is slander. Thank you.
Frank, What I say in this blog post is my own opinion from the facts given to me and my own knowledge of Bible translations. That is not slander it is just wise discernment. When a person writes a book and appears on public forums they are public figures and what they say is fair game to be critiqued and criticized by the public.
Most of what I said here just affirms that I agree with what James White said in his summery of a critique of her books, His summery is quoted in the post. I clearly also give a link to his full article that his many arguments against Ripenlinger’s claims. There is where the list of distortions are documented that you want to see and there is where the list will remain because I do not steal other people’s writings. Almost all I wrote was really aimed at you people that apparent have no discernment, not her.
You really might try reading the article by James White and consider the merit of what this eminent scholar said. I obviously agree with most of what he said. If you are saying a real scholar like James White wrote slanderous untruths about what he found in Riplinger’s books you ought to take it up with him and see what he has to say about your acuzations of slander.
But I sincerely doubt if James white would even take the time to answer a wooden headed loon making false acquisitions about his slander. So instead you come here displaying yourself like your some big shot accusing me of slander because I happen to agree with a very well known Bible scholar that reviewed Riplinger’s books.
I suggest you get get your facts straight because next time you accuse me of slander or cause discord here you will be banned from this blog as you undoubtedly are already banned from many others that just cannot put up with your legalistic narrow mind that is often prone to sowing discord on Christian sites.
So it’s opinion. Thank you.
I have read and listened to many of James White’ diatribes. He castigates Riplinger for taking quotes out of context, then does the same exact thing when quoting her books.
My facts are completely straight and Gail has been notified. You obviously are more worried about someone having the proper “qualifications” to write commentary on the Bible. If Gail is not qualified, who is? She has hours per day to research. If you have written any books, you know that it takes hours and even years to research for just one book on these issues.
You once again insult people on your blog as “loons”, as you have me yet again. Where is your love of the body of Christ? Are you even a true Christian insulting people? You question her “discernment”, but where is yours sir?
Sorry to disappoint you Don, but I have never been banned from any site. If you choose to do so, that is obviously your prerogative and the readers of this site will know I am sure when they no longer see a post from me. All I am asking is for you to back-up Gail’s so-called “distortions of truth”. You must admit, that is a fair request. If someone were out telling people slanderous things about you, I would defend you the same and let you know about it.
Frank, I will say one more time since your are so dense.
The list is in the full article written by James White.
There is a link at the end of what I quoted. Anyone can read the article and make up their own mind. Or if you want more information on both sides of the argument just do a Google search on what people are saying about the book, good and bad.
In my opinion it is Gail that is attacking the well trained translation experts of the world not me or James White. White is just pointing out why her “New Age Bible Versions” book is not worth serious consideration by Christians.
Frank, if your not a loon then stop acting like one. I do not believe that Christians have to just tolerate those that promote concepts that will only harm the Body. That is why shepherds carry rods. Jesus and Paul loved the sheep enough that they laid down their lives for them. Those that will not fight for the sheep being misled and divided are cowards.
I do not think anyone will give a hoot if you are banned from this site. I have already had at least one person leave this site because of your comments and frankly my posts will still be read even if I allow no comments..
You can’t base your opinions just on comments about a book. “The Shack” has good and bad comments, but we both know that book is apostate.
Riplinger even has a quote in her book from Dr. Frank Logsdon, who wrote the format of the NASV, who now renounces any involvement with that translation by saying,
“When questions began to reach me at first I was quite offended. I’m afraid I am in trouble with the Lord…I must under God renounce every attachment with the New American Standard….You can say the Authorized Version is absolutely correct. How correct? 100% correct!” That is a powerful statement from someone who actually set the format, helped interview some of the translators, and also wrote the preface.
He goes on to say that, “the finest leaders that we have today…haven’t gone into it.”
Many of the claims she makes in her books are even (inadvertently) backed up by authors such as Dr. William Grady, Dr. Kerby Fannin, and others that have written books since “New Age Bible Versions”.
All I can suggest is looking into it yourself. You are correct on most biblical issues on this blog, especially the emergent church movement and their efforts at changing the gospel.
Lord Jesus please return soon and deliver us from all this confusion about what is or what is not Your Word.
All of us need to go to The Lord in prayer and HONESTLY seek the truth as God gives it and not as we want it to be. When I believed on The Lord Jesus Christ back in 1987, I literally threw out every teaching I received as a Roman Catholic. My very first prayer was, “Lord Jesus, please show me the truth. All I want is the truth. I was lied to all my life and I don’t want to be lied to anymore. Please Lord Jesus help me and show me the truth.” I was balling my eyes out when I prayed. I had to clean myself up. And then I picked up my wife’s King James bible sitting on the edge of my bed and opened right to this verse (mind you, I knew ZERO about the bible), “1 Kings 3:10-11 And the speech pleased the Lord, that Solomon had asked this thing. And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;…” Have you any idea how hard that hit me? What are the chances that I should open right to that verse? After what I had prayed? I broke down crying again thanking The Lord Jesus for answering my prayer, and from that day on, He has ALWAYS answered any prayer regarding truth! ALWAYS! When Christians start depending on mans intellect to guide them and show them the truth, that’s when we will fall into the pit. Our very attitudes towards each other begins to rot, and we fall into the trap of name calling and intellectual pride which thing God hates! We are to LOVE the brethren, remember? Or is that too hard to understand?
I do not defend the likes of Gail Riplinger. Though I may be wrong, I have an eerie feeling that the woman is a Satanic plant for the sole purpose of creating division among the Body of Christ. I did read her book, and when I finished, I threw it in the trash.
When I have a problem understanding a verse, chapter or entire book, such as Ezekiel, I ask God for wisdom to understand. Of course I do ask other more mature Christians for help and guidance. But I do not take their word as final authority. I depend on God for that. People are sinners, and make serious mistakes.
Yes, I use only the King James, but not because some theologian or manuscript “expert” told me so. It’s because I know that it has The Lord’s approval regardless of some “faults’ that many seem to find or think exists. I will say this…I find it strange that there is a growing hatred towards King James and I believe it’s because of a serious spiritual problem within The Lord’s congregations. Let us be of Philadelphia, and not Sardis who did not watch for The Lord, and especially not of Laodicea. Again I pray, Lord Jesus please return soon and deliver your people from those who would cause division and confusion within Your people, amen.
Don, here are some links to Gail’s repsonse to James White’s slanderous remarks. Keep in mind he has not answered these response by Gail. (He has had over 10 years to do so.)
http://www.avpublications.com/avnew/content/Critiqued/james1.html
It is part of her free download called “Blind Guides.
Part 3 is especially good. Scroll down and read, “The Public Spanking of James White.”
http://www.avpublications.com/avnew/content/Critiqued/james2.html
Frank, I do not think everything in her book is wrong. How can you get 700 pages all wrong? But some of the problems in the book where brought up by James White. All translations have mistakes that does not make it a conspiracy.
Besides, I already said that there are some problems in these translations due to more heavy reliance on Alexandrian manuscripts (not the NKJV it is based on TR) but at the time of the writing of these translations they were thought to be more accurate then the TR because they were earlier manuscripts. Is that a conspiracy? Then the experts found some evidence that there “might” be some Gnostic influence in these early texts so now once again in the very latest good modern translations the TR is given more weight again.
Translators use the best knowledge they have in their time, as did the KJV translators. But they did not know about the Dead Sea Scrolls. So on we go because of those new found manuscripts
The truth is that we never had a perfect English translation, translators will continue to learn and improve on the translation with the knowledge they have. That does not mean that any translators were misleading people or that these versions are Satanic or that there was some conspiracy.
Meant to say in the last post to scroll to the bottom of the page to go to part 3. Link at the bottom of each page.
The only thing that one can have against the KJV, is the use of “Old English.” Once one gets used to that, (which for me only took about 3 chapters of reading), it is very easy to read.
The point is that Lucifer uses pride to blind the eyes of these “modern” translators, without them even looking into the true origins of what they are translating. There is no debating that the prime reason most Christians are “luke-warm” today is because of the watering-down of the English Bibles since Westcott and Hort created their own Greek OT and NT in the 1880’s.
Westcott was a necromancer, Universalist and friend of a pederast (CJ Vaughan). Hort was a racist that absolutely hated blacks by his own words and was also Universalist. Neither were Godly men by any stretch.
Frank, I would think by what James white said and the tile of the article that he wrote (see above) that he feels that Riplinger’s works and arguments are not even worthy of a response by serious scholars or that they even should be considered by Christian’s with any discernment..
Your last comment is mostly not true for a lot of reasons that I am not going to get into here because I also am through arguing with you. If wish to continue contributing to the blog topics here you will now cease and desist. You had your say.
Then why did James White attempt to critique her book in the first place.? There is no logic there.
Tell me what is not true in my last post. You can’t accuse someone of falsehoods and expect them to just sit down and say nothing. That’s wicked.
Frank, you might try reading the article. The first section of the article tells you why James White wrote the article.
Frank I can do what I want on my own Blog, including saying that much of what you said is not true. This is not a endless debate forum and I know correcting you on anything is about as productive as picking up my dogs by their ears. I am not going to continue to waste my time with you on this topic.
I really suggest you move on. This is your last comment on this topic. The next comment you make here will be deleted and if you persist you will be totally banned from my blog.
Frank, After you read James White’s article I would also encourage you to read James Price’s response to Gail Riplinger’s book.
Justin, I do not know what article you had in mind by James price, but here is a link to a couple of responses to Gail Riplinger from James Price.
http://www.jamesdprice.com/newkingjamesversion.html
Good reading!
That was the article I had in mind. Actually I posted that link on a earlier comment. I agree it is a good article to read.
I looked over the articles of Professor James Price last night. In the first two articles He totally demolishes Riplinger’s arguments against the NKJV. It is amazing to see the tone difference between his first letter to Reiplinger that point out the errors of her first book and the tone that Professor Price takes against her in his rebuttal of her second book. It seems to me that he went from telling a Christian of her errors to letting everyone know that she was not only informed of her errors but that she persists in spreading her false witness.
But, don’t take my word for it. Professor Price words speaks for themselves, If anyone is interested just go to the link provided and read them.
Therefore, one might ask, where is the fear of God in this woman? For the Bible says.
Prov 6:16 These six things doth the LORD hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:
17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,
18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,
19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.
The only thing I wish the NKJV translation committee would have done is used the MT when the TR was in error. Here is some articles on Bible prophecy that Professor’s Price has written that you might like to check out http://www.jamesdprice.com/prophecy.html
I seen those topics this is all on the same website as the previous links. His position on Bible prophecy is really not my concern here. His being an expert on Bible translations does not mean that he does or nor does not have correct understanding of Bible prophecy. It is off topic for this post anyway.
I think Professor James Price indicated there were no major differences in the texts. Besides, the minor differences in texts are footnoted in the middle column of the NKJV.
This will be my last comment on this subject, and hopefully The Holy Spirit will guide me in what I say here. My prayer is for wisdom and discernment for all of The Lord’s people.
In Psalm 12 and 119, God says that He will preserve His Word, not men. God will use men to do so, but it is God who is in control of His Word. Also, we do not have a God of confusion. God would not create differing versions for sinful man to determine which manuscript to follow. There are those who want a bible closest to the original manuscripts, but the originals no longer exist, so you have nothing to make comparison to. In other words…you’re left with relying on God and God alone to lead us to His pure Word. That’s called faith IN GOD…not man, regardless of the amount of alphabet soup following that man’s name.
Are we saved permanently or are we BEING saved? Depending on the bible version you use, you may never know. Compare these verses with several bible versions and see what you come up with? Acts 2:47 and 1 Cor. 1:18. The God that I believe and trust in convicts me of my salvation, and it is as sure as the Sun rising and setting everyday! I KNOW I am saved, regardless of what sins I may commit. Not that we have a right to practice sin, but when I do, I confess it and am restored to fellowship with my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Those who believe you can lose salvation have no answer to why we are CHASTISED if we continue in sin. If we could lose salvation, chastisement makes no sense.
Every time I tell someone to ask The Lord in prayer to show them the truth, they act as though the prayer will not be answered or that it’s foolish to do so? Why oh why will people not ask The Lord in prayer with sincerity to know which bible to use as I did back in 1987? I was so confused back then because I wanted a bible that I could trust and know that it was from God and His Words pure. My pastor and assistant pastor would assure me that the NIV, NKJV, RSV, NASB can all be trusted. Yet when I sat down and compared verses, I became more confused and RAN into prayer to ask The Lord “which bible can I trust? Please Lord Jesus help me. ” I begged with tears to know…literally!
“Yea hath God said…” started to play on my mind. There is only one person who would do that…SATAN!
When Christians cannot agree on what is or what is not God’s Word, there is a serious spiritual problem, and a serious attack on God’s Word to keep The Lord’s people confused and separated from each other!
For every supposed error in the King James Bible there are 100’s that I can show in the other versions. Contradictions, additions, subtractions from God’s Word abound.
I stated in an earlier post that hatred of the King James bible is growing. Why? I also noted that a person here compared those who use the King James to atheists in that they are liars? Where did that come from? Did The Holy Spirit of God lead you to say such a thing? Or was it ‘someone’ else?
All of us need to go to The Lord Jesus Christ in prayer and to ask Him which bible to use. Failure to do so will lead you into confusion of which is God’s Word, whether you are saved or not or are in the process of “being saved”, is Jesus Christ God incarnate or The Son of God, but not God? Did God really create the entire universe in six literal days, etc. ?
May The Lord Jesus Christ deliver His people from the confusion that Satan has caused, and lead us into the fellowship of the saints and to be of one accord, of one mind.
If you want to know God’s Word, why not ask HIM? Or is that too much to ask?
If you had read what Professor Price said in the links provided you would know why the NKJV is probably the most accurate English translation that we have today. I personally think the best translation of the Bible is in the language that one can read and comprehend. Thank God that we have translators that do their best to translate the Hebrew and Greek manuscripts into various languages of the world so the world can understand what God said. Yes, there are many other languages besides just English!
I am sure many people could pray over the various Bible versions and believe they get different answers from God on which one to use. The truth is that the best one you use is the one you will read. The real problem today is that most Christians are not reading any Bible translation.
I would recommend that people get a parallel Bible and read several translations. There really are not enough differences in any of the major translations to change any doctrine of the faith. Besides, it is not the Bible that saves it is Jesus that saves. What translation of the Bible did the very early Gentiles have that heard and believed and were saved? They had none! Salvation comes by Grace through faith in Jesus period. Scripture is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
The distorted doctrine you claim to see is a figment of your own imagination. The facts are that we are both saved and we are still in the process of being saved. Your not yet in your final body and the passage you probably think you see is really telling you to continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling. You have not yet appeared before Jesus and received your rewards or taking away of rewards for what you did after you were saved. What you think you see is not saying that a believer can lose their salvation (that concept comes via theologians not Bible translations.)
There is only one perfect word of God. There are not additions and subtractions to God’s word. The problem is in manuscripts that we have and the interpretation of the words on the manuscripts. That is why it takes the best experts to discern what they think is the closest to the actual words of God. It is also why no two translations of a large ancient document will ever be exactly the same..
The problem with NKO people is that they often bring discredit on themselves and on Christianity in general. They really have made the KJV an idol. Like the nuts in the news yesterday that are burning all Bibles that are not King James. These people act more like they are in a cult then they are in Christ. I don’t have the figures on this but I wonder how many KJO people are really Oneness heretics or are in some cult? If they are Oneness it would explain why they hate the trinity symbol on the NKJV.
Brother in Christ
I need to apologize because I think I may have given you the impression that I am a Oneness believer. I am not. I believe in The Father, The Son and The Holy Ghost, and those three are one (1 John 5:7-8) Jesus Christ is God, the second person of the Godhead.
Also, it is not my intention to cause division or anger between brothers and sisters in Christ. My sole intention was to encourage Christians not to be mean spirited towards each other but to encourage each other, and to trust The Lord Jesus Christ more and more as they grow in Christ.
I am sorry if I caused any problems.
Frank Ebell,
I mixed you up with the other Frank so I took out the statement on my last comment about “giving you a pass”, (I warned the other Frank that he already had his say.)
I want you to know that you did not give me the impression that you were a Oneness believer. I was not implying that you were Oneness or even anyone commenting on this post was Oneness. I just made an observation that maybe some of the KJO radials are Oneness or even members of Cults.
You have not caused problems here, you just spoke what you believe, and even if I do not agree on every point you made, you have a right to express what you think God is telling you..
Whew! Thanks brother 🙂
I’m so glad you have brought this subject up. The problem I see with most
KJO people is how hateful some of them are. One Church my daughter attended
the pastor took her NIV study Bible and threw it on the floor.
I have had an NIV Ryrie Study Bible for many years now, I wouldn’t give up.
Norman Geisler wrote a very informative book “Intoduction to the Bible” and
may help to inform your readers. I have it packed so I can’t quote from it
offhand.
There were verses that were added (or rewritten) to reinforce belief in the
Trinity (1 John 5: 7,8) The early manuscripts and some other ancient
wittnesses do not have Mark 16: 9-20.
I do have some concerns that in 2012, Robert Murdoch of Newscorps which bought
Zondervan is rewriting the NIV. Given that Prince Alawalleed of Saudi Arabia
owns major stock in NewsCorps I wonder if there might be some influence.
Mine was published by Moody; not really sure if that makes a difference.
Personally, Jesus and his disciples spook and no doubt wrote in the language
of the day. I have never heard any minister or teacher talk like “How art thee
today”
Wasn’t the KJV translated from other Bible translations and they did not
have many of the earlier and ancient manuscripts that we have available to us
today? My NIV was translated from these manuscripts rather than other Bible
translations.
Thanks
Sybil
Sybil,
Thanks for your informative input. Dr. Norman Geisler is a very brilliant man and I would take what he says seriously. Your correct that some manuscripts have things added that are not found in others even among the same major family. In most cases it seems to be put there for emphasis because it is found elsewhere. It is hard to get human nature out of transcribing.
I do have some concerns with the NIV because I believe the main set of manuscripts they used were from the Alexandrian family. The NIV is more a thought-for-thought translation and they can totally miss the original thought if they did not really understand it . Now they also have designer NIV versions such as the gender neutral version. That is idiotic.
I also would be very concerned about any future version of any translation that is under the management of unbelievers. There are better translations choices out there than the NIV so I would not recommend that anyone buy the NIV today.The Southern Baptists dropped it from their Bible studies but probably mainly because they got tired of paying the royalties.
The KJV was translated from the Greek and Hebrew TR manuscripts and so is the NKJV
Bible version debates always get lots of comments :). I lean heavily to King James version because God was obviously moving heavily at that time and I don’t think God would allow verses in the bible and then hundreds of years later decide that they shouldn’t be there. I have faith in God preseving his word; not man. If God allowed things in the KJV bible during a fruitful time for God, then I must conclude that it is good. What “fruit” has the newly discovered older texts yielded? look no further than these posts and you will see; problems among believers and lukewarm christians. Nevertheless there are believers that use different versions so I can’t discount them totally but I do wonder how distorted the Word will be in 20 years once all the people are confortable with scholars telling us the words were mistranslated. I think the goal and direction is similar to what Don posted above slowly change things little by little and people will never know. KJV only people are being a very good restraint for total distortion of the word of God.
JB,
The world was not such a grand ole Christian place back in the days when the King James Version was the main version either, just read our own history, during the bloody civil war Christians using the KJV were fighting each other on both sides, so it is not likely that those times were a more fruitful time for God’s kingdom than today. Millions of People are still being saved today using English, Chinese, and Spanish etc., translations. The word of God was not given in English it has always been preserved in Hebrew and Greek and it is up to people of other languages with knowledge of Greek and Hebrew to deliver their people an accurate translation of what God said. It is not only the English that are improving their translations.
The new translations are not the cause of lukewarm Christians today. Lukewarm Christians only have themselves to blame. When we all appear before Jesus he is not going to give passes based on the translation they used. The question Jesus might ask is “what did you allow the Holy Spirit to do in your life to advance my kingdom?”
The older found texts have not changed one thing of importance in Christianity except confirm that the Bible that we have today has been accurately preserved over time. Well, come to think of it, it did bring one negative thing. It brought about the creation of the KJO sect that is so divisive that they even question the salvation of Christians who do do not read their own idolized translation.
It is dishonest and misinformed to imply that the Christian scholars are trying to give less accurate translations when in the major translations the opposite happens to be true.
The word of God will not be distorted in 20 years but perhaps there will be more translations that are distorted. Nevertheless, Christian scholars will certainly identify them, and warn of using them. That information is not likely to come out of the backwoods of North Carolina or someone who is not a Greek or Hebrew scholar.
My defense is of the King James Bible, NOT the KJO camp. As I stated in an earlier post, I believe Gail Riplinger to be a Satanic plant, and here’s my reason. The woman denied she was ever divorced. Well, we all now know that was a lie. She deliberately hid her credentials. That’s deception. She speaks anywhere that will pay her, regardless of their doctrinal position. Peter Ruckman is another. He has a bad attitude, foul mouth, wicked temper. Admitted in one of his books to have been possessed by an angel when he was 12 years old. Jack Hyles is another wicked man, who never divorced his wife, but kept a ‘concubine’ who divorced her husband who was a deacon at Hyles First Baptist Church. Those who defend these people need to go before The Lord in prayer and ask The Lord to grant them wisdom and discernment.
Now, consider this. When these people defend the King James bible the loudest, with their bad attitudes, adulterous life styles, mean spirited, possibly demon possessed, deliberately deceitful, Satanically prideful, what kind of message is being sent? Is it any wonder that the King James Bible is being maligned because of such cultic and immoral people ‘defending’ the King James Bible, when in fact it is having the opposite effect, which I believe was their intent all along? Not all who say, ” yea, yea, Lord, Lord…” are The Lord’s. We are to walk “…circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise,” (Eph. 5:15) That word, circum (circle) spectly (to inspect) means to walk in a circle around something, inspecting it to see if it’s real or not. We are to do this with everything, and especially when dealing with The Word of God.
Back in 1989, I was a brand new Christian attending a men’s bible study. We came to 1st John, 5:7-8. The only verse that states explicitly the Godhead (trinity). The NIV that the assistant pastor was using differed with the KJV pew bible I was using. The NIV had brackets around the verse with a footnote that stated, “Not found in the best mss.”(mss = manuscripts) I asked the assistant pastor if this verse is true or not? He said, “Well, many scholars think Erasmus or some over zealous scribe inserted that verse.” I had previously ordered some ancient Christian history books. And what do ya know! Guess what I found in “History of The Ancient Christians, by Jean Paul Perin, 1618” yes, the book was written in 1618. In that book is found a copy of the ancient Christian document known as the “Nobla Lecon” (Noble Lesson). It is dated within the text of the document itself as “Year of our Lord AD 1100” It was originally written in an old Flemish dialect. In it’s doctrinal defense of the Godhead (Trinity), they quote…yes…1st John 5:7-8! Now…where did they get it? Not from Erasmus. He wouldn’t be born for another 400 years! AD 1100 also predates Peter Waldo’s birth by 40 years, so the Waldensians are not named after Peter Waldo. Wald is Germanic for forest. The document is housed in the British Museum. Now…I had prayed before I ordered those christian history books because I didn’t know if I could trust them. So I asked The Lord to guide me, and all of those 5 Christian history books have been a strong blessing! You cannot get that book anymore, sadly.
Most of the time, when the bible translators say, “not found in the best mss.” what they mean is that they’re not found in Sinaiticus or Vaticanus mss. Those two mss disagree with each other 30,000 times! Both are Roman Catholic creations. Sinaiticus was found by Tischendorf at St. Catherine’s Monastery at the base of Mt. Sinai in Egypt, in waste basket. Study the history of those two manuscripts. Also study about the ‘Letter of Aristeas’ concerning the Septuagint (LXX).
Every single time I ask The Lord Jesus to show me and guide me into all truth, HE DOES! Not all at once, but over time, as The Lord wants us to study to show thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. ” 2 Tim 2:15
I find this strange. The Old Testament was written in Hebrew because it was written to Israel. The New Testament was written in Greek, because it was written to the whole world who spoke Greek at that time. Then, in 1611 came the Authorized Version aka King James, written in English because God knew that the whole world would speak English. All bibles in other languages are acceptable if they are faithful translations of God’s Word.
Revelation 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, AND HAST KEPT MY WORD, and hast not denied my name.
My bible has no brackets with footnotes that cause one to doubt if they have God’s Word or not. Does yours? Some trust translators, others trust The Lord Jesus.
Frank Ebell, I do not think the KJV needs a defense it is a very good translation but you are correct to see that many of these KJO people seem to actually be plants that bring criticism to churches that use the KJV.
The main problem I have with the KJV is that we do not use all the same words or speak that way anymore. Over five hundred words have changed their meaning since that version was written. That is part of the reason why I prefer to read the NKJV. However, when searching the scriptures on the Internet I use the KJV because it is free and I also have access to Strong’s (which is not perfect either).
I am not going to comment on most of what you said because if you are wrong that should come from someone that is actually a text scholar. However, I would be shocked if the NKJV said “not found in the best mss” and was referring to the Sinaiticus or Vaticanus mss. I do know that you do not get the truth by just listening to any one side of an argument. I do agree that the NIV is not the best version to use for the reasons I already mentioned in a previous comment.
By the way Frank, the whole world does not speak English, never has and never will, but the KJV was the major translation for reaching the world in the last few centuries since it was much easier to translate the KJV into other languages than it is to translate God’s word from old Hebrew and Greek manuscripts. There is no question that the Holy Spirit was in the creation of the KJV. Nonetheless, the Holy Spirit is still in bible translators today and they do translate from the original manuscripts into other languages today. Perhaps the Holy Spirit wants the Chinese and Spanish translations to be the main translations used today since most of the souls being converted today speak those languages.
The KJV was not directly inspired or there would be no errors in it at all and there is no doubt that there are errors or they would not have made revisions.
Therefore, there is nothing wrong with brackets with footnotes. They often clarify what God said in His word. If you are reading English, the facts are, that you trusted translators to accurately bring you God’s word. That is true with all translations including the KJV.
Thank you Don for your kindly reply, unlike so many these days. What I meant by the whole world speaking English is that English in most countries is required in their schools, and that you can always find someone who speaks English, no matter if you’re in Russia or Zimbabwe. I’m from Philadelphia and now live in South Carolina, and to my surprise, there are some who speak English here also…lol (bad joke)
I know that the KJV was not inspired, but I do believe that The Holy Spirit was the guide of the KJV translators. I reject the nonsense that Peter Ruckman says the English corrects the Greek, as though God would make mistakes with a language that He created! What nonsense! (i’m being kind)
I do not and never have followed the writings of one man or source. I will never place any man on a pedestal that is reserved for God and God only. No matter how much I may respect someone, if they are wrong, they are wrong! period. I hold no man in high admiration. I check all sources, and have read quite a few books on this matter. Real books, the ones you have to actually hold in your hands and turn the pages…lol…unlike e-books.
However, I will say that I reject modern bible versions for many reasons which I will not go into here on your blog for fear of causing any problems. I wasn’t going to post my last statement for that reason, but I did anyway…mia culpa…my bad…lol
But again, thank you for a civilized reply that is so rare these days…thank you brother 🙂
Hey, I have a ebook and it is a real book. At least I think so 😉
Anyway, thanks for your input to this topic.
Perhaps you found it equally incredible that the son of a carpenter refuted the religious scholars of His day and changed the world. Or that He chose fishermen and publicans for friends and ambassadors.
I think you know too little about your Bible and the “great biblical scholars” who are often worlves in sheep’s clothing. Maybe you should look at the fruits of their leadership – if you don’t recognize Sodom and Gomorrah, then maybe you’re blind as they are.
If you examine the distinctions in the Greek mss evidence, the taint of Gnosticism is evident to anyone with even modest discernment.
I hardly put Gail Riplinger on the same level of Jesus but you apparently do.
I know there are great translations of the Bible and those that are not so great. I also know the Alexandrian family of texts could have a taint of Gnosticism but that is why they are no longer the version favored by modern Bible translators. When she criticizes the New King James and all the modern versions she is often criticizing a version based on the same Textus Receptus as the King James but even the King James translators looked at other families of manuscripts while favoring the Textus Receptus. Translators will use what is available to help them translate the words correct. There really was only a small window of time when the Alexandrian family texts were more favored than the Textus Receptus and they were favored because they were older manuscripts believed to be closer to the original not because worlves in sheep’s clothing were trying to corrupt the Bible. You act if these translations are done by one person and there is no peer review. That is not the case for the best translations. Scholars are still learning about the texts and the proper translations of ancient words so no translation of the Bible is inerrant and it is why they all word their translations somewhat differently but in spite of the word differences the passage almost always conveys the same meaning. No matter which texts were favored in the popular translations there is no essential doctrine of the faith corrupted. Riplinger really strains and gnats and swallows camels in her criticisms.
The reason people of the world reject what the Bible teaches and have become like Sodom and Gomorrah is not because of the modern translations and the translators it is because people reject God and love to sin. They love the world. Many people do not follow the teachings of the King James translation that they were taught either.
CT said inresponse to this;
>Why would God “Inspired” a humanist Catholic to write the TR
One doesn’t ‘write’ a biblical manuscript, one edits a manuscript (and there is a further difference between an edited manuscript and a *constructed* manuscript). Erasmus lived prior to the Reformation (he was an old man when Luther took a hammer to that church door). A Romanist can see the light (as the first generation reformers themselves did) Learn history. On the other hand the Romanist provenance and use of the corrupt manuscripts is explicit and can be seen in the central strategy of Roman Beast counter-Reformation activity itself. History exposes Critical Text propaganda, this is why they don’t want you knowing history.
You really have no excuse. Christians have disabused you guys over and over of your Critical Text notions and propaganda. That you still cling to the devil’s line shows that what is hindering you from accepting the truth is beyond anything we Christians can do to help you. You need regeneration that can only come from the Word and the Spirit. Ask God for it. Humbly.
Amen! Not surprised you are banned! This is only a foretaste of what is to come when one stands up for the pure Word of God! So true man in general in these last dark and dangerous days does not let God speak to him, but instead chooses what he would like to be said to him. They can just take their choice, which one suits? One day these people will get a shock when they stand before a thrice Holy God and give an account for blaspheming His Holy Word, and believing what man has said in the place of what God has said. These things as you said can only be spiritually discerned, so as these people have made up their minds, it is a waste of time unless they experience the regeneration of the Spirit of God, and come into the fellowship of His Son! We have been warned that there would be scoffers in the last days, men of corrupt minds, having a form of godliness, but denying the power therof, from such turn away! God will reward you for standing up for His Truth in these wicked days in which we live. If the Word of God cannot touch their conscience, then nothing you or I will have any affect, so best to leave them to their own devices. So sad the consequence for these blind leaders of the blind, but we are warned in Scripture that the last days would be marked by apostasy, prior to the Lord’s coming, so “look up, as your redemption draweth nigh.”
Jennifer,
The comments you made was a bunch of bullcrap. I am surprise that Don did not banned you either. Men write manuscripts by copying down from older manuscripts. Some may have corrected punctuation or whatever but they did not “edit” a manuscript that was already produced. I would also like to know why you call conspiracy stories as “history” for?
You really need to educate yourself on the history of Bible translations. Going to some of the links that me and Don provided are a great place for you to get started. Also here is a book written by Dr. James White on this issue that you might like to check out. http://www.aomin.org/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=44
You are making accusations and name calling. Where’s your substance? You claim she needs “formal training” in the Bible? Are you kidding? The pharisees and scribes were formally trained and Jesus said “Beware of the scribes (Matt. 23; Mk. 12:38; Lk. 20:46).
Gail Riplinger’s works are dividing Christians? Are you crazy? This is no defense for Gail. I saw the errors of the new versions many years before hearing her name and have never read her books. If you don’t see the errors and obvious un-inspiration of the new versions, you are blind and need to truly turn your heart to the LORD so He can remove the veil that is blinding you (2 Cor. 3:14-16).
Anyone can type up a website. That gives you no authority Don. Your stance is erroneous and misleading.
How can you justify the thousands of omissions that of the perverted versions which all come from the corrupted, minority manuscripts? No one needs Gail Riplinger to know that.
If you are promoting James White, it reveals your apostate heart.
James White is a full blown wolf for many reasons, including that he ardently defends the NIV which is completely perverted. The cast of diabolical clowns assembled to do the NIV translation alone makes that fact obvious.
You need to get saved man.
Justin, we shall be judged by our works according to Revelation and why? BECAUSE what works you do or don’t do clearly prove what is in your heart. Lip service is all you have if you don’t have good fruit/works.
Jesus said people, namely those who profess they know God, “by their fruits.” (Matt. 7:16, 20)
“Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance.” Matt 3:8 Those who have truly repented have good fruit in their lives to prove it. All who don’t, have not truly repented.
How are men known? – “Even a child is known by his doings, whether his work be pure, and whether it be right.”
Prov 20:11
What did Jesus say of the Judgment Day blues “many” will experience?
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that DOETH the will of my Father which is in heaven.” Matt 7:21
Would you like to argue with the Son of God?
Hell awaits all who don’t have saving faith which is ALWAYS accompanied by good works and good fruits.
“They profess that they know God; but IN WORKS THEY DENY HIM, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.” Titus 1:16
I just got three comments in a few hour period on a post 20 months old. So I have to wonder what or who put these men up to it?
Graham, the substance is all over this post. When you talk about new versions which ones are you even talking about? I know some of the new versions are not to be recommended for serious study but when Riplinger calls the NKJV a New Age version she is frankly loony. The New King James is just a good update of the King James. You do know that the KJ has been updated many times don’t you? If anyone would just read the preface on the NKJV they tell you exactly what they did and why they did it.
If my stance against Riplengers nonsense is erroneous and misleading how do explaining the stance of almost every manuscrpt expert that ever read her work. They say the same thing about Gail Riplinger claims? James White was just one of many I could have quoted.
Many of the mostly one word omissions are omissions because they are not in the best manuscripts of the original languages, again what version are you even talking about? In any case, what she implies was taken out on purpose is expressed elsewhere in these Bible versions so their is no conspiracy to remove anything. What difference does it make if the lord is called the Lord in the Bible in 6749 places in the King James or 6500 places in another version where they picked Master or something else instead of lord but is it nonsense like this that is the substance of her claims.
Samuel, is the typical legalist. He claims I need to get saved because I disagree with much of what Riplinger claims. People like him have no discernment so you cannot even talk to them.
As for the NIV. I do not recommend the NIV, there are certainly better more literal translation but it was good enough for the Southern Baptists for decades until they no longer wanted to pay the royalties. Nor do I agree with everything James White says, but James White does gets some things correct, as he does here. By the way, I do not agree with everything anyone says, nor should you. To call everyone you disagree with a wolf in sheep’s clothing leaves you alone among a select few of legalistic sheep. These sheep act more like wolves than sheep. They are always telling sheep they need to get saved because they can critically think while they themselves just believe doctrines fed to them from their leaders that really act more like cult leaders.
Gregory, salvation is not based on works. Christians will be judged on what they did in their bodies but it is a judgment of rewards or taking away of rewards. If someone gets saved this second and dies the next without any good works He will still be saved.
Math 7-16 20 is telling Israel how they can identify a false prophet. It is not saying you can know who is a Christian by their fruit. Oh..how some people love to rip versus’ out of their context to prove their own legalism.
Yes, Christians should produce good fruit, but good fruit is Spirit led. Without salvation first there are no works of the Spirit and there can be no fruit. What is good fruit in your eyes is not the same as good fruit in the Lord’s eyes anyway. Who made you the produce judge of God’s trees? Some figs like pretty ugly on the outside by their fruit is sweet.