Sometimes I just have to laugh at the harebrained ideas about how to deal with Obama and our increasing national debt. For example, there is one idea that is now being pushed by Joseph Farah of WorldNetDaily (WND). Farah’s solution to save America from fiscal calamity is for the Republican House to not vote to allow any raising of the national debt limit.
At the end of Farah’s various featured articles on this subject, Mr. Farah asks, “where am I going wrong on this? Can someone enlighten me?” Yeah, I will enlighten Mr. Farah because not raising the national debt limit is a recipe for national suicide. Farah’s solution seems more like a house formula for national euthanasia than a cure for America’s fiscal calamity.
First a bit of the background on the articles. Farah, in a earlier article defined what he thinks a real Conservative is, and then he suggests that any true Conservative would support not raising the national debt limit anymore like he does. Farah, has told us many times in many articles that he is not a Conservative. Yet, he thinks he not only can define what real conservatives should believe, he believes he can tell them what any real Conservatives would support. Further, Farah implies that all Republicans in the House of Representatives that support raising the national debt limit are phony conservatives (along with the people that elected them).
As far as I know most true Conservatives are not out of their mind. Most Conservatives know what would happen in the United States if we suddenly were limited to spend no more than the revenue we took in, in this economy.
Farah, also assumes that Obama could do nothing if the national debt limit were not raised but that simply is not the case. For example, the Fed could just print the money and lend it to the U.S. Treasury. Or consider this. The likely outcome of the House refusing to raise the national debt ceiling would be riots all over the United States (see below). With the authority that Congress has already given to Obama under emergency powers, He could then declare martial law and suspend the Constitution and rule by decree.
Why would there be riots and martial law if the debt ceiling were not raised? Because many things that people depend on would go unfunded. One third of all current federal spending is paid for by adding it to the national debt. Therefore, all federal expenditures would have to be cut by one third. It could not just be cut by a third across the board because some programs are more critical than others.
Congress could not just cut agencies that they did not want because that would require a bill and it would never get past Obama’s veto. They could not just rewrite the budget either. So, what would really happen is that all agencies critical to the Obama administration would be funded and all other agencies would either shut down or run short of money and partially shut down. Even interest on the U.S. debt probably would not be paid and if that happened the U.S. would go into default probably causing a collapse of the world financial system or at least the collapse of the dollar.
But, let’s humor Farah a bit and say that national spending could actually be reduced by one third by some magic non act of the House. What would a reduction of one third of federal spending across the board mean to Americans?
Here are only a few examples of what would take place if the national debt ceiling is not raised:
– Social Security, Medicare, and Veterans compensations set in law would run out of funds. One third of the time people would get IOU’s but a court order would soon change that and the funds would have to come from somewhere else.
– Military spending would have to be reduced by a third. We would not even have the funds for a orderly withdrawal of our troops from the world.
– One third of the Federal work force would have to be eliminated. Federal retirees also have their pay set in law, the funds would have to come from other programs .
– The Federal funding of unemployment benefits would run out of funds.
– One third of all federal prisons would need to close and a third of all prisoners would have to be released
I think you are getting the picture. About 2 million people would be instantly added to the unemployment roles and many people would have benefits like food stamps that they are now dependent on instantly taken away. The cuts would cause a great depression and there certainly would be riots in the streets.
The other alternative is that income taxes would have to double, but first Congress and Obama would have to be willing to agree to pass a doubling of the income tax or something like a value added tax. If that were passed in this economy that would also cause a great depression and bring riots in the streets.
What House Representative could even get reelected in 2012 after pulling that stunt?
So forget about the Farah delusion solution to save America from fiscal calamity. It cannot happen. It would be the end of our nation as a first world nation.
In my next post, I will tell you what I think is the only way that America can solve its high unemployment, falling wages and long term debt problem and she could do it rather rapidly. My solution might even seem more bazaar than Farah’s idea to save America from a fiscal calamity, but mine will work, and even if it does not work out, it will not cause riots in the streets and the end of America as a Superpower. I think what I will suggest as a solution would insure that America stays a superpower for as long as God wills. Nonetheless, I am not saying that you will like what I will suggest or that my plan to save America will be bullet proof.
Let’s see; how about freeze prices and wages, cut spending, raise taxes to pay down the debt? Somebody tell me why we must save America and maintain our superpower status? I am weary of political thinking that maintains the US is the end all and be all of the Gentile nations. I doubt we will climb up out of the perfect storm that is brewing all around us, there being at least half a dozen senarios which can topple our once great nation the rapture being one of them. Lets focus on what we, as Christians, should be doing according to Jesus. That would be storing up treasures in heaven not here, making disciples, going into all the world with the gospel, praying for workers for the harvest fields and making ourselves ready for the bridegroom’s return and praying that we will escape the wrath to come. America is doomed, if for no other reason than our abandonment of Israel. War over Jerusalem is on the horizon but I’m getting off topic. Maranatha
Don, As usual good post.
I understand what you are saying but raising the debt ceiling is just “kicking the can” down the road for an inevitable end result of riots, explosion of the debt, and needing to cut the govt by 1/3 (or I suspect over 1/2 by the time we have 200+% of debt to GDP ratio). OK they can go ahead and raise the debt ceiling, it will make us “stable” for now, but ultimately, 100% of the time, governments who do this (have debt exceed 100% of GDP) default anyway and you have hyperinflation. So do it now or do it later. If you do it now you got pain, if you wait til later (lets say 10yrs) then the pain is 100x worse. I predict they raise the debt ceiling to oblivion then ultimately default on all the debt and we become a banana republic anyway.
Karl Denninger writes on this topic. “The Market Ticker” blog. He has some solid data on this exact topic. What do you think of this one?
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=176364
What do you think about this?
Look forward to reading your solution.
I’m curious to read your solution, Don. But, As Eric said above, raising the debt ceiling is simply “Kicking the Can” a little farther. It’s just “business as usual”. If Congress had a gonad between them they would have let the “too big to fail” fail. That would have been a hard kick in the gut for the country, but by now we’d have worked through most of the toxic debt and have pointed our collective noses toward recovery. Ah, hindsight! As it stands, this non-economist sees little hope to eliminate the mountain of debt short of default. Iceland seems to have made the correct move, as it turns out. Congress, however, after a lots of showmanship and empty rhetoric, will raise the debt ceiling because to not do it, as you say, will crash the economy. Business as usual . . . again. And I will be disappointed . . . again. The economy will crash and burn. Civil war may follow, and that may not be bad. Tom Jefferson would likely approve. Some silver and gold might be handy to own about now, if you can afford it. But if money is tight, buy a Big Berkey and get out of debt.
You guys will have to wait until late tomorrow before you get my solution since I will be away most of today.
Ammi, price freezes only make things worse. Besides, if you believe government overall prices are not rising anyway. Cutting spending will help some but you can only cut so much and stay in office or not create riots. Raising taxes in a weak economy is a sure way to a depression so that is not the answer.
There is no reason that America has to be a superpower but as of now I can think of no other nation that I would want leading the world. Sure, God can topple this nation or any nation anytime He wants but if that is not his plan yet then God will give people solutions to fix the problems. For example Jimmy Carter had America on the ropes but Ronald Regan found solutions
We always should be focusing on what we can do as Christians to get out the gospel message but also remember that God made America free and prosperous so that we could. God allowed us to defeat tyranny in the past so that other nations could be free to hear the gospel message. Too bad these same states are now freely choosing to reject Him. But there are other nations that still need to hear the gospel and if America is to continue in the role as a place from where missionaries come to give the gospel to other nations she will have to remain prosperous and free(I am not saying that will be the case).
Most of the American people have not abandoned Israel at all. Some in government would like to do that but they ultimately will answer to us.
Eric and Doug,
Raising the debt limit may or may not be kicking the can down the road. Its not the dollar amount of the debt that is important it is the percent of GDP. The debt limit often has gone up but the percentage of the GNP has gone down at the same time. Yeah we should never have got into debt but we did. So we have to deal with that. Obviously we cannot keep raising the debt limit if there is no growth in GDP. So the solution to our debt problem can only come from how to produce growth and increase revenues without increasing tax burdens.
There is now only one way to get that kind of growth for us to prevent default. I will talk about that in my next post. I do agree that it is better to default now while we are strong if we have no solutions for our problem. However, we are not Iceland. We are the largest consumer nation in the world, if we default the whole world will go into a great depression. Nevertheless, I think there is still one solution, but that solution has to be explained in a rather long story. Not that I am expecting the American people to follow my solution.
What I see as most likely, is that if they don’t raise the debt ceiling by April, government will shut-down (temporarily). The workers will not get paid during that interim of time. But the national media spin will be very strong against those uncooperative Republicans. Finally after a lot of anger and pressure from the national media coverage, congress will then go ahead and raise the debt ceiling — and all those government workers who didn’t get paid during the shut-down will still get paid, a paid vacation. But the Republicans will have completely lost any advantage, any favor, they once had. This is similar to what happened when the Republicans refused to go along with Democrats and the media during Clinton’s term; the government shut-down for a short time, but the Republicans lost political advantage because of what they had done.
As to how to cut government spending– the elephant in the room is Medicare, with Social Security following it. I read somewhere recently, that Medicare alone accounted for over half of government spending. All the other places that could be cut would hardly make a dent compared to that monstrosity. But with the baby boomer generation set to retire soon, we all know that Medicare (and Soc. Security) will not be cut.
That is correct, I was in government at the time. But, it was not a paid vacation for us that were in critical positions. Your analysis of the situation is correct. the Republican Congress will be blamed by the media for any shutdown and they know it. That is why it probably will not happen and should not happen. You don’t go all in when your opponent knows you have a losing hand. You’re also right about the elephant in the room but also watch out for the smaller jackasses because they are trashing the room right now.
GDP is a poor indicator of economic health. Remember that the GDP = private consumption + gross investment + government spending + (exports ? imports). If the goverment spends enough, it can prop up the GDP, while the private sector is dying. Also gross investment does not differentiate between good and mal-investment. Mal-investment is a huge problem according to Austrian theory of ecomonics (which I believe most closely explains reality). Our economy needs to be contracted on a large scale. Our recent prosperity has been fueled by debt, which has to be corrected. If I make 100K a year, but live a 500K a year lifestyle, then I my standard is fueled by debt and needs contraction. Same hold true for our economy as a whole. Raising the debt ceiling is an immediate necessity to avoid chaos, but it is not the right thing to economically to correct the underlying problem. In fact, this action will worsen the calamity and insure our decline (if not destruction). The justification to raising the debt ceiling cover our cost until the economy comes roaring back and generates enough revenue to offset the cost. This might work in a healthier economy, but not ours that is overcapacity concerning debt and malinvestment.
Mark
If our economy is contracted on a large scale we will default on our debt and there will be world chaos. There simply is no way to correct our long term debt problem anymore because people in this nation will get rid of any politicians or laws that force the required pain on them and if it is somehow forced on them they will riot and loot. I agree that whatever our politicians do within their present mindset to try to get our economy roaring back will not work because that simply cannot happen before inflation and rising interest rates shuts any expansion down again.
Well, there is one unorthodox way to correct the expansion and debt problem and I will be suggesting that soon.
I got a way Don. How about we impose tarriffs on china for one. Next we stop all benifits to illegal aliens they can become legalized and work or we can show them the door. Next we get out of the middle east or grow the cajones to do what needs to be done then we get out. Ik that we cannot realisticly win this war without staying there indefinitly. There will always be more terrorists. Next we drill our own oil. Then we cut welfare benefits to force the lazy people to get a job. Welfare is ok for a little while but we can’t afford to give it to people forever. This would save trillions.
You have some good ideas but you also would start a trade war. Even if we did all that you suggested it would still be too little too late to save us from the debt bomb that is coming.
Stay tuned. I am now having fun writing the solution.
Don,
You are 100% correct in describing what we have as a “debt bomb”. I am intrigued as to your solution, as I do not see a way out except for default or hyperinflation to pay the debt.
OK Don, you have sufficiently peaked my interest. 🙂
I cant believe how in the dark you people are on this subject…I thought God’s people were supposed to have wisdom. If you want real answers just listen to what Peter Schiff or Ron Paul has to say about it.
I do not think wisdom ends with Ron Paul, Peter Schiff or Joe Farah. The facts are that if you force the cuts that they want there will be riots and martial law and you will end up with even more government control.
If the American people really want to deal with their debt they will have to choose to be much less selfish. But, does anyone see the “Me Generation” making such choices?
Anyone can say they know how we should deal with the debt problem but getting the majority of the American people to buy into their views is another matter.
If people really want to change this nation they will defeat Obama in 2012 but frankly I do not see that happening, he is going up in the polls.
The House will become Obama and the mass media’s whipping boy if they do what these people suggest and the damage Obama did in the first term will be nothing compared to the damage that he will do in the second term.
Don, I apoligize for sounding disrespectful…that is certainly not what I was intending. You are absolutely right about what would happen if we do not raise the debt ceiling, but that is precisely what needs to happen if we are to hit the reset button and begin to bring this once great country back to our founding principles. At this point pain is inevitable but the more we delay it, the more we prolong it.
I agree that we need to deal with the problem very soon. I suggested awhile back that we hit the reset button by defaulting since we are going to do it anyway, if not openly, we will do it through a dollar crash. I suggested doing that in 2013 while we are still militarily strong because if we do it after we are on the ropes, we will be in great peril.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/america-should-lead-the-world-in-debt-default.html
I think if we then get our house in order many nations will still choose to trade with us. The real problem hits us when interest rates rise.I suggested we do the debt default in 2013 because that is the only realistic year we can do it. We first must have a new administration. Until then I expect interest rates to stay reasonable anyway.
Forcing government to downsize before a new administration can sell it to the American people, when we are just starting a weak recovery, is the worst way and timing to do it. Also, these people do not deal with the outstanding national debt that will still be a problem even if government is forced to downsize. Besides, as I said in this article this administration will find a way around a debt ceiling freeze and if they don’t it will bring complete disorder because congress will not get anything at all passed to make it orderly.
Republicans and Tea Party people need to work on defeating Obama in 2012 and not taking action that will be unpopular and thus defeating themselves. You do not take people into battle when you have no way of winning. If the American people will not accept huge cuts then the only way to deal with our problem is through population expansion. I deal with that in my next post.
https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/saving-america-from-selfishness-by-extending-the-american-dream-to-others.html
Don, A little off subject here but Im just curious as to whether or not you believe 9/11 was an inside job.
The whole concept that 9/11 was done or aided by our government is totally nuts.
Having said that, because of the attack many Americans were willing to give up freedoms for security and let their representatives in Washington pass programs and create departments like Homeland Security that do exactly that. This is not the first time in history where our government took emergency powers. If we ever get into another world war it is inevitable that Americans will be under almost total control of government.
The way out of the debt problem is simple. Eliminate the Bush tax cuts, raise tax on capital gains to at least 30%, tax estate income the same as earnings after a free 2 million per couple, eliminate the tax loop holes and the tax subsidies to corporations. Then raise the highest rates to 42% on incomes over 1 million, 45% on incomes over 5 million, and 48% on incomes over 15 million. Also, end the insane wars.
Jim,
I see, make the capital gains tax the highest in the world and expect businesses to expand and revenues to increase in the United States 😆
I suppose you will want them to wait until after the depression is over to implement those tax increases of yours? But if government plans what you suggest hell will freeze over before the depression ends because there will be a mass flight of businesses to countries where taxes are low and unemployment in the US will rise and income to run the government will actually fall.
I also surmise that you are in an income bracket where you pay little or no taxes and want other people to carry your load. I wonder how you expect government to continue to pay your entitlements when their revenue is falling? Oh I know! Borrow more money and just increase taxes some more to pay for it etc., etc.
Here is a better solution to solve the debt and spending problem. Do away with all taxes and just make a flat tax of 20 percent on all retail sales and make all Federal government live within its revenue.
Jim ,
There should be no estate tax at all , that money has already been taxed when it was earned.
Also ALL INCOME should be taxed at a flat rate, capital gains or any other kind of income should be taxed at the ordinary income (wages and salaries)rate. I loved Don’s idea of a flat rate sales tax and live within our means. There are not enough working people to support those
who refused to work , they think government should support them. I understand it’s a tough job
market, however there are jobs. I know one person who works 3 part time jobs , but she’s supporting herself. Is is hard , sure it is , but I believe God’s helps those who help themselves and acknowledge Him. BLESSINGS to YOU!!!!!!!!!!
Hi Don Fritts,
I do agree that there should be a flat tax. I remember when Steve Forbes ran for President, that was his big slogan “10% flat tax for all, no loopholes for the wealthy”, of course, he didn’t make it very far and that was a different time.
“God helps those who help themselves”, from what I’ve read is not Biblical and I think it is a limiting statement for the Lord God.
The job market is not the same for all, but in small towns, especially, there are often minimal jobs available. Some companies in the smaller towns post jobs out of requirement, but the jobs are really not open to the public, they are already accounted for internally or often, they already know who they are going to hire…or, you have a job fair scenario where 300-500 people are applying for 3 lowly jobs.
On the same note, entitlements are not always attainable either.
In another words, with exception, there are no options for some right now.
I do not think there should be a flat income tax. I believe we should have a flat consumption tax called a Fair Tax of 20 percent. If you don’t consume anything you would pay no tax. Hucklebee ran on the Fair Tax last time. I was against that then because I thought it would reduce consumption and bring about a recession. At this point doing away with income taxes and replacing it with a consumption tax is the only possibility of getting businesses to risk an expansion and to move companies back to America.
David ,
I agree with you that God helps tose who help themselves is not a Bible verse. I was trying to point out that some people expect God to do everything for them while they do nothing to improve their situation. I am very familiar with internal hiring practices as I used them more than once when I was a hiring manager at Northrop Grumman. You learn very quickly not to let the
personnel office pick employees for you. I believe you live in Californis . I used to pick up
aluminum cans , plastic and glass bottles just as an experiment to see if I could make any extra money doing it, made $70.00 in one week recycling. I harbor no bias against people who can’t find work , it’s those who won’t try that annoy me. Recently I put a new fence around my
property , the owner of the fence company told me it is difficult to hire employees because many don’t want to work outside in heat or cold weather. I admit I have was always extremely blessed in finding well paying jobs, but some people will not do anything to help themselves.
Don
I don’t expect the income tax to go away and I believe we eventually have a VAT or consumption
tax in addition to the income tax. I agree with your idea because it’s fair to everyone and
everyone would have to pay something.
Don,
Other than a Biblical revival, I think that is the #1 key that must be addressed if the U.S. is to return to prosperity…to make it feasible & profitable for companies of all sizes to start back up in the U.S. through government enhancement (just by getting out of the way) not discouragement.
I am not against a VAT tax as most European countries have. However, how then do the states, counties, and cities get revenue, as they usually rely on sales tax? But I still believe a progressive tax is best. “To those unto whom much is given, much is expected”, or something like that. The wealthiest 1 and 2 percent have been making out like bandits since 1980. Since then the wealthiest 1 percent have seen an average income raise of 250 percent, while the bottom 1/5 has actually seen about a 10 percent reduction. Taxes are now at the lowest since 1950, particularly on the very wealthy. I believe it is time for them to pay their fair share. I can remember when the top nominal rate was 91 percent. It is now 35 percent. I remember that the Bush tax cuts were hyped as necessary to create jobs. Where are the jobs? If tax cuts to the wealthy create jobs, we should be awash in jobs.
Jim,
I am against a VAT tax it really sucks. I lived in Europe and it really sucks, most things cost two to three times what they do here because of that VAT.
How would state and local governments get revenue under a Fair Tax? That still should be up to the state and local governments. If you do not like the taxes in New York you can always change politicians or change states.
Jim, it is not helpful to use Bible passages out of proper context. “To whom much is given much is required” is talking about people using their spiritual gifts for the sake of the agenda of the coming King. It is not talking about embracing a forced progressive government tax system. If you want to use that as an application for being a good steward of your finances it could only be applied to what is given out of your own free will. Nobody is stopping anyone from freely giving their money away.
I agree that 1 or 2 percent of the people control a lot of wealth in this nation but if you tax them too much they will take their money and go to another country. That is not going to help us here. Besides rich people create a lot of jobs. If you increased the taxes on the rich it is not going to help revenues as much as you think. You’re talking about tens of billions and we need tens of trillions to get out of debt. Half of this country pays no income taxes at all and if all people only payed 20 percent on what they purchased the problem would be solved if government did not spend more. And no, the prices of products would not go up 20 percent because small businesses would have less taxes and therefore they would be able to lower prices quite a bit. You also overlook the fact that the biggest charitable foundations in the world are funded by that one percent of rich folks like Bill Gates. Nobody takes their money with them.
I remember the days of 90 percent income tax. The truly rich got around it by growing empires. Besides, the Eisenhower years was not a high growth period. The economy really started to grow when JFK cut taxes and it progressed since then because cutting taxes has always produced more growth. Britain on the other hand in the same period retained high taxes for the rich and most of the rich and educated came here.
Where are the jobs then if taxes on the rich are now low? They went to China thanks to U.S. globalist liberal policies. It is still far more lucrative to build a factory in China than it is here. We still have almost the highest corporate tax rate in the world.
Hi again Don Fritts,
I’m sure you know by the same news I read that there are record home foreclosures in a lot of places in the U.S., the account of formerly successful individuals and families that now live in their cars, the graduates of college’s who are struggling to get a job, let alone one accordant to their degree, and the list goes on.
The one profession that still seems to be booming right now is the medical profession. An RN whom I know personally, told me that it is very flooded, though, I can’t confirm that with official news.
As the population ages and physicians retire there is going to be a great shortage of doctors. Of course it it is easier to become a nurse but there are plenty of jobs for nurses and various techs in most locations and that is likely to continue. Nevertheless, many nurses burnout in a few years so they need to have a calling.
Yeah, I’ve heard that (burnout) about nurses…from nurses themselves. It sounds quite demanding.
Don, isn’t it true of most professions that the elders age and retire or are doctors at a premium ? I guess it would figure beings that there are so many middle eastern doctors.
So, what you seem to be saying is that we need to reduce our standard of living to where the average Jane/Joe makes what the Chinese make (about $50 a week), then the corporatists would build factories here. All, I was saying was that the rationale for giving the huge tax cuts to the very wealthy was to create jobs, but that did not happen. So, I don’t think increasing their tax a bit would hurt anything.
David ,
My oldest son is a nurse , he normally works 12 hour shifts 3 to 4 days a week. He tells me
nursing school is very very hard. He loves his work , he says some do burn out because there
is no free time at work , have to be always on the alert for almost anything.
Hey’ya Don Fritts,
Yeah, as someone (me) who has responsibility for the elderly, I believe it.
As a profession, I would think nursing would require a very selfless person, one who loves tending to others to succeed at it over the long term.
David,
It takes a lot of training to become a doctor. There simply are not many that can even qualify for a medical school and then getting through an internship and two or three years of residency is required but there are not enough residency slots and getting through residency means low pay and very long hours if you even get through it and some don’t.
After that you still have to pass a comprehensive test to become board certified. By the time you get through it all you are $150,000 in debt and usually almost 40 years old. After that you have to go work for a hospital or medical group because few can make it on their own anymore with all the overhead required to comply with insurance and Medicare and Medicaid paper work and the regulations.
Then the hospitals and medical groups require doctors to see 20 to 25 people a day because that is the only way they can break even because insurance, Medicare and Medicare dictate what they can charge. Also, most doctors are on call on some evenings and weekends and some do hospital rounds.
Many doctors are giving it up and many are retiring. Few practicing doctors advise anyone to become a doctor anymore. I think the estimate is that there will be a shortage of 125,000 primary care doctors in about ten years. So we have seen the peak in this country in medical care. The future for many if not most will be to be diagnosed and treated by a less skilled nurse practitioner or physician assistant.
Hi Don,
So I guess that means that we will continue to see the influx of doctors from India and other middle east countries then.
Jim,
I said nothing about reducing our standard of living to that of the Chinese I just told you were the jobs went. There are other ways to get the jobs here and that is to make the U.S. business friendly and to make sure the rules are not tilted to favor the Chinese. A fair tax will help do that. Actually the tax cuts did create jobs. The reason for the financial collapse was that everyone was gambling and living beyond their means. The reason why the tax cuts after that did not help us is that small businesses are not going to expand in a country that is heading into socialism and a country that will do nothing about the un-level playing field with China and a country that will do nothing about our energy dependence and a country that wants to tax carbon etc etc. In other words, Obama and the far left are the problem. Taxing the rich a bit more solves nothing.
Don ,
My son tells me that he believes we will see an increase in nurse practioners and physcian’s
assistants with only the most seriously ill patients being seen by medical doctors in the future years.
Don Fritts,
I guess that statement by your son further demonstrates the shortage of doctors.
This country is a long ways from “heading into socialism”. I wish that we had more socialism. I,too, have lived in a couple of the social democracies of western Europe and there is a more more level playing field then we have, and people do not have to choose between eating and receiving needed medical care as is often the case here. In other words, the best system seems to me to be one that has enough capitalism to encourage entrepreneurship and enough socialism to provide a very good social safety net.
JIm,
The most socialist states of Western Europe now have to be bailed out by those that are less socialistic and because the people in these countries are hooked on the government giving them a free lunch the whole EU is about to collapse under socialistic programs that they cannot pay for. The people also have become enslaved to a ruling class. That is the inevitable fate of people that become slaves of government.
Also the implied choice between eating and getting medical care as if people have to make that choice here and not in Europe is a bunch of crap. You have been brainwashed by collectivist liars. We have a food stamp program here and one in seven people now receive them. Every town over a thousand people that I know of also has free food pantries where people can get food with few questions asked. We have shelters in every big city where people can also be fed. Take a look at the size of people in this country and you should see that the only ones starving are those that chose to. I know many people on the dole around here and they almost always can afford to drive around a $30,000 SUV’s or pickup truck. How do that do that? They take the money the government gives them for housing and support of their kids and instead of buying decent housing and supporting their kids they live in trash trailers and shacks and get their clothes in free stores and spend the money on their wants instead of what government gave them the money for. They have newer trucks, cell phones, high speed Internet, 200 TV channels with all the movies etc etc.
As for medicine. The poor and disabled qualify for Medicaid and people over 65 get Medicare in this country. We also have sliding scale clinics in just about every county in this nation and if people cannot pay they do not pay. We also have totally free clinics where medical people volunteer their own time with no questions asked. Further, anyone can get treatment in this country by just walking into an emergency room regardless if they can pay or not. Hospitals by law can’t refuse them. 17 percent of our GNP goes toward medical care in this country where it is only about 10 percent in Europe. So obviously people are getting medical treatment.in this country.
In contrast, in places like Great Britain where they have complete socialize medical care it is substandard and it is rationed. Many people are refused by a government board that decides who lives and who dies. We do not want that kind of system here. If that is the socialism you want we can’t afford it.
Where is the documentation that all the social democracies are going belly up? Germany and France, and the most socialized country of all: Sweden, are all doing better than the USA.
Also, if people going hungry in the USA is a bunch of crap, why does the USA have the highest rate of hungry children in the industrialized world?
Methinks, Don, you are the brainwashed one! All the studies show that France has the best medical care in the world. Here, sure, you can go to the emergency room when the problem gets bad enough, and then wait and wait and wait and wait and often die waiting, instead of having the ability to catch the problem earlier with single payer care. Why do 94% of Canadians love their health care system, while only 60% of American think our system is good? Enslaved to government?? I hardly think. But, I suppose being enslaved to Corporate profits is far better?
Jim,
Germany is hardly socialist and France pays for it with a 60 percent tax.on their income, do you really want to go there? If Europe had to provide for their own self defense over the last 50 years they would not be doing quite as well as they had. Besides, until recently they did not have a underclass of people that did not want to learn and work. Europe is heading for a civil war with its experiment in multiculturalism and their socialist labor unions and give away programs. That is all going to kick them in the teeth sooner than you think. Nobody said that socialism does not work for awhile, but it always fails because some will just sit back and let everyone else provide for them. Then the responsible people get taxed out of any incentive to work.
As for Sweden, Norway Germany etc. I lived there. They do not have the inner city problems (at least until they let the Muslims in) and the people there have a different mindset. They are not religious but the people there have a moral code and they are accountable to each other. They do not have much of a crime problem, those in schools are expect to learn rather than just be warehoused, and people there have a work ethic, they are also still family orientated. Sure, they have a strong government support system but they also are very capitalistic. Nevertheless, Europe has a demographics problem and that means they are going to get hit with the burden of taking care of the elderly and the high birth rate Muslim servants that they brought in to work for them very soon.
Also, presenting circular arguments proves nothing. I already said that the claim of large scale hunger in the United States is a lot of crap. Then you say why does the USA have the highest rate of hungry children in the industrialized world? We don’t., prove it with facts not rhetoric. If there is hunger in the United States it is only because the parents are using their kids money on their own toys. In other words, we have a lot of single parent that mainly think about number one before the kids. Poor people in this country get food stamps, tax credits, they get free lunches at schools and preschool,there are free food pantries and feeding shelters in every big city. Just where are all those hungry kids in America?? Are they among the third that are obese? Many of these people are double and tripling dipping on all the free food services.
If your going to an emergency room and waiting and waiting you are probably living in one of the inner cities and again the problem there is often single parents. They often cannot take care of their kids the way they should because they were never brought up with two parents themselves. Also, many emergency rooms have been put out of business by government socialistic regulations. Now, if you want to see that spread to every private clinic in the country continue down that road and you will be waiting a year to see even a nurse. Doctors are not going to stay doctoring if they are losing money because insurance companies and government force them to take fees that do not even pay the overhead. Besides, we do already have a free medical care system in this country for the poor it is called Medicaid so the poor can go to primary care clinics in this country. I do not know where you come up with this crap? Never mind I do, you listen to the lies of the Liberal mainstream media.
I have been a lot of place in this nation and have known many poor people and not one of them that I knew is going without food or medical care. In fact, their medical care seems to be better than mine because they get free procedures that would cost me big bucks. I am not for an insurance based medical system anyways, but I certainly don’t want government bureaucrats replacing them. I wrote my views on what we can do about medical care in this country a long time ago in this article. Basically the solution is cutting out the middle man. If we did, the price would drop almost in half.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/Health%20care%20in%20America%20is%20a%20national%20disgrace.htm
Why do 94 percent of Canadians love their health care system? First, I would dispute those figures and if you lived on the Canadian border you would know that the wealthy are coming to the U.S. for anything serious. Also, why do you use countries with small populations and large natural resources as the example of socialized medicine? Obviously a nation can have more social programs if they can pump the money out of the ground and spread the money across a fairly low population density. And if Canadians like socialism so much why did them just vote in a very conservative government?
By the way, I am not a proponent of predatory capitalism. I think these multi national corporations that have taken over much of America and the world should be broken up into much smaller businesses.
I won’t trouble you with any more facts, Don. I see you get your news from the Faux Noise Machine, Limbaugh, Hannity, etc. So, I’ll just agree to disagree and move on.
Thanks for your time.
Jim,
Like the typical socialist you do not really address the issues presented to you. Instead you just bring up more socialist disinformation rather than address the issues presented. When that fails it is time to attack the messengers like right out of the Saul Alinsky playbook. I do agree with truth tellers like Hannity and Limbaugh that do try to present the facts to the American people rather than the disinformation that comes from the liberal media. But, the plain truth is that I have only listened to them a total of about thirty times over the last five years. I do know how to find the facts and think for myself. Hey, don’t let the door hit you in the butt on the way out.
Don,
And I thought you made things so clear that even a liberal could understand it.