David Flynn’s “Temple at the Center of Time: Newton’s Bible Codex Deciphered and the Year 2012, is probably all very interesting but can you really tell significant biblical events on the earth from the distance from the Temple in nautical miles or feet?
As in the Bible Code, what we have here more likely than not, is selecting what supports the theory and ignoring what does not. If God was going to make a unified system of Bible prophecy everything would fit not just what the author choose to select.
I also do not believe the Millennial temple will be at the Temple Mount of Old Jerusalem. It is much too large. So what does that do to the exact measurements when you do not even know the exact point on the earth to measure from? Are you measuring from Ezekiel’s Millennial Temple or the ancient Temple Mount?
Was God using our modern calenders and nautical miles for events? That would not be likely. Why measure to London just because it took over that area of the world in 1917 and then apply London to the year 1948 because it is 1948 nautical miles to London? The British hindered the return of the Jews in the end, so it seems more fitting to me use the nautical miles to the UN in New York city should be used but that distance would not fit the 1948 theory. Why were Nautical miles used in one measurement and feet in another? Just because they fit?
The book is being compared to the “Bible Code” but as far as I am concerned the Bible Code has been adequately debunked. These theories all sound good because the author stacks the deck. Only after
the scholars and skeptics give their reason why the theory does not hold up is there any balance brought to the speculations. It is like going to court and only hearing the case against the defendant and not ever
hearing the defense. This is why those that give doctoral theses also have to give a defense of their thesis.
I have not read the book so I cannot comment on the details in it but I surmise that after the scholars critique the book it will fittingly join with the Bible code.
It seems that an awful lot of people have figured out a date for the start of the tribulation or the second coming. Many are jumping on the 2012 to 2019 bandwagon others are picking 2032 2033 as the return of the Lord. Did we not also hear not so long ago about dating schemes built into the Great Pyramid where the end was going to come in 2000? Now we have the Mayan Calendar influence for 2012 that is plaguing us and helping to spawn these new theories. I have news to a certain TV Bible prophecy teacher and everyone else, God has no reason to follow pagan calendars and theories. Why should any Christian believe they contain truth?
I get documents from people writing books who have the timing of the second coming or the start of the tribulation all mathematically figured out to an exact year and feast day. However, I notice when one starts with what one believes to be the prophetic date and then makes all their data conform to fit that date it will come out to the date they want it to come out.
We are getting close to the end. We can see that by world events but when you are tossing out your precise theory of when Jesus will return or reading someone else’s profound theories on that date, you might not sell the farm quite yet.
Is Temple Mount God’s time bomb?
Was the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem more than a place of worship?
Was it, indeed, a roadmap to future events – a kind of prophetic landmark whose significance is only now revealed through the development of satellite imagery?
That is the contention of an explosive new book, “Temple at the Center of Time: Newton’s Bible Codex Deciphered and the Year 2012,” by David Flynn.
The book asserts it has “deciphered Isaac Newton’s greatest paradox: None other than ‘the unified field theory’ of Bible prophecy.”
The Romans established Londinium in about A.D. 47. It was a civilian settlement built where the Thames became narrow enough for a bridge to be built across it but was still deep enough to admit large ocean vessels. In the 16th century, William Camden believed that the “London Stone” was a Roman milestone from which all distances were measured in the province. In the 17th century, Christopher Wren was able to observe the foundations of the London Stone underneath Cannon Street during the rebuilding of London after the Great Fire. With this information, it is possible to extend a measuring line from the Temple Mount in Jerusalem to the exact center of ancient London, and by fixing a point on the site of the temple mount, a measuring line extended over Jerusalem to the center of London produces 1,948.40 nautical miles.
Therefore, incredibly, recorded in the earth between the Temple Mount of Jerusalem and the historic center of London is what Flynn sees as the fulfillment of Newton’s own prediction: Israel became a nation again May 14th, 1948, corresponding perfectly to a distance between the temple and London of 1948 nautical miles.
As the reader moves through Temple at the Center of Time, these time-length correlations accumulate quickly, including numerous ancient dates such as 1441 B.C. when the Exodus from Egypt occurred. It turns out is 1,441,000 feet from the Jerusalem Temple to the Great Pyramid in Giza. Flynn finds dozens of other key dates in the past through similar satellite mapping measurements including some related to the United States, Russia and Rome.
Before it is even officially released, Flynn’s book is causing a sensation in some circles where it is being compared to “The Bible Code.”
Today Sept 17th I am adding the following information because some are saying that Flynn never implied a set date for the end of the world. Obviously WordNetDaily is hyping the 2012-2013 date in order to sell this book. The following quote was taken from the article posted on WND today. The belief that world will end in 2012-2013 is prophetically preposterous.
“But,” says Flynn, “there remains a valid aspect of Newton’s calculation. There is reason to believe he was correct in his assumption that there would be 1,260 years until the return of Christ at the rebirth of the Roman Empire, but that the year he chose was incorrect. There is actually a better date based on the founding of Rome and the methodology of Daniel’s prophecy.”
Flynn explains: “The Romans had fixed the birth of the city of Rome and the Empire in 753 B.C. It was believed that the patriarch of the city, Romulus, had marked out the boundaries for the wall of Rome in this year. Known as Ab Urbe Condita (literally, from the founding of the city) the Roman calendar began with 753 B.C. according to the dating of Marcus Terentius Varro (116–27 B.C.) who lived at the time of the Empire itself.
Because of how the prophet Daniel divided the prophetic week in half, Flynn believes the original founding date for the empire of the prophecy, Rome, would follow this pattern and be bisected. Therefore, correcting Newton’s date, the year 753 B.C. designates the founding of the physical Rome while A.D. 753 establishes the rebirth of spiritual Rome. Counting 1,260 years forward from A.D. 753, one arrives at the year 2013.
Additional significance can be attached to this finding when considering that 2013 follows the end of the great cycle of the Maya calendar and the planetary cycle of the Aztec calendar, which concludes Dec. 21, 2012. This date has raised apocalyptic fears in corners around the world. According to “The Bible Code,” the world will end on this date due to a collision with a meteor, asteroid, or comet. Another theory – the “Novelty Theory” – claims time itself is a “fractal wave,” which will end abruptly in 2012. Even the popular television program X-Files speculated that colonization of the earth by “aliens” would occur in December 2012.
The Maya themselves describe past visits of Quetzalcoatl, the Feathered Serpent, descending through a “hole in the sky” on a rope ladder. They believe at the end of 2012 the serpent rope will emerge again from the center of the Milky Way, and Quetzalcoatl will return, heralding a new era at the start of 2013. Another version of the story has Quetzalcoatl sailing down on a winged ship, causing some to speculate that a UFO armada or “mother ship” could descend and take up position over earth on that date.
Besides this type of speculation, an unusual number of important events will occur beginning in 2012. NASA is predicting the next Solar Maximum will arrive in 2012 and will be the strongest in 50 years. At the same time, the sun will align with the center of the Milky Way for the first time in 26,000 years, on the exact date of the end of the Mayan calendar, Dec. 21, 2012. This will also be the year when the United States and the United Nations elect a new president and a new secretary general, considered by some to be the two most powerful “thrones” on earth, and the seat from which prophecy experts say the Antichrist will rule or receive power.
On a YouTube video here, well-known preacher Jack Van Impe says that the year 2012 and the end of the Mayan Calendar could mark the return of Jesus Christ.
Based on his research into the Jewish Feasts, Pastor Mark Biltz of El Shaddai Ministries (as laid out in a series of two DVD teachings produced by WND Videos called “The Feasts of the Lord”) believes this time frame between 2012-2015 could be prophetic and may signal the return of Christ. He says for people who believe in a “pre-tribulation rapture,” this would make the year 2008 very important. For those who believe in a mid-tribulation rapture, 2012 may mark their departure. And on his website, he adds “if you’re prewrath, then 2014 might be interesting [and] if you’re a posttribber, 2015 is the date to watch for.”
Hi Don,
Great post again! I do have a question though. I understand what you’re saying about the year 2012, but my question is what do you think WILL happen in that year and 2013? Seems there is a lot of science out there that says something is going to happen- Polar reversal, sun storms, all kinds of things like that. I have only read a few articles, so I’m curious on your stance of if there is something that is likely to happen during that time frame, even if it’s not related to prophecy. Should we expect a bunch of earthquakes and such because of the pole shift- if that’s even going to happen?
If I knew what would happen in any year I would be very rich. The science out there about 2012-2013 is mostly junk science so I world not expect that year to have any more risk that any other year in the next decade. We still do not know what the next solar cycle will be like if it ever gets going. If it does not it is going to get cold.
Having said that, any year could be traumatic because I think the whole next decade is going to be a very traumatic time for the world but I do not believe we will be in the tribulation period in the next decade. The most traumatic thing that might occur in 2012 might be the U.S. elections, if we even have one after the EMP of 9/11/11. No, that is not a prediction.
I learned a lesson, when I was around 14 years old, about the return of the Master. We are to be found doing what Jesus instructed us to do, that is spreading the Gospel. Not trying to figure out when He will return. No if’s, and’s, or but’s.
When I saw this, I said to myself: “ho-hum, that’s marginally interesting, but why bother? I’ve got God’s Word! There’s nothing in this book that will “support” the Bible in my mind — it needs no more support.”
(Of course, I’m intensely watching for Jesus’ return, but this book strikes me as some cheap conspiracy theory.)
Oh, now I know what was bothering me about his book (I read the promotional writeup on Raiders News Network.): It “sizzles” with “secret/occultic” type “knowledge.” I believe I’m going to avoid this book.
I wonder if the writer is even a believer. The writer of the “Bible Code” was not. I would put this book more in the category of someone presenting a theory to those who are always looking for secret hidden knowledge in the Bible to figure out when the end date is. Of course they always do it just in time to make money selling their book before they are proven wrong.
I did not know that. Why is WND promoting that kind of a book?
Well, I said “sizzles” (from what I’ve read of it) of occultic things — I don’t know that for sure, but my spiritual “klaxons” are sounding in me loudly, so good or bad, I suspect that *I* need to avoid it.
WND sometimes promotes things that raise questions in my mind.
Hi Don – yes, David Flynn is a fellow Christian believer. Please hold further judgment until after you’ve read the book.
Thanks, and God bless you!
John
Thanks for the information. I think cynicism of speculative prophecy books plugged on the most popular Christian Internet website should be expected to go with the territory. Just as some criticized the Bible Code even before getting the expert opinions. How many dating books are we going to put on a bandwagon and have the world expose? I have nothing further to say on a book I have not read but I will stand by what I said in my post statement.
We will see what the Christian experts say after the book is released.
Blessings back to you,
Don
Thanks, Don – how do I change my picture?
Hi John,
I see why you would want to change your picture (-:
The program automatically assigns a picture at random to a email address so I am afraid that you can’t change your picture unless I use a completely different type of avatar program. I might do that because these pictures are pretty bad. So right not the only way the program would give you a different picture is if you changed your email address.
The program only assigns avatars if you do not have your own gravator (global avatar) you can get your own personal gravator at the following website http://en.gravatar.com/
(you can upload any picture you want)
I would be interested in reading a full critique when you have read the book, which I assume you have by now? I’ve always been bothered by people who critique movies and books before they read them. I am fearful of wasting my money on this book and also am skeptical of WND promotions, particularly because of their staff connections to Roy Masters.
The bible says we cannot know the day and the hour of Christ’s return, which I take literally, so predicting the year I do not find offensive or contrary to doctrine. Indeed we are told not a few times that we who live in this time will be able to discern the time. If Flynn predicts an exact day, I would be surprised.
As for “pagans” – people who were never exposed to the Word or the redemption of Jesus – they tried so hard to materialize instinctive believe in a greater power – we cannot fault them for that. Who is to say whether God might not have communicated with them to some extent and allowed some sort of divine knowledge before revealing the roadmap of his Son for them to folow? God existed when the Mayans were here, and when the American Indians were here and many thousands more. I do not write off every one of their beliefs for this reason. Christians like to think they were “evil.” Many were just “pre-Jesus”.
It would not surprise me at all that there are many mysteries still to be revealed to us, including mathematical calculations and more things surrounding the Temple Mount, which I believe Christians probably HAVE underestimated the significance of thus far.
However, I would like to hold off buying the book until I hear thoughts from you and others like you after reading the book. Thank you.
Actually, I have no intention of wasting my time reading another nonsensical dating book unless some credible biblical experts first tell me that there is actual validity in this ridiculous time/distance dating theory. The author has connections I do not like as well and that should raise red flags. I do not know why this book is even promoted on a Christian website before it is released other than to make money.
I see no reason for God to give revelation to pagans about a date of His Son’s return when they never believed in God’s son in the first place. It is not like these pagans or their children are actually still around looking for some fulfilled revelation.
What we have are neo-pagans who resurrected ancient pagan material and then spin them the way they want to try to support their view of the end of the world in 2012 or 2019. They find a gullible audience by using Christian terminology and feeding it to Christians through aberrant Bible prophecy TV preachers.
There is not going to be a end of the world there is just going to be and end of this age and 2012 will probably turn out to be no more significant than 2000, 1988, 1878, or 1000. A lot of “Christian” prophecy writers are just handing out 2012 Kool-Aid and all valid Christian prophecy teachers will take the heat when more “Christian” date setters comes and go.
Wow. I thought you were open minded but seems you are already rather belligerent about this book and now have stated that clearly. I am sad to see you won’t even read the book and call it a “nonsensical dating book” without any proof that it is that. I will read it . I will read anything to do with Bible Prophecy and will read anyone’s theories. If false, I will know the enemy, if it is real, it should make a good case and not be confusing. THEN I will judge it. It might have some valid ideas that can be gleaned from it, regardless of the author’s motive.
And I bet it’s not too long – so not too time consuming.
I will agree to disagree on your views on the pagans. I will only say that “Neo-pagans” are people who have obviously been made aware of the Lord’s Word and have rejected it, which is totally different from the early “pagans.” A difference most Christians don’t bother to acknowledge.
Hal Lindsey is the greatest prophecy teacher I know, and I thank God he is on TV. He is the only one on TV I really trust however.
Now WND is promoting a video that actually does – supposedly by their own promotion – predict the DAY of the end. Now that – is wacky. WND is one of those websites – like so many other Christian websites, where you have to pick the information (carefully) that you want and throw away the rest. It’s too bad.
I am pretty opened minded but over the decades I learned a few things about people who claim special Revelation or knowledge that everyone else has missed.
I can’t do everything myself you know. You would not believe the theories I get from people who what me to read their theories that have all the dates figured out. I have not read one that is convincing since Grant Jeffrey’s book but those dates have long come and gone.
So I am counting on you to tell me and everyone why the book is wacky right here on this post. I want to see if you can think critically and not just buy the line of the book. Now if you miss the reason why the theory does not hold water but others find the errors or I read it and find the errors in this dating scheme I am going to want to know why you missed it.
I do not know if it is all that wise to encourage these guys by buying their books, but hay, Its your money.
There is nothing new under the sun. What went on in Babylon is the same stuff that is going on in the New Age movement with a different book cover. Actually a lot of these people accept the Lords words, at least the parts they want to accept but they also accept anything else from “spirituality” that tickles their fancy. A prime example is Oprah and her millions of clones.
Hal Lindsey is very astute and he tells it like he sees it even if it is not politically or religiously correct. I have high regards for what Mr.Lindsey says.
That Video that WND is promoting might just be based on the same book that you are so eager to read. I have not seen anything else on their site that claims that kind of dating. I could be wrong. Yes, you have to be discerning on all websites. Even the good ones make some errors after all we are all human. That’s too bad but our nature will change one day.
Also be aware that on a news website like WND they do not censor everything they post on the website. They publish information that they think people will read and some of the sources they use just turn out to be bad. I do think they should be a little more discerning in the stuff they sell but that is easy for me to say I do not have to come up with the money to pay the whole staff and the lawsuit expenses.
One other thing he claims this theory came from Newton but Newton flat out said they the Lord is not coming before 2050AD. This book I believe is claiming a 2012 Rapture or Second coming based on Newton’s theories. I do not think Newton would approve but then again I do not think that Newton had a clue on any second coming date either.
Hi Don – when did you get your copy of Flynn’s book to substantiate this claim?
From what I read on page 291, paragraph 2 of the Epilogue it appears Flynn’s stating the third physical TEMPLE construction in Jerusalem is coming in 2012 “before the Second Coming of Christ” with no dates set at all on the actual coming of Christ. Do you have a different version of this book that states otherwise?
YBIC!
John
I said I never read the book many times now. I just remember what I read from WND site and assumed by the subtitle of the article “New book sees Jerusalem real estate as road map to future events” and the 2012 date on the WND site that they were talking about the second coming or the rapture. As you know many are now hyping this 2012 date because of a pagan calender. So you are saying he is predicting the date of the building of the third temple? Is that the start date, the foundation date or the completion date?
I also know from the article that I quoted in this post that the book claims past world events correlate with the distance in nautical miles from the temple mount in Jerusalem. That all seems very bazaar to me. Which world events fit the theory and were put in the book and which world events did not and were left out of the book?
If you actually read the book how about giving us your critique.
You know it was not so long ago that the Bible Code book came out and most of the Bible prophecy people jumped on that bandwagon and made a donkey out of themselves. Where is the hype now? There still are a few diehards but people with sound minds are not looking for future things to come by searching for hidden messages in equal distance Bible codes anymore because you can manipulate the data to make it say just about anything you are looking for, just as you can with world event dates and distances in miles from the temple. I say this will turn out much the same as the Bible Code even if you now think differently. In fact, I don’t even think this book will ever be in the same league as the Bible Code because I believe this is all nonsense. You can mark that down.
Thanks, Don – my apologies for the repitition. I just found it strange that you could give such specific criticism on a work which you’ve never personally read but rather based on some other site’s assessment. I thought that was considered gossip.
As you requested, please know I will provide you with a copy of my critique as several members of K-House’ Berean Online Fellowship http://www.khouse.org and the Koinonia Institute’s Research Director have asked for the same. Hopefully that’s something I can get done this weekend and will be sure to share with you when complete.
God bless you,
John
Great John, we will look forward to it.
God Bless
P.S. if anyone else has read this book and can give a critical analysis I would like your opinion as well.
Just finished the book. Though I don’t agree with all the peripheral historical details, it is a fascinating book and Flynn is definitely on to something. His referencing of Isaac Newton’s works and beliefs definitely lend greater credibility to his fundamental premise.
What is also fascinating to me is the fact that your website is one of the top results on a google search… while you yourself had not even read Flynn’s book before posting your blog. Thank you google for the quality indexing.
Thanks for your input. Don’t blame Google how would they know if I read the book? The book was not even released when this post was written and indexed in August. It takes time using SEO skills to make posts to rank in any search engine index. When more popular sites start talking about this book my rankings will fall sure enough.
It’s a great read – very fast and easy to absorb.
Please know, there is absolutely no date-setting in here. The WND write up asks a question, but you have to understand it’s marketing hype. Even the Feasts of the LORD DVDs they’re advertising (mentioned here in the comments) don’t make the claims that WND is alluding to in their marketing write-ups. They simply lay out interesting ‘signs in the Heavens’ that fall on Feast Days while teaching a lot about the Feasts that most laymen never get to hear about.
As for Flynn’s book – he simply lays out what he’s found and hardly even suggests the 2012 date other than to point to a distance anomaly and say ‘could it be that maybe the temple will be rebuilt on this date?’ while giving no firm answer – and it’s at the tail end of the book in a couple paragraphs.
Flynn also stays Biblically grounded, dismissing things right away when they don’t line up with Scripture. Sorry, he’s no pagan apologist. At the very least he outlines very well what others have already noted (ie. makes it very easy to understand for those who have a hard time getting some of this stuff) how the Biblical calendar works, the 70 years, the 360 days and the 2520 years/days, etc. which all comes straight out of Scripture. He also goes into detail about Newton’s prediction that Christ couldn’t come back until 2060, as mentioned earlier in these comments.
As far as the distance issues in the book, Flynn lays out major items in Israel’s history. I have no idea what data he may have thrown away, but they’re eye-openers nevertheless – ‘Cool, what are the odds?’
I found the book enjoyable and informative. No fringe cultish things here and no date setting of Christ’s return. I can’t remember what all the WND write-up said but it sounds like it was quite exaggerated.
That’s good to hear Chris.
WND’s marketing hype really made it sound like a spiritually dangerous book to me. So: “Never judge a book by its marketing hype?”
That said, it’s scary that WND obviously thinks that that hype will sell books. I guess they are targeting people who don’t take spiritual discernment very seriously.
(BTW, I’m not “patting myself on the back” as being spiritually descerning. Only that I try hard to be that way, in the strength that God has given me, and this vigilance has kept me out of certain spiritual difficulties.)
Brett, I completely agree, it’s extremely important to be discerning in all things. I have a great deal of respect for WND and Joseph Farah, at the same time we have to recognize they are a business as well and who knows what goes on behind the scenes of the marketing dept. 🙂
I’m anxious to see John Hoben’s write-up of the book when he gets time.
Thanks Chris for your review.
I think WND then did Flynn and everyone else a disservice by hyping his book the way they did. My concern is that I think we will now see books that will make future predictions based on this theory and that certain gullible Christians will be eating it up like they did with the Bible Code. I cannot blame Flynn for that if those suggestion were not made by him but WND has now set the tone for that to happen.
The theory of distances from the temple to dates of world events really stands or falls on the knowledge of statistics and the number of choices. Only expects in the field of statistics with other knowledge will be able to support or disprove the premise and that will not happen anytime soon. It took years for the critics to make a strong case against the Bible Code but by that time the harm had already been done.
It’s interesting that statistics has been related to Biblical prophesy. Such prophesy is guaranteed 100% correct; statistics, on the other hand, deal in probabilities and “confidence intervals.”
I’m very glad indeed that my salvation does not depend on my righteousness being two standard-deviations above the mean, and that the certainty of Christ’s return and His promise to redeem me is not subject to any “statistical margin of error!” 🙂
But can you prove you are saved by measuring the distance from the temple mount to the place and date of your birth? 😉
After the Bible Code came out i believe there were people looking for there own name hidden in the equal distance codes in the Bible to see if they were saved. 😛
Today i seen an article on WND that does say that Flynn did recalculate a 2013 date for the end of the world. You can read about this in the new quote I inserted in this post or you can go directly to
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=75434
In this article it also associates others that are setting the same time for the end of the world. It is all prophetically loony. I know Farrah does not really believe this. I guess it is all about hyping the book for the almighty…..dollar.
Hi Don – 2012 is the date going around, indeed. I think most people will say ‘yeah, somethings gonna happen’ but it’s all speculation as to what. Flynn sort of corrected Newton’s 2060 date (which he also noted Newton kind of threw together in a sort of spite) and shows that the correction would actually point to 2013. I don’t think that WND article blows what Flynn did out of proportion (though I only skimmed it quickly) and note they quote a lot from the book. But Flynn (in this book at least) does not state he thinks the world will end in 2013 – he does point to all the items that continually pop up regarding 2012 though. His only prediction, which was really more of a suggestion, was the building of the 3rd temple. I don’t think Flynn wants to completely state ‘I predict such and such will happen on this date’.
Hi Scott,
He obviously is giving the impression that the world will end in 2013 and when you start quoting pagan sources to validate what you are saying in your book you no longer are on biblical ground. Van Impe does the same thing and this article quotes what Van Impe said.on Youtube. I can not tell from the article if Flynn is quoting Van Impe or if it is WND but both should know better. Van Impe uses the same pagan sources as Flynn. It is circular reasoning and unreliable information.
Also the sun does not appear to be heading into a solar maximum. It is strangely non active for where it should be in this solar cycle but it is still a bit soon to be certain that the cycle will not still take place. What we can be certain of is if we do not see sun spots in the next year the next solar cycle will not take place as advertised and that might indicate that a long period of global cooling is on the way.
After some browsing I saw Mark Biltz post here about what people are saying regarding his Feasts of the Lord DVDs. http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/stipulation.html
That’s just not what’s in the book, Don. I don’t know how else to say it…
I agree, I wouldn’t be using Jack Van Impe as a source for much of anything… other than maybe what NOT to do 🙂
I then do not know why WND is posting lying articles?
I read your link. I do not think the eclipses are what the Lord and the prophets were talking about so I think the whole theory is misguided. What Jesus and the prophets were talking about were not something that occurs every few decades or even every few centuries over Israel. People forget that the Sun is also going to be turned to darkness and this blood moon event is probably in conjunction with all people seeking to find holes in the ground for protection.
This is probably talking about the effect of a comet or asteroid approaching the earth, or even the Holy City with the gravitational forces setting off volcanoes and throwing dust into the atmosphere. We might also be aware that the day of the Lord is for the whole world not just Israel and all on earth will see these things. That is not possible with eclipses.
Frankly, I think all this date speculation is counter productive even if I speculated a bit myself in my own projection table article. But at least I have a thirty year range for the second coming so people are not going to become moon bats. There is probably at least one author with a second coming or rapture theory for every year from now until 2033 and they all sound good to the authors who wrote them. However, I have not found one that I would buy into (I have been sent many). I also do not believe anyone will know the year before the end time events actually start to happen.
Thanks for your perspective, Don.
Have you gone through Chuck Missler’s “Mystery of Mars” study before?
Chuck points out the eliptical orbits of earth, mars and other planets in our solar system synch up every few thousand years to produce the strong gravitational forces that cause major earthquakes, increased meteor strikes and other geophysical tectonic plate shifting. Here’s an excerpt from Missler’s study:
==========================
The Long Day of Joshua
One-third of a million men met at Beth Horon. Mars on a fly-by at about 70,000
miles (very close), probably on a pass over the North Pole. Day lengthened 2-4 hours; precessional change. Polar shift; Latitude changed (5 degrees?) Bolides and Meteors 2-3 hours later, arriving at about 30,000 miles per hour. October 25, 1404 B.C.: Early morning,
Mars rises 50X size of the moon. Earthquakes, bolides, meteors: 2 – 3 hours.
(Source: K-House Ministries, “Mystery of Mars” Study Notes. PP. 29-30)
==========================
This event’s recurrence is predicted in the 2012 to 2020AD timeframe. Missler goes on to outline these occurences happen in October and March and lists the corresponding Biblical events that coincide with this calendar (two months before the pagan Mayan calendar predicts in December 2012). If anyone’s interested, please click on http://www.khouse.org and search for the “Mystery of Mars” study.
Bottom line: the man-made governments and other organizations of the earth’s nations will use this natural astronomical event to spin all kinds of stories to dig deeper into citizens’ wallets.
God bless you,
John
P.S. Work has been extremely busy so I’ve not completed my book review of Flynn’s work. As soon as it’s complete, I will post it, however.
P.P.S. Chuck Missler (nor anyone at K-House Ministries / Koinonia Institute) does NOT pick any dates for the rapture nor the next coming of Christ in this nor any of his studies.
Hi John
I have heard quite a bit of Chuck Missler’s material and like his teaching quite a bit. However he himself says that much of what he says is conjecture. I do not remember if I heard the Mystery of Mars study. I also do not know why he would say 70,000 miles from the earth could occur within a natural cycle of Earth Mars. That is quite impossible.
If I recall correctly I believe Missler teaches a version of the Planets in Collision theory and claims that Mars and Earth interacted in the past with each other in very close encounters. The theory in the book “Planets in Collision” made sense to me and I think they did occur to cause the biblical events. However, in the book Venus is ejected out of Jupiter causing the strange orbits of Mars that causes catastrophic events on the earth every fifty years when the orbits of Mars and Earth bring them close. But today the orbits are not like they might have been back then.
It makes no sense that these close encounters could happen in the orbits of Mars and Earth of today so that Mars could ever be 70,000 miles from the earth in 2012 to 2020 without another body from somewhere else changing the Mars or Earth orbit. Chuck Missler is not that stupid. My only explanation is that I think you may not have heard all of what he said correctly but I will try to listen to that series if I can find the time. My slow Internet connection makes that very difficult.
You’re right, Don – Chuck Missler did not say that about 2012. Chuck was talking only about the Long Day of Joshua from 3,000+ years ago. I was contrasting that with the planetary theory of precession happening again in the 2012 to 2020 timeframe.
My apologies for any mis-communication on what Chuck said and what I overlayed in extra-biblical conjecture. There’s enough mis-information from the heathen and pagan communities to cover the waters of the earth.
Shalom!
John
In regards to Flynn setting dates, he mentions on part of his website http://www.ahrimangate.com/flynn6.htm that “Christian eschatology can accommodate the existence of the Roswell message. It can accept its angelic origin for the message and even its symbolism. But so far there has been little room in eschatology for the setting of dates or years for prophecy fulfillment. There is only one true way of knowing the future, apart from trusting God’s words to mankind…
One has to wait.
According to the message at Roswell, we have only to wait a few years.”(end quote)
So he clearly acknowledges that 2012 he believes is a date of something significant, but is careful not to say its the year of the Lords return
Ryan
Thanks for your input Ryan
What message at Roswell? Does he claim to have hidden knowledge that few else know? I do not know what really happened at Roswell and I do not believe Flynn does either. So then he go from Roswell speculation to suggesting that he knows the Roswell message? That is shaky ground at best.
As promised, here’s my ‘official’ book review submitted to Amazon.com:
Flynn’s book is light on 2012, heavy on Biblical, secular history
As a sincere follower and believer in Jesus Christ, Flynn does a good job issuing a prophetic “watch” notice, blending Biblical and secular accounts of historical facts with ‘new’ data. Most of this “new” data is centered around linking distances from Jerusalem’s Temple Mount to key historical dates which seem to defy mere coincidence. (Of course, most Hebrew Rabbis will tell you coincidence is not a Kosher word!)
While some of the logic and calculations may seem contrived, Flynn does a good job using new technology (specifically NASA’s World Wind program) in calculating distances to key locations in London, Washington, Babylon, Mecca, Egypt and other nations who possess unique historical relationships with Jerusalem’s ancient Jewish Temples. Many of these “distances that match key dates and symbols” range from 1,948 nautical miles from the center of London to the corner stone of Solomon’s Temple. This matches up to 1948AD, when the British Empire established the Modern Nation of Israel. Flynn also shows there are 666 nautical miles between Mecca, Saudi Arabia and the Temple corner stone.
Flynn does a good job linking these calculations back to Biblical prophecies of Daniel, with some unique insights not published before. For example, Flynn calls out the unique properties of numbers such as 2,520 (equivalent to the number of days in Daniel’s “week of years” as well as the gematria of Babylon’s King Nebuchaadnezzar’s ‘writing on the wall’ interpreted by Daniel), 1,260 (half of 2,520) the constant pi and other numbers with their roots in the ancient Jewish Temples’ architecture. He also makes some other very unique, interesting observations between the geo-positioning of ancient sites and their relation to the Temple. Flynn does NOT put forth this type of distance / date observation as a new “bible code” but rather explores Isaac Newton’s Bible research as it relates to ancient prophecy and world events.
Other calculations are not as straight forward, such as the year 2012 calculated through a series of conversions between Lunar (Hebrew) and Solar (Gregorian) calendars, multiplication against Pi and offset by the dedication year of Solomon’s Temple. These calculations are all contained within less than 6 pages of the Epilogue out of 296 total pages which doesn’t warrant it as a sub-title for the entire book.
Beyond the time / distance parallel calculations, Flynn does an interesting job linking post-renaissance “illuminated” world leaders’ beliefs from the Jewish Temple’s vantage point. Facts are well cited in each respective chapter’s end notes, such as the origin of the word “church”, “ark” and “tau” in how they are inter-related to the “primal knowledge” or “priscia sapientia” avidly pursued by many renaissance scholars. Flynn makes subtle reference to the growing tension around 2012 as the end of the Mayan calendar and the potential for that time being a star gate through which the ‘watchers’ (implicit in Genesis 6, Matthew 24 and Jude) return to earth. Under no circumstances does Flynn pick any second advent, rapture or other prophetic dates but merely puts the reader on ‘watch notice’ similar to a meteorological tornado watch.
Bottom line: read the book. Flynn’s ambassadorship for the King of kings is well reflected in this thoughtful piece of work.
John Hoben, Soldiersbibleministry.org
Thanks John for taking the time to submit your book review here.
Nothing you said really changes what I said on this post.
I had to laugh at some statements in your report.
“Flynn calls out the unique properties of numbers such as 2,520 (equivalent to the number of days in Daniel’s “week of years” as well as the gematria of Babylon’s King Nebuchaadnezzar’s ‘writing on the wall’ interpreted by Daniel), 1,260 (half of 2,520) the constant pi and other numbers with their roots in the ancient Jewish Temples’ architecture.”
“Other calculations are not as straight forward, such as the year 2012 calculated through a series of conversions between Lunar (Hebrew) and Solar (Gregorian) calendars, multiplication against Pi and offset by the dedication year of Solomon’s Temple.”
I think the distance to the moon in NASA World Wind Miles divided by Pi and the year of the first temple will actually give you the date of the watchers first moonwalk. Someone prove me wrong
“Flynn does NOT put forth this type of distance / date observation as a new “bible code” but rather explores Isaac Newton’s Bible research as it relates to ancient prophecy and world events.”
But others will you can bet on it. 😥
“Flynn makes subtle reference to the growing tension around 2012 as the end of the Mayan calendar and the potential for that time being a star gate through which the ‘watchers’ (implicit in Genesis 6, Matthew 24 and Jude) return to earth.”
Star gate? Mayan calendars- 2012?
Well you all can can read what you want. As for me, I have better things to do than read contrived Christian science fiction books. 🙄
Something interesting!!! I have been studying Bible Prophecy for many years now. I have come to the conclusion that so called Bible Scholars professors or what have you are cooks. I have found all the answers right in the Scriptures concerning the Second Coming. I would not assert a date for I am not that smart. But I will tell you this. Ezekiel 37 is the Prophecy everyone ascribes to all Israel coming back together in their homeland. Read it close and you will find “Bone of my bone…” In Matthew 27 you will find a bodily resurrection took place and many were to be seen in Jerusalem. Well if you read Revelation 14 you will find that the Scripture is speaking of a past event. You will find if you study that the 144,000 Jews whether that is symbolic number or not I know not. But they resurrected at Christs resurrection. You will find this is the same crowd in Hebrews 12:23 You will find in 1 Cor 15 that their is but two comings. Which ties all that I am saying together about Christ being the firstfruits. It speaks of that coming and then one more and then the end. No secret rapture. You will find that Paul got his Revelation of the rapture from Isaiah 25:27 from the words …Death is swallowed up in victory. So you will find that at his first coming their was a veil rent in the Temple. You will find at his second coming another veil rent in Isaiah which covers the whole world in darkness. You will find that the Dragon is actually bound which is written in Revelation 20.. I didnt belive any of this a few years back because I listened to what all the prophecy folk and my Pastor preached. But I was blown up in 6 bomb blasts in Iraq that erased my memory. When I finally got the capacity of mind back to read the Scriptures read diffrent and I had forgotten what I had believed so I was relived of the burden of having to forget wrong prophecy and relearn. I was a satanist and I stole a KJV and when I opened it and began to read the Holy Word came alive and convicted me of being a lost sinner. I got saved. Anyway if anyones interested the Lord has opened my understanding of the Second Coming. If your interested email me. The Lord has put the prophetic together for me. I an interested in getting the truth out. I am a nobody and need your prayers. God bless you by the way Isaiah 15 quoted by Paul in 1 Cor 15 gives the timeing of rapture. It can be put together. Tears are wiped away at that time. Paul said behold I show you a mystery, at the last trump. Go to the last trumpet in Revelation 10:7 and you will find the Mystery of God is finished at the blowing of the last trump. Paul said the last trump. Jesus said at the last day in John 6 several times alluding to his second coming. “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me…and I will raise him up at the last day.” In Joshuah 6 At the Last Dye at the blowing of teh Last Trump they “Ascend up” God bless that is all I will say. Maybe I can help just one. The religous crowd stays mad as hell at me because I have proved all the theories wrong. For instance the Thousand years in Revelation 20 has a 2000 year sequence to it as well. When you see the rainbow on earth you dont see a circle you only see half. But in Revelation we learn it is a circle. Everything in Revelation for the most part is given in halves. Their is one 1260 day period in Revelation. But it ends up 2 three and a half year periods. So the reason that the Great Red Dragon is bound is because Christ has elect upon the earth and antichrist would have destroyed the world already at his first coming after he was cast out of heaven that Christ speaks of in John 12 also John in Revelation 12. This part of the war in heaven took place when Christ and his firstfruits resurrected and Satan was cast out which caused the first persecution of Christians. I know most will not understand or accept because they are eaten up with theories. But the most of Christs Second Coming has been revealed to me through the Word of God. God bless Love Forrest
“But I was blown up in 6 bomb blasts in Iraq that erased my memory”
Just six? That explains everything you said. 🙄
I think the distance to the moon in NASA World Wind Miles divided by Pi and the year of the first temple will actually give you the date of the watchers first moonwalk. Someone prove me wrong
Hmmm, I’d say that’s an irrational statement. Why? Well because Pi is an irrational number of course! 🙂
Donn, No, not just 6 direct hits on the humvees I was a gunner on actually was in many more explosions than that!!! Just not 6 or 7 feet away I do appreciate the sarcasm though thanks. Forrest
Thanks, Forrest – I can’t find your email so would you please send me a note at john.hoben@soldiersbibleministry.org so I can take this discussion off this forum?
God bless you!
John
Wow!
I hear your heart and it sounds like a defensive one to me! I pay attention when God speaks and I can tell you He is speaking and He is moving in ways that will bewilder and amaze all of us. I pray and hope your spirit and heart open soon. Nothing wrong with a bit of humbling.:) Don’t know you but hope and pray your ice melts. God bless David Flynn. God bless us all because even if there are mistakes made here and there in figuring numbers He is sovereign. And I thank Him He cares enough to let us know what is unfolding. I praise Him for David Flynn’s work and research. And Joy Pugh. And Lynn Marzulli. These are hearts after God. It’s not about “rational” and “cognitive”. It’s about our hearts.
Kelly
Believe it or not God knows we have a brain and He is always working and always sovereign. I do not question that at all. I am not saying David Flynn has wrong motives either. I am saying his theory is a stretch too great to comprehend with the human mind that God gave us. If your heart can grasp such a theory it is probably because you never have really thought it through
Don, it would be a good idea to look into things more before you “debunk” them. I, too, wondered about the Bible Code, and when I looked, I found it to be true. Please ask a friend to check out my personal finding (which I have never seen published anywhere).
I found HOLY (Kadosh in Hebrew) in Numbers 7. In that chapter, each of the 12 tribes give 12 identical gifts when the tabernacle was set up for the first time.
What I found was the word HOLY:
12 times at an Equaldistant Letter Skip of 9,
12 x at ELS of 10,
12 x at ELS of 18,
12 x at ELS of 21,
and others at 1 or 2.
This was no accident or coincidence. The Code is there. You (and I) just don’t know what purpose it might serve except to verify that it is statistically impossible for any human or computer to have written the Bible. Please don’t throw out the baby with the bath water. Our God is a lot bigger than we can imagine.
Shalom,
Sheila
Why do you even make the assumption that I did not look into these things? This Bible Code bull has been around for a decade and it has been thoroughly debunked by Hebrew language experts and statisticians.
Anyone can take an infinite number of words and find one that fits a pattern. One can also take an infinite number of words and find something like “Jesus is accused” using the Bible code. Yeah these things were done.
You probably really do not understand how the Bible Code is manipulated to make it become a self fulfilling prophecy. How many actual letters are there in the word “Holy” in Hebrew. Maybe all of three or four? Do you really know how the code works?
Don’t you also realize that if one letter in the whole Hebrew text was added or subtracted from the original autographs the whole Bible code would fail since it is based on a sequence. Guess what? There are hundreds of letter differences that have been identified between the masoretic text and earlier Hebrew texts found in the dead sea scrolls and other ancient manuscripts. They are minor difference such as plurals left out and things of that sort but it would still throw the whole sequence of the code off.
We simply do not have a perfect original autograph spoken from God. So God would have had to re-inspire people to put together a perfect manuscript over a thousand years after the earliest Hebrew texts that we have since found. It is is all nonsense.
I suggest you do a little research yourself and get a book from Hebrew language experts and statisticians that debunk the Bible Code before you tell me to research what I have long ago researched.
You might look into Dr. Michael S. Heiser’s website ( just google the name)
Hi Sheila!
As Don suggests, you can (and should) review Mike’s work in this subject at:
http://www.michaelsheiser.com/nonfictionbookpageBCM1.htm
Mike is probably one of the most well-studied Biblical scholars alive today. His day job is as Hebrew and Ancient Linguistics scholar at Logos Bible Study Software. See http://www.logos.com/about/mission this site for details. Do you use Logos for study?
That all said, David Flynn’s book has little (or nothing) to do with ELS and bible codes. It’s more about exposing history’s misguided world leaders trying to conjure up information well beyond what Christ Jesus summed up in Matthew 22 in His Great Commandment.
God bless you,
John
Hi Sheila – Mike Heiser also maintains three blogs with a large amount of links and archived research material at:
http://michaelsheiser.com/TheNakedBible/
http://michaelsheiser.com/PaleoBabble/about/
http://michaelsheiser.com/ScribalPractices/
Very thoughtful research.
Great Links John,
On that one Blog I actually see Michael agrees with what I have been saying all along about the Lord’s supper passages. What I hear in almost all Evangelical communion services just does not fit the full context of the instruction. Many today are forming conclusions on communion that misses the whole point of the instruction.
No guys and gals, I am not trying to start a discussion on communion here although I may post an article on that topic someday. I just want to say that I like what Heiser has to say because he actually analyzes what the text says in total context rather than just pulling out a passage and building the theology you want to believe around it.
By the way, his novel “The Facade” is fascinating and thought provoking and it is just as thrilling and on the edge as a Stephen King novel but it is still totally Christian. It should have become a major paper back best seller but how do you get national publishers to even read the manuscripts of first time unknown novelists? By the books they have out there on the shelves it is obvious that most publishers pass over books that make anyone think outside the box. Thinking is too difficult for people these days so the publishers just like to give them the same simple-minded garbage that they like to read.
Always been suspicious of the Bible Code. It always seemed to me something like Nostradamus. People shoehorning their own views into it to make it fit some agenda.
God’s word is clear and straight-forward. When one speaks of certain secret-knowledge found within, the hairs on the back of my neck bristle.
I think I’ll pick up “the Facade” for reading on my next camping trip. When the snows here in the Sierra’s disapper. 🙂
Kev
“I think I’ll pick up “the Facade” for reading on my next camping trip. When the snows here in the Sierra’s disapper”
That might be when hell freezes over 😉
Happy to see the scholarly debate here. Thought I would add a few points. The “Roswell code” is “PI x the crash site latitude = the crash site longitude”. The “Time = distance” phenomena from my latest book is an extension of Newton’s work on the microcosm geometry of the temple of Jerusalem as macrocosm of prophecy. Dr. Heiser actually provided a hard to find publication on measurement from the temple to London England by Samuel Lee during my research of the book. I visited his home to share my findings with him and though we differ on belief in the bible code, he was in agreement with the the time=distance data I had uncovered. This could more accurately be coined, “the temple code”.
Concerning another aspect of 2012 and prophecy see my video trifle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXUY4hJAxpY&feature=channel_page
Take it for what you will…
I have no way of knowing if this is really the author David Flynn and if this meeting with Dr. Heiser actually took place. I also cannot tell from the email website address used. http://www.watcherwebsite.com. Because that website has no content. The only thing I can find of significance related to the email name “watcherwebsite” used in his email address is the following interview.
” This week, Derek and Sharon Gilbert analyze the most famous UFO incident in history, the 1947 crash of something near Roswell, New Mexico.
Our guest was David Flynn, a cryptoarchaeologist–someone who teases out the deeper meanings of anomalies that scientists can’t explain.ÂÂ* What to make of the location of the crash on the 33rd parallel (33 degrees North), considering that “33” is a very important number to occultists?ÂÂ* Is it a coincidence?
http://peeringintodarkness.com/radio/images/aoddave5-01.jpg
David Flynn
How about this:ÂÂ* Multiplying 33 times pi (3.141592…) equals 104–the longitude of the crash site?
There’s a whole lot more.ÂÂ* And all the numbers seem to point to 2012, which is the year that ends the age according to the incredibly precise calendar developed by the ancient Mayans.
It was such a fascinating discussion that we didn’t even get to mention his book, Cydonia: The Secret Chronicles of Mars (http://www.watcherwebsite.com/Page.html).
Note to iTunes users:ÂÂ* We’ll have the Enhanced podcast file posted as soon as we update the audio file with the graphics needed to illustrate David’s talk.ÂÂ* When it’s ready, you’ll find it by clicking here. (http://peeringintodarkness.com/radio/pidradio020.m4a)”
David Flynn’s article: An Occult Translation of the Roswell Event: Count down to 2012 (http://www.raidersnewsupdate.com/flynn.htm)
David’s website covers ancient mysteries, “illuminated” fraternities, gnosticism, crop circles, UFOs, and Bible prophecy (it’s a resource we’ve been using for years here in the Bunker): The Watcher Website (http://www.watcherwebsite.com/)
David’s book on the ancient Martian civilization:ÂÂ* Cydonia – The Secret Chronicles of Mars (http://www.watcherwebsite.com/Page.html)
The Mars/Earth Connection (http://www.alienresistance.org/aod03videodave.htm) – DVD of David’s presentation at the 2003 Ancient of Days conference connecting the sacred geometry and monuments of a seemingly destroyed culture on Mars to Earth’s most ancient structures, mythological deities, and mystery religions.
Listen now to P.I.D. Radio #20! (http://peeringintodarkness.com/) seems to be all about UFO’s”
I went to http://peeringintodarkness.com website and that just makes me more suspicious of David Flynn’s work since it is all about the occult and UFO’s,
Help me out here John Hoben, since your name appears on that website?
Unfortunately with my download speed being of < 28K at my present location I cannot download videos. So if someone would like to check it out and do a short report on this it would be much appreciated.
John,
Thanks for responding on this and thanks for contacting Mike Heiser.
I fixed that bad link above
I have had a link up to one of Guy Malone’s other websites on my website link directory for years http://www.alienresistance.org/ and guy also has a link to my website.
Obviously I think Guy Malone has some good information to offer those with a open mind in Christianity about the satanic deception that is being paraded as aliens
Of course all this is on the edge and not known or not accepted by most of Christianity.
I really did not take the time to read any articles on the peeringintodarkness website so I do not know about Christian content. I just noticed that all the links were about the occult and ufology. I will take your word about what you said about the authors on that site.
Let me ask you a question John?
You are affiliated with Chuck Missler’s website http://www.khouse.org – does Chuck Missler buy into David Flynn’s book and theories?
By the way, I link to khouse website from my link directory because I think Chuck Missler is one of the most thought provoking teachers in Christianity but I never could get Khouse to link back to mine http://www.thepropheticyears.com.
Hi Don!
Please know I’ve left a message for Mike Heiser asking him to join this discussion for confirmation and collaboration. Mike and Dave have presented together in the past. See Guy Malone’s site at http://www.ancientofdays.net/ for details. While I’ve not met Guy personally, I sincerely believe he has a heart to help and heal the lost souls afflicted by the whole evil alien abduction phenomenon. See his work through the Alien Abduction Crisis Centers of America at http://www.aaccoa.org/ for example.
Sue Bradley is the lead author from the November 24th 2008 article at the Gilbert’s http://peeringintodarkness.com/ website (please note the k you’re missing in the link provided above). While I don’t fully agree with some of these methods at Sharon and Derek Gilbert’s site, knowing Sue and her husband personally, her main desire is to glorify the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob by exposing such darkness through her research and authoring.
God bless us all,
John
Hi Don!
Please know I’m only a volunteer moderator for K-House’ Berean Online Fellowship (BOF) online Bible study discussion group and volunteer Area Representative for the Koinonia Institute’s http://www.studycenter.com as well. Since I’ve not spoken with Chuck about David Flynn, I have no idea what his position might be. When ever I do get the opportunity to speak with Chuck, its generally about the Soldiers Bible Ministry and other active missions given his limited time availability.
God bless you,
John
“But any latitude/longitude system (and, more importantly, any *meaning” attached to that) would be
a LATER development – later than the original biblical period”
That is a very good point that no one has brought up. Maybe the ancients writers and Newton walked into the same time portal and had a mind meld. Hay, that explanation might not be as far out as buying the distance theory.
Hi Don – Mike Heiser just emailed me the following and said it was ok to post:
>>>I don’t believe in a “temple code.” The data David refers to that he
showed me were measurements (I am not sure what David means by
“time=distance” – maybe the measurements of distance in degrees – ?).
Dave was at my house at least three years ago, so it’s hard to remember.
At any rate, I doubt there is anything wrong with David’s measurements,
given his assumption about where the “0” median should be. His notion
of where that originally was seems coherent to me, but I’m no expert
here. I have a fundamental question, though, about this basis for what
David does: Did pre-antiquity, non-European people think this way (the
“0” median placement and everything that extends from it)? That’s
important if we’re talking about “temple reality” (the temple in its
original context – regardless of what Newton thought). I can see
(again, seems coherent) that the ancients (including the Israelites – at
least from the exile onward, which would exclude the first temple) would
have “mapped” the path of the constellations “onto” the geographic
locations of nations/cities on the earth. But any latitude/longitude
system (and, more importantly, any *meaning” attached to that) would be
a LATER development – later than the original biblical period.
To be concise: I am a “believer” in the “as in heaven, so on earth”
notion, and it is very ancient, well back into the biblical period. But
was what the biblical people thinking the same as Newton or any other
modern European? THAT is a fundamental issue I need resolved. Yes,
Newton can come up with a hermeneutical system that ties in with
astronomy, latitude, and longitude, but the fact that he did doesn’t
mean at all that the biblical writers were thinking anything like that.
Maybe. Maybe not.<<<
Non sequitur. Dr Heiser should read my book … I guess he is mixing up the Roswell info with the Temple info. The difference is:
The temple is the fixed point on earth in which all measurements outward to cities of historical note are found to equal their distance in “years”, i.e., fall of Babylon 539 BC, distance to temple 539 nm. Israel reborn as a nation 1948, Center of London 1,948 nm, from temple etc. This has nothing to do with latitude or longitude.
The Roswell theory does, i.e., 33 x PI = 104 or latitude time pi = longitude of the crash site.
Two different theories, similar constructs, obvious confusion… has been 3 years since I was at his house?
Tempus fugit.
It looks like we do have the authentic Dr. David Flynn posting. So if you have a question now is the time to bring it up.
I have a question of my own for Dr. Flynn. There seems to be some controversy here if you are actually predicting something prophetic to occur in the 2012-2013 era. Are you claiming any future dated fulfillment of prophecy based on your own discoveries?
Mike Heiser wrote:
:>>
I didn’t see an answer to my questions about presuppositions in here.
That’s okay – if one can prove that the biblical writers/builders did
something like build the temple at X spot for “esoteric” reasons, that
would be both valuable and cool!
One note: the temple did not fall in 539 BC as David has in his
response. It fell in 586 BC (by both biblical and Babylonian
chronology). 539 BC is the date of the Cyrus decree, when the Jews
exiled in Babylon were allowed to return with permission to REBUILD the
temple (according to both Ezra and the Cyrus cylinder). I hope David
isn’t using 539 BC as the destruction date in his book, since that would
be a HUGE error. My guess is that it’s a typo in his response to me.
Mike
>>
Mike sent me this longer note after the previous one to post:
>>
I think I owe it to K-House readers and to Dave Flynn, whom I consider a friend and stimulating thinker, to put forth a longer response to Dave’s work. I hope you all can tolerate a little glimpse of a biblical scholar’s (read: biblical theology geek’s) thought processes. If it doesn’t bore you, it may give you some insight as to my attitude toward Dave’s work, which I have been asked several times to evaluate (but I won’t). It may also prompt you to pray that I get therapy.
For starters, I am open to the kind of esoteric analysis Dave does, but I don’t think I can evaluate it. That’s why I don’t make any attempt to comment directly on it as though I can evaluate it with any authority. Let’s say I read his book and then approach it from a scholar’s perspective – wanting evidence for the validity of the methods he uses and how he sifts the data (there are real reasons, beyond just the obtuse nature of it, why biblical scholars don’t accept Newton’s ideas and hermeneutic). What have I gained? What have I provided people? Basically, an apples and oranges analysis. I’ve applied a grid to Dave’s work that it doesn’t fit. I believe Scripture should be interpreted and understood from its ORIGINAL context – the ancient world from which it came. The divine council is a big part of that, which is why I camp there, and also why it freaks people out. Most Bible-study amateurs (lay people whom God didn’t lead to spend 20 years in grad school studying the original languages and a panoply of other things) have no idea what “the ancient context” of the Bible really was or means. It’s not comparing pottery, but that’s how lay-level tools present the biblical world – only in terms of material culture, not religious ideas and frameworks. Evangelicals are typically silent on that. Dave is coming alongside the original context of Scripture. If I used that framework to evaluate Dave’s work, and it has little obvious comparison, I would have to reject Dave’s work. But I could be completely wrong in doing so, and therefore render a grave disservice to Dave and a lot of other people. I’m not going to pontificate like that (something I detest in scholars). Why would I be wrong? Because Dave’s work presupposes something that nuts and bolts ancient contextualization doesn’t: a belief in a divine mind behind Scripture, and an unseen war behind all this stuff. He is, though, assuming that Newton had some insight into the “supernatural intent” – which may or may not be the case.
Now, since I accept the divine mind behind Scripture and the unseen world, one might ask, “Then why not endorse what Dave is saying?” The answer is simple: I don’t know if he’s right about his conclusions because of three things: (1) the gap in my own knowledge base to understand what he’s doing and saying (I can’t endorse what I don’t understand), and (2) my inability to know for sure if the connections he makes (assuming they are legitimate – and see below on this point) are being correctly UNDERSTOOD (yes, there are X miles between A and B – what does that MEAN? Why should it MEAN anything? If it MEANS something to God, how would we know – where’s the handbook on how to interpret it?); and (3) his own inability to really KNOW he himself is drawing the right conclusion from any given data points (he’d have to be omniscient) and thus to show me how NO OTHER conclusions could be right or as coherent. I’m willing to list “Flynn is right about this” alongside the other possible conclusions I could draw, but that’s as far as I am able to take it. My gut tells me there is SOMETHING going on with these correlations he finds and produces. But then my brain asks, “What do you suppose is the meaning behind them?” “How do you know Flynn is drawing the right conclusions and attributing the correct meanings?” My brain then answers, “you don’t know, and probably can’t know.” I just don’t know how to evaluate the material. I’m not going to say he’s wrong or he’s right since I can’t make that determination with any confidence. [In case you’re wondering, “Why isn’t he as cautious with Sitchin?”, it’s because I DO understand grammar, ancient languages, what Sumerian-Akkadian lexical lists are, etc. that tell me what the text can sustain and what it can’t. I KNOW he’s misguided because I have the knowledge base for that and can handle the data. The same goes for the claims of ELS Bible coders. I wouldn’t say it if I couldn’t demonstrate it.]
Let’s go a little deeper. I have presupposition-level questions about Dave’s work, and I don’t even know if there are answers to those questions. For example, the mileage plotting I see is arbitrary. Why measure London to Israel? Why not Israel to Liverpool? To Glasgow? To Rennes? Or, perish the thought, to Rosslyn Chapel? If God had some divine intent to where the temple would be located, why is it that in the New Testament, the Church (“universal”) is referred to as the temple (cf. 1 Cor 3:16 – the “you” pronouns are plural)? It’s evident that the church CLEARLY fulfills CERTAIN aspects of the OT covenant promises (read the end of Galatians 3 – Gentiles [anyone] who are in Christ are called “Abraham’s seed” and are “heirs of the promise” – it can’t get any clearer than that). But does the church entirely DISPLACE Israel in the covenants? Why is any of this important or relevant to Dave’s ideas? It goes to presuppositions about eschatology. Now, while the church corporately = the temple of God for a “temple-less” time, I’m not convinced there is absolutely no eschatological role for a rebuilt temple — but honesty with Scripture dictates the admission that the possibility of there being no future temple is as real as the alternative. That question would undermine the whole premise Dave is arguing for and from (but I also can imagine ways where Dave’s premise is still operable, even without a temple). There is also a reasonable chance that the temple mount location currently accepted by most people today is not accurate (the difference isn’t in terms of miles, though, so this may not be enough to matter to Dave’s ideas, though). More broadly, Dave’s scheme presupposes certain things about eschatology that are common, but they are only presuppositions that need to be proven or disproven. For what I mean by that, I’d direct readers to my blog post about how everyone cheats at eschatology. That will give readers a “top ten” list of presuppositions brought TO the text (i.e., they do not derive FROM the text and are therefore NOT self-evident from the Bible). My point there and here is not that we must not have presuppositions – we can’t avoid them. The point is twofold: (1) we’d have to be omniscient to know if our decisions about the presuppositions we hold are right; and (2) in view of #1, we ought to be humble about eschatology – being honest that we could be completely wrong no matter what view we take – and so we ought not build too much of our theology around what we think about end times.
One last excursus. The above issue, and even the top ten list, represent a small sampling of the tough issues that swirl about in the biblical text that relate to “how should we interpret the Bible” or “interpret X passage.” I can say that because I’ve put so much time into it. I’m simply aware of the mountains that have to be climbed in terms of exegesis whereas many people are not (it’s one of the reasons I tell people I never get bored in church even if the pastor is clueless – I have lots to think about). All that said, I don’t want anyone reading this to despair and ask, “Well if it’s so tough to know if you’re right, why bother?” The answer is twofold: (1) The basic, core doctrines of the faith are not obtuse – they are definitely deep and nuanced when you start to un-layer the onion, but at the core, you can get them. But not all doctrines are presented with equal clarity, and God didn’t give us a handbook about an interpretive procedure (“just take it literally” is not a solution, since, among other problems for ‘literalism’, the NT authors don’t always take the OT literally). Frankly, I think you should enjoy the un-layering process. It’s what makes theology interesting and, dare I say it, FUN. Second, God doesn’t expect us to get everything right. If he did, he would have revealed things with equal clarity and given us a Bible: Volume 2: Commentary and Instruction Manual. He knows we are dust, but he enjoys when we try to think his thoughts after him. I (and, I believe, God) would rather have someone devote themselves to Bible study and fail from time to time (or even a lot) than have his children be more interested in who wins Survivor or their plunging stock portfolio.
Mike
Michael S. Heiser, Ph.D., Hebrew and Semitic Studies
Academic Editor, Logos Bible Software
<<
HI John,
Thanks for posting that position from Dr. Heiser it was very insightful.
I wish to reply to what Dr. Heiser said here and on his Blog about eschatology.
Although what Dr. Heiser said may be generally true it is overly analytical in my opinion and almost denies that any real truth can be known about anything in the Bible without having a PhD on the topic.
I think one should do an analysis of the data in the Bible and make the logical choice by the preponderance of the evidence and understanding given to you by God. We do that with everything else in life so I do not know why the Bible or eschatology should be the exception. All knowledge can be questioned by someone but the truth we know should not be discarded just become someone else cannot understand the truth that we see.
You can take the whole Bible (not just eschatology) and look for alternate meanings and explanations and make yourself quite confused (many do). But, those who study the Bible do make conclusions based on what is written and their understanding of it.
For example, is man saved by faith plus your own good works and obedience to the doctrines of the Church. Or is one saved by just believing in God’s righteousness to save us by His blood sacrifice at the cross? I know the truth but Catholics see their own truth from the same scriptures. That is not going to change what I know is the truth. So how did I get the truth and they missed it? Because by God’s grace I understand the gospel of salvation and I know I am saved. But they try to define salvation in the Bible through their church doctrine and end up only hoping they will be saved if they are obedient to the given salvation requirements (not God’s). Is that the gospel of salvation? NO. So, obviously we can know the truth about many things and that including major points of eschatology even though others may miss it because of some theology that blinds them.
If one takes no position on anything in the Bible. What applications then do you apply from the Bible to your life? What is the point of having all the books of instruction in the Canon? Why not just stop with the safe essentials given in the creeds since so much of the scripture is taken differently by different factions? No. The truth can be known.The scripture says to study to show yourself approved. The word of the LORD “was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little there a little”.
If all we can know from God is what we have a PhD in then the Catholics are correct only the highly educated priests define truth for the rest of us.
I think Dr. Heiser is not considering the preponderance of the evidence. He seems to take no position on eschatology because someone else can make an opposing argument. Someone almost always can, but that does not mean their argument has equal weight. All arguments on Covenant Theology versus Dispensational Theology have been answered by those with PhD’s. One theology answers all the questions by a plain reading of the Bible and the other through the lens of amillennial theologians who often loved Replacement Theology because when they wrote their theology they saw no place for a literal Israel on earth. Therefore, they had to take scores of passages that obviously from the detail and content are to be taken as a literal event on earth and spiritualize them. They did this because they lacked understanding but they did rob the prophets of the meaning of their prophecy and replaced specific detail with spiritual fluff.
Well God’s words will come to pass anyway. Israel is in position to fulfill prophecy as written yet they still deny it. Many will be denying it and siding against Israel until they find themselves fighting against God.
Just because James or Paul saw fulfillment of a certain passage in a spiritual sense does not make all literal sense nonsense. We Gentiles who believe are grafted into the commonwealth of Israel we are not Israel. We entered the New Covenant before them because of their unbelief but the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah was certainly unconditional and it was given to natural Israel.
We must look at the weight of the arguments. I just posted an article from Dr. Norman Geisler on this Blog on Preterism. How can one look at all his arguments and discard the weight of them? How can one still believe in Preterism that fails on so many points, and how can one believe a theology that totally fails the test of common sense logic? To me it has to be that they love their theology more than learning the facts. Very much the same can be said about other issues of eschatology. People just do not want to see the facts. They do not even want to see the state of the world today. So they make things up as they go along and play out Dominion Theology. That theology also fails on scriptural grounds and on the logical conclusions we should form from what we see taking place on earth. The church is not Christianizing the world we are even losing ground in what is known as Christianity.
I say all that to say. Sometimes we have to use God given judgment wisdom and understanding to understand what is the truth. God’s truth does not come by being overly analytical. It is fine for Dr. Heiser not to take a position on Dr. Flynn’s Book because he does not feel qualified but I hope someone who understands the theory and the math will take a position. Because I fear a lot of people will be using his theory to try to predict things and all the nonsense that brings. Just as the wishful thinkers are still doing with the Bible Code almost a decade after Dr. Heiser and others debunked it.
Dr. Heiser wrote:
“if one can prove that the biblical writers/builders did
something like build the temple at X spot for “esoteric” reasons, that
would be both valuable and cool! ”
David F writes: YES!. It is in the book.
Dr. Heiser also wrote:
“One note: the temple did not fall in 539 BC as David has in his
response. It fell in 586 BC (by both biblical and Babylonian
chronology). 539 BC is the date of the Cyrus decree, when the Jews
exiled in Babylon were allowed to return with permission to REBUILD the
temple (according to both Ezra and the Cyrus cylinder). I hope David
isn’t using 539 BC as the destruction date in his book, since that would
be a HUGE error. My guess is that it’s a typo in his response to me.”
David F writes: This is right, I meant BABYLON fell in 539 BC, not Jerusalem. It is a typo of course.
Evidence:
BABYLON FELL539 B.C… October 12, the arm of Cyrus entered Babylon. – Light from the Ancient Past – Jack Finegan pp.227 – 229 Cyrus entered Babylon in 539 B.C. -Encyclopedia Britannica Vol. 2 p.. 852In 539 B.C. Babylon fell. – The Ency-clopedia Americana Vol. 3 p. 9Babylon was captured by Cyrus in 539B.C. – Yale oriental series researchesVol. XV, ‘Nabonidus & Belshazzar’p.46 In 539 B.C. Babylon, too, was cap-tured by Cyrus. – The Story of AncientNations – W.L.Westermann p. 73In 539 B.C…Cyrus advanced for the conquest of Babylonia. – History of the Hebrews – F.K.Sanders p. 230 Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 B.C.- The International Standard Bible En-cyclopedia V.1 p. 367JERUSALEM FELL The final destruction of the city[Jerusalem] was in …586 B.C. – Light from the Ancient Past – Jack Fineganp. 223 On the 7thday of the 5thmonth 586B.C. Jerusalem was destroyed. – En-cyclopedia Britannica Vol. 15 p.383 Nebuchadnezzar…destroyed Jerusa-lem…in 586 B.C – The EncyclopediaAmericana Vol. 16 p.31.Jerusalem fell.
The Temple of Jerusalem is exactly 539 nm from Babylon.
From my book:
“There is additional evidence for the supernatural correlation of
distance and year between Jerusalem and the nations. It involves the
fall of Jerusalem and the city of the exiled prophet Ezekiel. This is
significant with respect to Newton’s studies of the temple dimensions.
Although the temple of Ezekiel’s vision has never been built, it provided
the only concise measurement of the temple of God that could
be used to establish the divine proportion, or as Newton supposed,
the prophetic time scheme geometrically established in its layout.
The exile of the Israelites by the Babylonians occurred in two
parts: the first in 596 BC, and the second in 587 BC. Before Daniel,
the prophet Ezekiel was carried to exile in Babylonia by Nebuchadnezzar.
Ezekiel began predicting the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction
of its temple while living in a Jewish settlement near the city Nippur
in Babylonia.
The word of the LORD came expressly unto Ezekiel the
priest, the son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the
72 D A V I D F L Y N N
river Chebar; and the hand of the LORD was there upon
him.…Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have
set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round
about her. And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness
more than the nations, and my statutes more than the
countries that are round about her: for they have refused my
judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.…
Wherefore, as I live, saith the Lord GOD; Surely, because
thou hast defiled my sanctuary with all thy detestable things,
and with all thine abominations, therefore will I also diminish
thee; neither shall mine eye spare, neither will I have any
pity. Moreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among
the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that
pass by.10
Here, the world centrality of Jerusalem is mentioned. In contrast,
for thousands of years Nippur was the religious center of Mesopotamia.
Sumerian myth deemed the city as the birthplace of humanity,
created by the deity Enlil. In the same way that Rome legitimized
political power in the Holy Roman Empire in Europe, Babylonian
rulers looked to Nippur for spiritual favor and power. Nippur remained
the religious heart of Mesopotamia throughout the reigns of
Assyrian and Babylonian kings. Ezekiel’s prophecy defined the polarization
of spiritual centers on the Earth, Nippur of Babylon against
God’s center of power in Jerusalem. The Jews living with Ezekiel
considered the destruction of Jerusalem impossible, believing that
God would protect the city forever. Ezekiel’s message of doom, delivered
through Nippur, a city diametrically opposing the God of Israel,
demonstrated the extent to which Israel had rebelled against God’s
covenant with them.
In 596 BC, Nebuchadrezzar set Zedekiah, the third son of Josiah,
on the throne of Judah. Soon after, Zedekiah conspired with Egypt and
T H E T E M P L E A T T H E C E N T E R O F T I M E 73
revolted against Babylon. In 587 BC, Nebuchadrezzar sent a massive
army against Jerusalem, which forced King Zedekiah to flee through
a water tunnel under the city—known as Zedekiah’s tunnel—but was
captured, had his eyes put out, and was taken to Babylon. A month
later, Jerusalem was destroyed, and the majority of the people of Judah
were carried into exile. This began the second captivity.11
The settlement of Jews hearing Ezekiel’s prophecy of the destruction
of Jerusalem lived along the Chebar canal in the city Nippur,
which was located 587 miles from the temple of Jerusalem.12
David
Here’s the solution to the debate. Let anyone who has questions to the veracity of the “time=distance from the temple of Jerusalem” phenomena measure the distances themselves using Google Earth.
Temple to Babylon 539 Statute miles (sorry if I inadvertently listed nautical miles previously, it was late) Fall of Babylon 539 BC
Temple to Nippur 587 SM Fall of Jerusalem 587 BC
Temple to pass at battle of Issus 333 SM… In 333BC
Temple to London center 1,948 NM Rebirth of Israel 1948 AD
Temple to Paris center island 1799 NM Napoleon’s declaration of independence of Jewish state 1799AD
Temple to Mecca 666 NM (a symbolic anomaly)
Temple to Susa 666 NM Site of Ezekiel’s “end of day’s prophecies” (also an anomaly)
The dates of “BC” correlate to statute miles and the dates “AD” correlate to nautical miles and symbolic anomalies…why? I can only speculate that the centrality of the temple in time and space is related to the Messiah whose architectural symbol is “the temple” and our current era is anchored to His advent, i.e., the year of our Lord.
In addition, one can always read the book.
David F
Dear David,
Thanks for sharing your research so passionately! It’s great to hear from the author himself on such topics. Many subscribers to the Berean Online Fellowship of K-House at http://www.khouse.org/pages/mcat/first_time_here/ had many questions which you’re answering here in Don’s forum. Mike Heiser indicated to me he’s doing everything possible to finish his latest book. Consequently he won’t be able to read your book before June 2009.
One thing’s for certain. It will be the ultimate God-glorifying experience hearing the Lord’s personal insights and instruction on this and all topics when we’re finally all together in His presence!
John
David Flynn said “Here’s the solution to the debate. Let anyone who has questions to the veracity of the “time=distance from the temple of Jerusalem” phenomena measure the distances themselves using Google Earth.”
Actually David I do not see what you listed as a solution to the debate. Nobody doubts that the time distances that you mentioned exist. Although one might question the accuracy of the calender in general.
What I surmise is that the dates and events at the distances that you chose were probably chosen because these were the ones that worded out of hundreds of possible locations and historical choices that did not work out by a “time= distance” from the temple perspective. Will the “time = distance” theory statistically stand-up to be significantly beyond chance in the light of all other possible combinations?
Granted, the dates and significance of the events to Israel that you mentioned when taken together seem to validate your theory but I am not an expert on the number of choices and just how many locations you had to choose from that relate in some way to Israel.
I think before you are going to get a significant portion of Christianity to buy into your “time=distance”, those with real expertise will need to verify that all this is significantly higher than mere chance.
Having said that. A God that is all knowing with total control can also have everything on earth work out to mathematical precision in “time=distance” from His temple if He so wants. So I do not discount that might be a possibility. But I am not sure what would be the point and what that knowledge would bring to those living in these last days. Especially if it cannot be supported as a signature of God by Christian historians and statistical mathematicians?
It also seems by what you said that prophets like Ezekiel were getting messages from the Lord through “time=distance” codes and other mathematical tools. What does that do to divine revelation where every Letter was inspired in scripture? Was God really speaking to Ezekiel and His other prophets or just using formulas that he brought to their mind? In the later case you can just throw out the God breathed scriptures.
Which David, brings me back to the question that I asked a couple of posts ago that you probably overlooked in all the other posts.
“There seems to be some controversy here if you are actually predicting something prophetic to occur in the 2012-2013 era based on your time-distance from the Temple theory or on your other works. Are you claiming any future dated fulfillment of prophecy based on your own discoveries?”
Why is that critical to the study of end time prophecy and Christians? Because those that have attempted to set dates have historically always been proven wrong. Those who are putting their neck on the line for 2012-2013 AD run out of time in three or four years surely to be replaced by the 2018-2019 crowd. After that, if we even get that far, will arrive the 2028-2033 crowd. Someone eventually will be right since every year is picked by someone. However, Jesus will come on God’s timing and is certainly not likely to fulfill the timing of man’s latest date setting formula.
Dear David,
Would you please drop me a note at john.hoben@soldiersbibleministry.org as I have some additional questions to ask you?
Thanks, Dr. Flynn!
John
David Flynn wrote: “In addition, one can always read the book.”
Now there’s an idea.
Don wrote: “There seems to be some controversy here if you are actually predicting something prophetic to occur in the 2012-2013 era based on your time-distance from the Temple theory or on your other works. Are you claiming any future dated fulfillment of prophecy based on your own discoveries?”
Don, I believe that’s already been laid out here in these comments…
Great discussion going on here. My inbox has been fun again 🙂
Hi Chris I do not think that has been established that he does not claim some 2012-2013 event at all since different people have different opinions and Flynn wrote other books and speaks on various programs. For example right here on this blog we have:
“okay i seen an article on WND that does say that Flynn did recalculate a 2013 date for the end of the world. You can read about this in the new quote I inserted in this post or you can go directly to
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=75434”
“RianD said “According to the message at Roswell, we have only to wait a few years.”(end quote)
So he clearly acknowledges that 2012 he believes is a date of something significant, but is careful not to say its the year of the Lords return”
I am wondering if Dr. Flynn is familiar with the original designers and builders of the Statue of Liberty. I understand that the statue was built by the Freemasons in Paris, France, and that the contention that it is a symbol of freedom, is not true. It was a gift from freemasons in france to freemasons in the United States. Also, the torch was originally to be a “cup”.
Anyway, I would like anyone to comment on this.
Thank you,
Dave Trelstad
Buffalo, MN
Yes, Mr. Trelstad – see Flynn’s analysis beginning on page 269 of his book. Flynn makes some very interesting observations.
John
Hey Don.
Are you one of those guys who are forced to live in you car and visit blogs via library computers? If you need the money to actually buy and read Flynn’s book I will pay. Or if you would like I’ll send you a copy.
Everyone today is a critic it seems. A blind art critic at least is indeed unable to see, but you are worse, you have decided to be blind.
I believe I mentioned on this Blog that I have better things to waste my time with. Nothing on this post thus far has changed that view and there are several summaries of the book by various people.
If I thought the main theory of the book was credible I would certainly buy it. People ask Dr. Heiser the same thing. Please note what he said above on John Hoben’s post.
If you want to believe every theory you read in someone’s book be my guest. I get plenty of unsolicited manuscripts that all have their own theories. How can I possibly verify or scientifically debunk what someone else spent years putting together? Just because I do not have the data and skills does not mean that I should buy into the theory. I think I will wait for the book to come out that debunks it when or if it ever gets anywhere near the attention of the “Bible Codes”.
Many Christians should be doing something more productive than looking for hidden messages in the Bible. Most “Christians”have not read through through the clear text even once in their lives but they do find time to read and buy into books about hidden messages.
food for thought – enoch said there are actually 364 days in a year – fallen angels bound hand and foot 70 months times 100 is 7000 years. assume to year 0 this was accurately kept. assume 7000 years to 1948 when israel became a nation. assume that 666 is 666 months which is 55.5 years. assume that counting time from year 0 to 2012 was calculated by 365 day year. now assume it should have continued as 364 day year. which would be difference of approximately 5.5 years. which could mean count back 50 years from 2012 to get rough estimate birth year of antichrist. this might also mean that calculating 666 is to mid tribulation of 2012. assumeing that this is the year that antichrist would actually become the beast predicted by encarnate of the antichrist risen. that year would approximately be 1960 to 1961 his age would be 47 or 48 now and would be age 50 at mid-trib point of 2012.
To Food for thought: A very interesting observation!
Could the United States Capitol be the new Temple? The new “Holy Place”? Many learned bible scholars believe that the United States is the “new” Israel, and that the anglo saxon, scandinavian white western europeans, Christians, among others, are the true Israelites, and that the Israelis of today in Israel are not from the House of Israel or the House of Jacob, but imposters. In fact many many Jews agree with this theory. They admit it openly!
Israel of today, in no way shape or form, fulfills the description of the biblical Israel of the end times.
That’s my “food for thought”.
Mathew 24:15 KJV: When you see the “abomination (Obamanation) of desolation”, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, “Standing” in the holy place. (Whoso readith, let him understand.)
More Mormon propaganda and nonsense and hate speech against Jews.
And guys, we are not going down that road on this post. Either stay on the post topic or spout your drivel somewhere else.
Well, excuse me!
I don’t think you are as well read or educated as you think you are.
Your comments in regard to my last post are rediculous.
Mormon propaganda, my foot!
Why don’t you admit it. You are just another thick headed know-it-all skeptic.
Read the damn book, and a few others while you’re at it.
Merry Christmas.
you misread me completely, i believe that any country that is not in allience with israel is not in God’s good grace and protection! The Jews are God’s chosen peope that eventually led to Jesus Christ our lord and Savior! His Covenant Promise is to the Jews, However, His offer of Salvation has been offered to the Gentile peope due to the Jew’s failure to accept Jesus as promised Lord and Savior! But, under no circumstance doe’s that make us Jewish! Being Jewish is not like being a Baptist, Catholic, or any other denomination, it is of a ethnic nature! God gave firm warning against claiming to be Jewish for birthright purposes in Revelation’s! I simply cannot understand how some religion’s such as Jahovah’s Witnesses have so wrongly mis-interpreted this simple fact of discernment from scripture! I challenge anyone to pray and ask for spiritual discernment of scripture and
God’s guidence not man’s to interpret God’s precious word! Numbers i gave are for people of discernment and wisdom to work from as a platform – I did not fill in all the gaps for you – only trying to make you realize that calculation of meaning 666 number of Beast is to help predict who might be Anti-Christ useing this formula correctly! This is only based on leaders that have prophetic happenings foretold in Revelation’s, and apocalyptical books left out of Canon, as well as Daniel, and other prophet books of the Bible that are essentiall to understand certain parts of Revelation’s! God said we can not, and should not try to predict exact day and hour, but made it clear to follow signs, and pray for discernment, and His Wisdom to understand what He thinks is necessary for us to understand! This might not give us exact calculation’s, However I believe it will put us in close enough proximity to understand pertinent information that God doe’s want us to understand. His main key to know where to begin calculation’s of 7 year tribulation and end time events started with Israel becomeing a Nation again, which occured in 1948! Good Luck! Please be cautious not to overstep boundaries set by God that he clearly warned us about!
David Trelstad,
I don’t care much what you think of me. What should I expect of a neo-Nazi anyway?
Your right, your views are not Mormon your views are Christian Identity white supremacy. In other words, you are a neo-Nazi.
“The U.S. the capitol of the new Temple”, indeed! “Many learned Bible scholars believe the U.S. is new Israel”, indeed! That is total C R A P.
Everything you said was totally ridiculous. Only ignorant Jew haters believe such unfounded lies. Then you tell me that I am not well educated when you cannot even discern moronic lies and your even stupid enough or satanic enough to post your hated for Israel in some off topic remark on a Christian blog.
To all posting.
This is not a post for anyone to post any theory that comes to their mind. Stay on topic or you will be deleted and if necessary banned from posting on this blog.
You call me a Nazi?
Yup, I was right, you don’t know anything.
I think there are a lot of books you haven’t read besides “The Temple at the Center of Time.”
You are a nasty man.
I’m outta here!
David Trelstad said,
“I think there are a lot of books you haven’t read besides “The Temple at the Center of Time.””
Duh! Great thinking. I guess you read all the billions of books yourself? I don’t know what “The Temple at the Center of Time” has to do with the your neo-Nazi white supremacy hate speech anyway?
Your outta here all right because Replacement Theology Jew haters certainly do not belong posting here.
Hi Don! Getting this discussion back on track to David’s book, here are some thoughts to your question (of course, I hope Dr. Flynn will re-join us at this point!)
To me, David Flynn’s heart and intent is warning all citizens of the world of massive world order shifts in 2012. This is based on: 1) other materials presented on Flynn’s website, 2) having spoken with (over a very hospitable dinner in their home) other fellow believers like Sue Bradley and her husband, 3) Tom Horn’s materials who endorsed David Flynn’s book, and 4) in dialog with Dr. Mike Heiser (who wrote a novel titled: “The Facade” which everyone, Christian or not, should read at http://www.facadethebook.com/ for some great factual historical information woven into the storyline and a view for future events to pass, many of which predict around the 2012 / 2013 timeframe). What Flynn eludes to in the book is what great importance the Temple plays in world history, specifically when it is rebuilt in Jerusalem, and that there are many “illuminated” ones in today’s world leadership that envision this temple being rebuilt within the next decade.
I do agree with you, Don in that its dangerous to predict prophetic events with specific dates and times given the failure rate of such past predictions. Todd Strandenberg’s “Date Setters Diary” has dozens of failed predictions throughout history listed at http://www.raptureready.com/rr-date-setters.html for example. Again, I reiterate, David Flynn does NOT do such things in his book. He merely re-emphasizes what Jesus Christ Himself told believers to do, and that was to watch (which still takes tertiary priority behind loving God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves).
As you accurately point out, Jesus will come on God’s timing and is certainly not likely to fulfill the timing of man’s latest date setting formula. Thank God Himself for this fact!
John Hoben
Hi John,
Hope you had a nice Christmas.
I am aware that all this is a mixture of the 2012-2013 expectations because of Mayan pagan calenders, ufology and Illuminati theories. I do not disagree that something earth shaking will happen within the next twenty years but as you know I do not think that 2012 or 2013 warrants any more significance then say – 2010 or 2030.
I think the fall of U.S. will come before end time events and that fall is more likely in our current period than some fulfillment of the “great delusion” of end time prophecy. Also, Israel must still see the war of Psalm 83 and the war of Ezekiel 38 and 39 before any of this. So to me 2012-13 is about two decades too early.
I do not think when the Lord told us to watch, that the Lord was telling us to try to figure out the timing of these events based on such dubious theories. In fact, the scripture says “in an hour you think not the Lord cometh” Matt 24:44.
I read “The Facade” and I do not recall any suggestion about a 2012-2013 fulfillment? However, all these books do agree with a future satanic deception based on fallen angels posing as Alien beings with an antichrist message. With that I do agree.
Thanks, Don – yes we had a very blessed Christmas and hope you did as well!
You’re right. Heiser names no specific 2012-2013 dates as part of an alien strong delusion. My point about Flynn making this timeframe significant is the number of self-proclaimed ‘illuminaries’ that point to this date. There will be a lot of self-fulfilling prophecy activity in that timeframe based on pre-conceived, ill-founded beliefs based on things as whacky as the measurements of the Great Pyramid of Giza’s internal chambers, pointing to Sirius, and other pseudo-science occult nonsense. With technologies originally developed by Nicola Tesla and others that have not been introduced “until the right time”, many false flags and other ‘signs and wonders’ will no doubt be ushered in to deceive even the elect, if it were possible.
That’s what makes the 2012-2013 timeframe so significant. Self-fulfilling prophecy from mis-guided replacement theologians and other mis-guided groups.
God bless us all!
John
Better things to do with your time than actually read the book you presume to critique? You started this thread didn’t you?
Does anyone see the error in Don’s reasoning here?
Don suggests that people who actually take the time to read books are inexplicably compelled to believe the theories contained therein. According to Don’s logic, I would have to agree with Hitler’s Mien Kampf, Marx’s Communist Manifesto, McClain’s Out On a Limb as well as the New Testament simultaneously! I could argue about any of them without ever opening one. If I heard what someone else said once, or if I felt very “strongly” enough about what I thought, I would then have license to speak my mind.
There is no arguing with the unreasonable and no dialogue with the willfully ignorant.
I’ve never met you Don but maybe I can practice your technique.
Perhaps you are not as educated and intelligent as you think? (Someone made that comment here already. Enough for me to agree.)
Perhaps your attention span limits you from reading and comprehending long sentences? ( I’m guessing but I really feel that it must be true)
Hay John are you trying to get banned? I assure you any more personal attacks on me will just achieve that.
Did you even read what I said when I made this post? Talk about having a reading compression problem! I said experts will critique the main theory of this book, those that are trained in statistics and the number of possible selections for the time=distance code. However, if they do not it will be because the book was never popular enough or believable enough for anyone with these scientific skills to waste their time writing a book to refute the time=distance code.
I make it quite clear in my post that I had not read the book. I thought I made it clear that I think that those who are looking for hidden codes in the Bible might as well be reading tea leaves. My post was really a Christian discernment argument saying don’t get sucked into another Bible Code waste of time. The Bible clearly teaches what we need to know. Get the written word right and stop looking for hidden messages so you can figure out when the Antichrist will come. He cannot come until he that hinders is taken out of the way. It is in God’s timing and not found in hidden codes. If He wanted us to know the date He would have told us. Believe it or not Satan can read so the date is not given anywhere and it is not in code.
I also think that in all this discussion no one (certainly not you) has put up any argument that leads me to believe otherwise. If you want me to take the time to read the book you might convince me that I was wrong about what I said about the theory instead of taking the approach you are taking. Are you making money off the book and that is why you are here? Otherwise where is your argument in support of the time= distance theory? If you have no argument and you only came here to attack me you will soon be gone.
I never told anyone not to read the book and never said that anyone would be inexplicably compelled to believe the theories in it. Although those who read such theories are obviously looking for hidden messenges and many will be swayed. I gave as an example “The Bible Code” which I did read and a decade later there are still many thousands of Christians wasting their time looking for tea leaves in a theory that has been scientifically debunked.
I just think all this is a great waste of time for Christians. Believe it or not, I have much more to do than time to do it. Other people can do what they want with their own time but I am not going to waste mine because someone thinks they found hidden codes in the Bible. Mr Flynn is not the first to claim hidden messages in the Bible. One could waste their life checking out such claims and that is just what it would be. A wasted life.
It is quite obvious that many people were influenced by the books you quoted and the concepts in them led to the deaths of millions and damned many souls. Book are about as harmless as the tongue. Anyone who thinks people are not swayed by concepts in books is a fool.
I would have to agree with Don: this is a spiritual discernment issue.
Not only is this kind of thing harmful in that it takes our focus away from the scriptural teachings that may be ascertained simply by reading, it also cheapens Scripture by lowering it to levels we would expect of say, Nostradamus or Edgar Cacey. God indeed works incredible miracles and He is fully able to make the Bible match an MD5 hash if He wanted. But would He? Recall the Jesus’ teaching of the rich man and Lazarus: The rich man begged that Abraham send Lazarus back to the living to tell the rich man’s brothers to turn to God. Abraham told him that his brothers have Moses and the prophets. The rich man insisted saying that someone coming back from the dead would convince them (certainly a powerful miracle!). But Abraham said that if they would not listen to Moses and the prophets, then not even a resurrection miracle would convince them. Likewise, we have God’s Word; if the unbelieving world will not turn to God through it, then interesting mathematical relationships in the Bible or within our geography will not convince them. I am strongly convinced that this is a time waster for most people, certainly the unsaved.
What would convince the unsaved? Well, I was your typical “Carl Sagan” type of atheist. I would use my “intellectual armor” to protect myself from the “foolishness” of Christ. My pride was think and I would not let such myths get past my shield — to the most important, inner parts of my being where I struggled to understand why good and evil flourished, and why I was both good and evil. No, such knowledge of “Bible Codes” and other things would not have helped me — I’d simply rationalize them away if I did not dismiss them out of hand as coming from a bunch of “rubes trying to appear intelligent.” No, what brought me to the Cross was seeing Jesus live in other people, especially in a person who’s intellect I admired and who’s integrity was evident. This person addressed my “intellectual” concerns and when I was past those barriers, I was able to humble myself to read Scripture (Romans) and to bare my inmost parts to God. My coming to Christ was a painful and time-consuming process, but “intellectual toys” such as Bible Codes or the topic of this thread would have made it even more difficult for me to cast myself upon Jesus because it would have given me yet another excuse to run.
Jesus told us to watch for His coming, but that we would not know exactly when it would occur. A useful analogy I read recently puts it this way: We’ve been told to ride a certain bus and we’ve been given a schedule. So we know where to go, what to do, what to look for, and about when we should expect the bus to arrive. Nevertheless, we will not know the exact time the bus arrives until it actually does.
when I said 70 months – I meant 70 generations times 100 as told in book of Enoch! God said do not add to or take away from my word! Enoch was taken out of Canon even though it was in the Canon at first. God felt that Enoch was so righteous in His eyes that Enoch did not die God took him! Book of Enoch is significant for prediction of the flood, explanation of fallen angels, and sin brought to Earth as a result, and then applies to end times that I personally believe that we are in! If you read the book of Enoch you will realize how important it is to understand Revelations, just as book of Daniel is! I believe that it is possible that what God meant in Revelations – let he who has wisdom calculate the number of the beast did in fact mean just that! A calculation to run on birth date and year born of person coming into power that seem’s to have a lot of prophecy surrounding them that would either give credibility to indeed keep watch over them or kick them out of the mix entirely! When God said do not predict hour, day or year – He meant just that – But – obviously meant us to watch signs, pray for discernment, and be prepared – Because, He said to keep your clothes close to you as to not be imbarrassed in all your naked glory when you are suddenly whisked into the sky to meet Him! If He did not intend for us to have a pretty good idea! We all most certainly would be taken by suprise by the rapture event that is predicted! I have tried different calculations of 666 and the most impressive is this! I you multiply 70 generations times 100 that gives 7000 years Fallen Angels bound hand and foot in valleys of the Earth. If you calculate 7000 times 364 days then write that number down – then multiply 2012 times 364 days and write that down – and then multiply 365 days times 2012 and write that down – now subtract the 365 day times 2012 calculation from the 364 day year times 2012 calculation and see that it comes to approximately 5.5 years. Now devide 666 months by 12 and see that that gives you 55.5 years! Possible significance is the 5.5 year difference! Now if you assume that year 2012
might possibly be significant and subtract the 5.5 years from 55.5 that gives 50. Now 2012 minus 50 years is 1962 but if that persons birthdate was midyear that would be 1961 year born. That person would be 47 now at start of reign in 2008 and would be 50 years old at mid tribulation in year 2012! now 47 in 2008 – 48 in 2009 – 49 in 2010 – 50 in 2011 and if that persons birthdate were in August turning 50 in 2011 in January the start of year 2012 that person would still be 50 – right! Whether you calculate difference of the 364 day year or go by 365 day year from year 0 to 2012 you will see how strangely the numbers begin to triangulate no matter how you figure it! I’m not saying it is factuall answer – just that it is significant enough of a coincidence to consider it when trying to figure out possible calculations! I will even bet that you will see how some of the big time televangelist made their mistakes working off of these numbers from different angles! I was more than supprised to see just how on track they were! That is why we should always figure from probability not – this is the way it is – I’m right your wrong – attitude! God said the meek shall inherit the Earth – not the proud who think they are above everyone! His calculation hints were’nt just meant for the smartest – but – the wisest through Him – His Wisdom that is – not Our’s! If we try to figure it out without Him we might as well give up right now!
The book of Enoch never made the Canon. Books were never taken out of the Canon. The manuscripts of the book of Enoch were apparently already corrupted at the time the Canon was voted in so Enoch did not make it into the Canon. Anything you have now called the book of Enoch is also corrupted. It is not God’s word. It may be true that the book of Enoch was known by some in the time of Jesus but I do not think we have what they used. There probably is some useful information in some Enoch manuscripts that helps explain what happened prior to the flood but since what is said is probably someones opinion written thousands of years after the fact, I certainly would not take anything said to the bank.
The importance of this book as well as the writing of Josephus and others is that people of Jesus time did believe that angels came to earth and did produced offspring on the earth called the Nephilim. They corrupted all flesh and caused God to send the flood. However, there is no reason to believe that what is in Enoch is a true account of what actually happened.
Where in the Book of Enoch does it say 70 generations times 100 anyway? I recall nothing of the sort, and which book of Enoch manuscript are you claiming says that?
Your calculations also are a perfect example of the gymnastics people will play to come up with a date of their choosing. By the way, none of this has anything to do with the post topic.
I believe that things that I have mentioned have just as much connection to your story line as does any other. Study the book of Enoch again – I had to read it through three times to see some of the details that I mentioned. Then study up on Scientology and hopefully – if you have any discernment what so-ever – you will see that they built there Religion on the basis of what book of Enoch talks about – except that they have aligned themselves with the enemy rather than God. The fallen Angels – that in modern times refer to themselves as Rebel Angels, which entices a lot of people – “do to Hollywood films”, that depict being a Rebel – as something we all secretly desire – hence appealling to the Rebel in us all merely defying authority – so to speak – Deviently trying to lower God’s image – to be no greater than – these so called Rebel Angels – in order to give it a whitewashed story line that makes “satanism”, as a matter of fact – seem admireable – rather than to see it for what it really is! A “parable”, to explain this image they want to create – is to make it no more than – two brothers fighting for the right to recieve the inheritance, and or, Throne if applied to Royalty. Not only that – but, “working”, Hollywood’s magic – of making you want to root for the bad guy to win – all depending on how they present their story line. Read book of Enoch – then watch recent film – “The Golden Compass”, and tell me what you see. I have always heard that after rapture the world Religion would be Satanism. I found this hard to accept, knowing some of the really intelligiant people – I know! These people might not be raptured out because of their beliefs, but I don’t feel will make them become Satanist! No matter what I know God say’s a person has to “believe”. to have Salvation – I just could not see some of these people willingly taking up Satanism instead! But through what my discernment is showing me what Scientology is doing to the truth – by twisting it all around to make it attractive – just as Satan would do! I now can see – just how people might be so easily disceaved – into believing this half truth, and adding what appeals to mankind of this day and time to the mix of things. They won’t call it, “Satanism”, rather they might call it something that does not seem so bad on the surface. Oh! I believe, they feel “just”, in their beliefs, “however”, that is what makes me so very -sad, when I contemplate it. They feel they have been let in on some kinda secret that is meant for the Intellectual community, that only they know about! Wrong! read Enoch and listen to what he reveals, and then – tell me you know a secret – that us dumb, shallow, narrow minded Christian’s know nothing about. Enoch gained more credibility in my opinion based on the work’s of the oppossition! Using that knowledge of History for the wrong side. They do not realize that they are championing the Enemy! These people will recognize the Anti – Christ rising as their Champion and Hero! It all fits so well of what is predicted to happen – people flocking to side of Satan in belief that in numbers they will Win! Wrong! They can not win against their Creator anymore than we could. That would be like myself creating a robot that later tried to challenge me, “his creator”, thinking it could overcome me, when I and only I, know the program, that would shut it down, with only one click! Am I right, or wrong, You be the judge!
Perhaps we should not take all the myths and legends for granted, and should re-evaluate all. Based on what Enoch was told by Angels to and God to come back and tell is should be listened to more sincerely! After all Enoch was withheld in God’s eyes as righteous enough to be taken from this Earth without dying afterall! Read Genensis and Jude, what they have to say about Enoch as a Man of God! Enoch did not write everything because he recited part of it to his son Methuselah to write for him for he knew his time was short! God warned in Revelations as well as other books to not add or take from his word did he not! Perhaps God allowed book of Enoch to be taken out of Canon because his book applied to Noah’s time and then not again till now this time, which is the last days on Earth! When it would once again be recognized as significant, and used once again to help understand our History and Future! This applies to your story line because, pyramid cultures were tought to us by the fallen Angels, as well as dark arts, magic, and so on … as God said that those fallen Angels knew about as told in Enoch! God said not only did you defile mankind as to purpose I created them for, but you tought them the dark arts of the worthless ones that you knew about! Which implies something that had to do with previous existence long before Us! God did not explain all to us for good reason and had not yet explained all to his very Angels yet either as He so said in book of Enoch! Some of the Sci – Fi films of recent years may have not just been apart of someone’s imagination! Even Stars Wars depicts good verses Evil, which suggest’s to me both God and the Enemies influence in the film content! God and the enemy try to influence us through all things until the end. Once you realize that you will see how God tries to communicate to us in every possible way imaginable because it is so important! Measure of pyramids has meaning – why not! They are representative of Stars in Heaven which just Might be spoken of in book of Enoch that you are so ready to dismiss! Searching for answers, well don’t dismiss everything that does not make since to you now, for it just might be the answer of your prayer to the future!
The common thread between Scientology and the occult and the films is that all have the same source – Satan. In fact all religion outside of true Christianity originates with doctrines of men blinded by Satan. I have no doubt that the religious belief in the last days will be that we can all become like God if we take the mark. That is Satanism but is not what the world calls Satanism. There is not a good and bad side to the occult it is all Satanic. So it is not a matter of people taking up what the world calls Satanism. All who have rejected the truth of the gospel have already taken up Satanism.
I agree that the myths and legends have some basis in fact. Also, I am not saying that Enoch was not a man of God obviously He was, but you cannot convince me that you have a copy of Enoch’s words recited to Methuselah. How did it survive the flood? And if it came from Noah and was passed down verbally how did it remain uncorrupted over time? The facts are that you do not have Enoch’s words. There are even huge differences in the different manuscripts claiming to be the words of that book.
You also did not answer my questions in my last comment. Which version of Enoch says seventy times 100 generations? I probably have the English translation copy you used right here so I want to know where it says what you claim?
You keep saying that Enoch was taken out of the Canon but I am telling you that it never was in the Canon! So site your expert source that claims it was?
Extra biblical books can help us know the thinking of people in ancient days but do not confuse extra biblical books with God’s word. Certain books did not make the Canon for good reason. They were not considered scripture. I read Enoch and I know that God did not speak such nonsense but that does not mean that every point in the book is invalid because these things were known to the people of ancient days. Nevertheless, what is called the book of Enoch today is not the words of Enoch or His son.
If you make a future comment address the questions I make or it will be deleted.
You ask, about the book of Enoch, “How did it survive the flood? And if it came from Noah and was passed down verbally how did it remain uncorrupted over time? ”
Apparently we are convinced the first 4 Chapters of Gensis were on the ark and are uncorrupted, why not the Books of Noah’s Great Grandfather? I would not recommend reading Enoch, if you’ve never read the Bible. Just as I would not recommend reading only Revelations. With a basic understanding of all the scriptures I occasionally read Enoch with the discernng questions, Does it support or negate the rest of the Bible?
And like Revalation I don’t understand it completely, yet I have not found it to not line up with the rest of the Word. I would not tell people to not consider it . Some other books banned by the Council of Laodicea were, Ephesians Philipians and Romans.
“We are convinced the first 4 chapters of Gensis were on the ark”? Who are we?
I think I have heard everything now. I guess you had to be there. The first five books of the Bible were actually written by Moses a very long time after the flood. The information apparently was given by God to Moses.
By the way, after the Council of Laodicea, Athanasius of Alexandria published a list of 27 New Testament books which were accepted by the Church in his time, and these are the same twenty-seven NT books which are recognized today.
The book of Enoch translation I have is edited and translated by R.H. Charles – I bought it at Hastings book store. First published in 1917 in the series translations of early documents.
Hi Chris,
All these claims are very subjective speculation. I agree with you that Enoch is off topic to this post and for that reason any more posts on Enoch will just be deleted.
The topic once again is David Flynn’s book with the time=distance theory
Don, there is some conservative scholarship that tends to side with the idea that some of the pre-historic sections of Genesis were actually written and passed down through Noah and Shem due to the way some sections are written. I believe Dr. Henry Morris is one of them who touches on it in his book ‘The Genesis Record’ among others.
Of course, this doesn’t prove the book of Enoch was, as it’s rather a hodgepodge of legend and thought at the time. Helpful, but not Scripture, as you’ve already stated.
It’s unfortunate this discussion has gotten quite a bit off-topic… it’s interesting, but not really helpful to the original post anymore.
I’ve read everything on this thread up to this point. In a perfect world we could all meet in one place and debate. It would also be far easier to establish what it was I tried to do with the book if everyone posting here had read it, otherwise I would not have gone to such trouble pinning down the research with end notes over the five years it took to put it together. 🙂
The component of “paganism” that I addressed in its pages was necessary to define the transition of religious and scientific thought during Newton’s life. Yes, the Jewish sages and the neoplatonists were not “saved” & Newton himself dabbled in the occult and was a heretic “if one reviews his beliefs on the Trinity with respect to the Church of England”. However, I saw the value of his temple research and through it discovered a manifestation of the universal power of God and additional proof of the infallibility of scripture.
The centrality of the temple site defines the Messiah as the center of the religious universe no less than the fulfillment of prophecy (all Messianic), the witness of the apostles and the working of the Holy Spirit in the lives of the saved. These things serve to strengthen the faith of the church. To keep my findings hidden and not share would have been tantamount to Jonah fleeing in a ship, at least, that was my experience.
And so it was and is my hope that the same Spirit would guide the reader to a greater understanding of God’s unwavering faithfulness in keeping his promises through the course of history.
It is an encouraging message… but it is lost if one does not read the book.
David,
Thanks for sharing the reason for writing the book and for reading the thread.
I asked this question twice before but have not received an answer. From your studies do you see any significance prophetic event occurring in the 2012-2013 period as the second quoted article of the original post suggests?
Don,
What I propose “might happen” near the end of the year 2012 is based
on the one number most often encountered in Scripture pertaining to the most important event in human history, which I believe you would agree with, the year of the
resurrection of Christ, 33 AD. Please bear with my reasoning. I know there is debate
around the actual year and date so I have taken pains to explain the whole picture.
Christ began his ministry at 30 years old. This is determined through
scripture and Mosaic law. As the word made flesh and author and
keeper of every one of the 613 laws,(365 “thou shalt not” and 248 “thou
shalt “) Christ kept the law stating that a Levite must be 30 years old
before serving in the Temple. This law is mentioned seven times in
Numbers chapter 4. Christ is the High priest and King as well as the sacrificial lamb.
Luke 3:23 does state that Jesus was 30 years old when he began His
ministry. Evidence in the Gospel of John points to three separate Passovers during Jesus’ ministry. This shows that Jesus ministered for 3 years and puts Jesus’ age at 33 years at His resurrection.
“Karlis Kaufmanis, professor emeritus of astronomy at the U of M, said
that countless inquiries have suggested the crucifixion took someplace
between the years 29 and 33. Astronomers have determined that only the years 30 and 33 satisfy biblical statements that Jesus died on a Friday followed by the Jewish
feast of Passover, celebrated on the first full moon of the spring.
“The crucifixion, therefore, would have taken place either on Friday,
April 7, A.D. 30, or on Friday, April 3, A.D. 33,” Kaufmanis said. “There
are no other possible dates.” The most important information attested
to in all the Gospels is that Jesus’ death occurred under the
administration of Pontius Pilate. Pontius Pilate held his position from
26–36, during which the only years in which Nisan 14 (Passover) fell on
a Friday were 27, 33, 36, and possibly also 30, depending on when the
new moon would have been visible in Jerusalem. The most commonly
cited dates are April 7, 30 and April 3, 33.
The number 33 stands out, not only in the year and chronological age in which Jesus made
eternal life possible for man but in numeric pattern of the act itself seen
in scripture. According to the gospels, Jesus remained dead for
perhaps 33 hours — from Friday afternoon until early on Sunday
morning. The Hebrew number 33 is spelled “lamed gimal” the reverse
of which is “gal”, a circle or circuit. Both Galilee, the focus of Jesus’
ministry and Golgotha are based on this word.
The suggestion of a circuit in time fits the typology of Christ’s work on
earth, as prominent in His first advent as well as His second. The
number 33 is an axis upon which this time signature is fixed. I’ll explain:
The basic measurement of time “hours”. Thayer’s lexicon explains that
the NT Greek for hour implies 1/12th of the day or a system based on
60 & 360 This system is at least 4,000 years old.
Both the “day” and navigation of the earth is based on 60 minutes
and 360 degrees in a circle. 33 is consistently found in Scripture associated with Messianic types. For ex., King David reigned for 33 years in Jerusalem. Jacob had 33 children by Leah.
Following the circumcision of the child, the mother could not go to the sanctuary until 33 days had passed.
I believe this symbolism of 33 is as specific in chronology for Christ’s second advent as it was for His first.
The hour itself, if divided into perfect thirds is calculated .33 x 60
minutes equals 19.8 minutes. Similarly 60 x 33 = 1,980. In navigation 33
degrees in any straight line over the earth’s surface results in 1,980
nautical miles.(this of course is averaging out the flattening at the
poles). True, 60 divided by 3 equals “20” but this does not take into
account the function of the hour, where it can be demonstrated that
the minute read-out of a digital clock does not register “60” minutes,
only “59” before the overlap of the last hour.
The prophecies of Christ’s second coming are not yet
fulfilled. Therefore, it must occur at some appointed time in the future.
Between the years 2012 & 2013 there will be 1,980 years from the
Crucifixion at 33AD. Between the years 2009 & 2010 there will have
been 1,980 years from the Crucifixion if it occurred in 30AD.
33% of the 25,920 Platonic Year or the precession of the equinox is 8,640 years. If this “third’ of the Platonic year ends on 2012, it began 6,660 years before 33AD. (6,660 + 1,980 years = 8,640)
I have also noticed a recurring “33” theme embedded in the topology of
Jerusalem, all based on the 4,000 year old 360 degree “circuit” and 60 minute
system.
The temple lies 33.33 miles from the Mediterranean sea. The shortest
distance lies at an azimuth 19.8 degrees west, north west.
From 33.30 (33.5 decimal) latitude north to the latitude of the temple
mount at 31.47 (31.77 decimal) there are 1.72999 degrees or 103.7
nautical miles. 103.7 is (PI x 33).
PI, ‘ 3.14159256…’ is the most basic expression of a
circuit.
From 33.33 latitude north to Bethlehem there are 111 nautical miles…(3 ones)
Bethlehem itself lies at latitude 31.41minutes 59 seconds, or 10 x PI.
Combine these global “33” focal points of Christ’s work with the fact that 33 hours and 33 minutes contains a total of 2,012.9 minutes the case for a prophetic time marker seems even more pronounced.
This is especially significant with respect to the other “time centered” functions
of the temple (as an architectural representation of Christ’s body) with respect to history and kingdoms as mentioned in my book. As the temple represents Christ body, our era
founded on his physical birth are linked, both in time and in space. This makes sense
because Christ, The Word of God, spoke time and space into being.
Therefore, to answer your question, finally, I believe that the end of the year
2012 is highly favorable for marking some portion of the last week of Daniel.
I lean towards the completion of the resurrection in the fullness of Christ’s body
the Church.
At this point the argument of dispensations & post, pre and mid tribulation resurrection
is raised. Because 2,520 days cannot possible fit before 12/21/2012 the only other two possibilities for this dates falling in alignment with Daniel’s last week is either at its beginning, but more probably the middle.
The Mayan calendar ends on the winter solstice of 2012 or 3 days before Christmas. It is
clear that the two witnesses of Rev.11 minister for 1,260 days and are then killed in Jerusalem and lie in its streets for 3 &1/2 days. During this time the world “makes merry and exchanges gifts”. Of course December 25th is 3 & 1/2 days after the winter solstice. When these “dead in Christ” rise, is it not said that those remaining alive will be next to rise and meet the Lord in the air?
Counting 1,260 days backwards from 12/21/2012 one arrives at the date july 10th 2009. This fits within the 1,980 year countdown from 30 AD, as well 2012 fits the 1,980 years from 33AD.
Revelation 3:3 demonstrates an interesting point: “Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.”
Axiomatically, those who watch “will” know.
I would be foolish to say I am 100% right in this timeline, but I will say that it is a mistake to dismiss it completely. We can wait to see what happens 1,260 days before 12/21/2012 that aligns with Daniel’s 70th week.
David,
Thanks for sharing all that.
I will let others evaluate what you said on your 33 theory. It would be true that Jesus would have had to die in 30AD or 33AD if Jesus actually died on Friday. But, Just to clarify my position on this I will just say I do not believe that Jesus died on Friday at all but I won’t get into why here because I know this tread will get off topic. I also believe the best modern sources that do not try to make the crucifixion fit to Friday say Jesus died in 32 AD. Also most scholars would say Jesus was born 4 to 6 BC which would make him older than 33 at His death. You take the traditional view of Jesus’ birth and death but I think the traditional view is wrong and if it is wrong that throws off your theory.
Luke 3:23 says Jesus was “about” 30 years old when he started his ministry that does not mean he was exactly thirty.
I would say the rapture could occur at any time but there is no way that I can see the start of the tribulation events occurring for at least a decade or two. The pieces just are not in place yet. Israel is not a peace like Ezkiel 38 and 39 describes and will not be at peace with 50,000 rockets pointed at her. Probably the war of Psalm 83 will rectify that problem but that war is most likely pretrib.
Gog has no great army to invade Israel and it will take at least ten to twenty years for Russia to build one. The two hundred million army out of the east is not humanly possible today and even if they could gather it, they could not destroy a third of the men on earth with the weapons they have. The technology is really not in place yet for the mark of the Beast system where no one can buy or sell. First you need a worldwide over the air communication system. That would be a decade off if they even started a world infrastructure program for that today. In my opinion there simply is no way that end time tribulation events are going to be fulfilled in the next decade or so.
Therefore, I think 2009 will come and go and 2013 will come and go but you all can believe what you want. We will not have long to find out.
I do invite other comments on what David said here and I will try to stay out of the picture unless the comment is directed at me or need a reply from me.
Forget 2012 and all the hype. Forget about the solar flare schedule for 2012 or near that, forget about the 4 lunar eclipses set to occur in 2012 all on jewish festivals in 2012, forget the mayan calendar, forget about the planetary alignment that has occured since 3 BC that will occur in 2012…even forget St. Malachi’s Prophecy of The Popes…which would have to culminate around 2012 or Benedict will be in his 90’s as Pope. Forget all that…It all comes down to HOW LONG IS THE LENGTH OF A GENERATION AS SPOKEN OF BY JESUS IN MATT. 24?
Is the return of the leaves and fruitfulness of the fig tree… Israel becoming a state in 1948? Then how long is the generation that shall not pass away until they see the coming of the Son of Man? My studies tend to put the generation at 70 years…from Psalm 90:10. That puts us at roughly 2012 that the AC should assume reign, take control, be voted in, rise to power, etc.
where am I going wrong?
First lets talk what you want us to forget about because since you brought these things up it obviously gives some support for your 2012 tribulation start in your mind and in the mind of others.
This solar cycle so far has been a dud so don’t assume there has to be major flares in 2012. Even if there are, there have always been solar cycles and flares so that in itself proves nothing about the start of the tribulation.
Find me a Mayan and maybe I will believe in their calendar. They were pagans and a civilization that God destroyed so why should a Christian think they can find truth about His return in a pagan culture calendar? For Mayan’s the age ended a long time ago.
The St. Malachi prophecy is very subjective and even if the next pope is the last pope it does not necessarily mean what some people imply it means. Even the Catholic church thinks there could be many popes between this one and the last one mentioned in the prophecy. Even if the prophecy is true and is correctly interpreted It does not mean that the last Pope will become the False Prophet on day one of his reign. The next pope could be a young man.
Now about the fig tree parable that really is one subjective tree to hang all your fig baskets on. 🙂
Hal Lindsey once thought the parable meant all would be accomplished in forty years from 1948, so it will all be accomplished no later than 1988.
Jack Van Impe also thought a generation was 40 years and thought the tribulation would start in the 80’s. When that did not pan out he figured up a generation is 51.3 years and now that this date has come and gone he say it should be a generation from when Israel won Jerusalem in 1967.
I do not know what studies you do but there is no indication from scripture that Jesus was talking about 70 years. People assume 70 years now because the more scriptural forty and fifty year generations did not work out. They say the Bible says a lifespan is 70 or 80 years but going from that to making a generation fit the fig tree parable is one huge leap of logic. Even assuming a generation was 70 years would it be from 1948 or 1967, or would it really be from the time the generation that saw the signs that Jesus first talked about in that passage? Have we even seen any of those signs? Perhaps. Perhaps not.
Here is where I think you are going wrong.
Jesus said the generation that saw what he was talking about would not pass away before He returns. He did not say that the date of that generation starts on the day the UN created the nation of Israel.
He did not say it would start on the date that Israel took Jerusalem either.
One should assume that if a generation observes the signs that He talked about that the people of that generation should be old enough to have sound reason to understand the signs. Lets assume that means that Jesus is talking about a generation of adults over the age of 20 who see the first signs that he mention. The passage then implies that this generation would see the rest of it fulfilled as well. The most likely period for a generation in the Bible is 40 years there are many examples of that. So it seems to me that Jesus is saying that all would be completed within 20 years or less of the first sign. So maybe 15 years maybe even less? Anything more coming out of that passage is speculation, very subjective and nothing to hang your hat on.
Furthermore, nobody talks about the leaves on the fig tree. What are the leaves on the fig tree? The passage really requires that the generation would start when the Fig Tree puts forth leaves not when the fig tree was still barren. Perhaps we have not even seen the leaves of the Fig Tree yet? Maybe the leaves are when Israel conquers the nearby Arab nations in the war of Psalm 83 and expands its borders after their defeat. Maybe the leaves are a religious awaking in Israel?
You are going wrong because you are hanging your hat on subjective interpretations of what Jesus meant in a parable. I think some things still have to be fulfilled before Jesus will return. I am not talking about the Rapture that can occur at any time it does not have to occur seven years before the end like some think.
I give reasons why the world will be ripe for the harvest in about two decades in my below 25 article series. From my studies the world will be ripe for the harvest around 2035 AD give or take several years.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/reason%20why%20we%20are%20in%20the%20last%20days.htm
Don, I understand your take and while I don’t think you’re making a mistake here, I think you’re being a little too dismissive about the Mayans themselves. Yes, they were pagans, but they also happened to possess a mind-boggling and anachronistic knowledge of our universe that they were not supposed to have during their age. Their ancient monuments nonetheless testify of an advanced knowledge. The Mayans had three different calendars and their solar calendar is more accurate than the one we are using today.
What the 2012 “believers” are doing is of course deceptive. They call it the Mayan “prophecies” while December 2012 simply marks the end of a particular period of time called a baktun, which is part of their “Long Count” calendar, and the beginning of a new one. There are several baktuns which come and go only to return after some time. History was seen as a self-repeating set of baktuns, a cycle. Each baktun had different characteristics assigned to it. The baktun that is to end in december of 2012 will mark the beginning of a new period, or baktun, one that according to the Mayas will be a golden age.
The Ancient Egyptians, the Sumerians and their Semitic successors, the ancient civilizations of South Asia and the Andes were all downright pagan and yet at the same time they were also great astronomers and builders who had an extraordinary understanding of the universe and built monuments lacking the tools we deem necessary for the task so that even our modern technology is unable to rival the remarkable precision of these ancient builders. I believe that much of this now esoteric knowledge has been passed to the Ancients by fallen angels similar to what the first part of the book of Enoch tells us about the fallen ones teaching witchcraft, etc.
Now all that in itself is no reason to actually “believe” the Mayan prophecy or the Popol Vuh, etc. It is NOT a godly revelation that is to be taken for the Word of God. It is not God’s word and the Mayans indeed were pagans with a truly demonic cult worship which even involved human sacrifice. The Spanish were actually quite right to be fearful of their superstitions and to convert them. In that other Meso-American civilization, that of the Aztecs, warm chocolate was drunk mixed with human blood. So for all the advanced astronomical/astrological knowledge they possessed, they were still a primitive and barbarian people because they were under the spell of demons.
Those who choose to blindly believe in the Mayan prophecies should ask themselves what to make of Hindu cosmology. The Hindus also have their version of the “Mayan” calendar and we are currently said to be living in the worst of ages, the Kali Yuga. This period is also going to have to end sometime. Well, so far so good. Many characteristics of the Kali Yuga pretty much apply today only I don’t care that people drink (unless too much) and eat meat because I’m not a Hindu. Anyway, why not believe their version of the cycle of time instead of the Mayan one? Of course there is a reason why there is a hype about the Mayan calendar and it is the influence of the Freemasons and the New Agers of our days who think it marks the beginning of “their” golden age of Self-Enlightenment and Christ-Consciousness or whatever spiritual drivel they believe in, and marks the end of the age of Pisces, the Christian age, now that Aquarius is soon going to replace Pisces as the dominant constellation for the next two thousand years or so.
But I digress. To summarize, the 2012 issue contains truth like so many pagan mythological calendars do. But the only reason it contains some truth is that it is a distortion of the truth. But make no mistake about it, a half truth is still a lie and often a very good lie. Because yes, there will certainly be a dawn of a new age soon but it will be when the Antichrist assumes control. How good is that? Good for pagans and anti-christians maybe. And yes, it will be preceeded by great unrest, possibly due to natural disasters. In that, the Mayan “predictions” are right. But that is about it.
The Mayans like the Hindus and many others are obviously wrong to believe that worlds are created, destroyed, recreated and so forth by some pagan god with the end and beginning of each new cycle. They are wrong about that because there is only one God and He has flooded this earth once but He never destroyed it to recreate it. The “new” world after the Flood was basically the same old earth as it was before the Flood. And God vowed He would never again destroy the earth and its inhabitants like that. When He eventually destroys this world at judgment day this earth will vanish and be gone for good, and the new world will be nothing like the planet we live on today. It will be ever-lasting and not be subject to cycles of good or evil or influenced by the sun, moon or star constellations.
Anyway, just my thoughts on this issue.
God bless.
Thanks for your information on the Mayans. I agree with what you said. The Mayans had advanced knowledge and it probably came from fallen angels. So with that knowledge they may have calculated when the zodiac ages would end. Of course that is conjecture. I also agree that the so called Mayan prophecies are really only a calender indicating the end of this present age.
Having said that, God determines the end of the age of grace for the Gentiles not the Zodiac. The authors that use the Mayan age use it as a support tool to set dates for UFO theories and New Age theories. If the Mayan calender were not available they would look for and find something else to hang dates on, as date setters did many times before.
So we have all these books with theories all converging on 2012 because these authors tend to feed off each other even though the only main thing they have in common with each other is the knowledge that the Mayan calender ends in 2012. I guess we might expect the world to get into these things but what has this got to do with Christianity and the end times?
God will determine the end times for the world. He also said the Angels do not know the time of the end. That also means the fallen angels do not know. Therefore, if fallen angels influenced the Mayan’s they still had no knowledge about the timing of end time events.
I guess we should expect the world to look for messages about the future in this as they do with astrology but selling these theories to Christians as if those authors teaching these extra biblical theories are teaching Bible prophecy is beyond the pale.
So where will this 2012 date setting lead too? Probably Deception. The tribulation is not going to start or end in the year 2012 and all those who bought into it will be open to deception. There will very likely to be a economic melt down during this period so many people may feel as if they are going through the biblical tribulation when really they are in pre tribulation events on earth that set the conditions for the Beast Antichrist’s rise to power.
I see the great possibility that post toasties will actually fight to help bring in the Beast Antichrist thinking they already went through the tribulation in the depression. They will be ready for a “Christian” Savior that will bring them into the utopia but it will be the kingdom of the Beast that they support. In other words they substituted a false tribulation caused by man and did not realize that God’s end time judgments have not yet even begun.
The only reliable time clock we have for the Lord’s return is the prophecies of the Bible and how current world events fit the fulfillment’s written. I have many current event observations in my series on world trends and Bible prophecy and they all correlate to indicate that the tribulation is still twenty or so years in the future – not three.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/reasons/reason%20why%20we%20are%20in%20the%20last%20days.htm
Don,
Thank you for working to keep this discussion on topic. And I appreciate your skepticism, to a degree at least. Lots of people have picked bad dates – why follow suit?
As for some of your positions, I would have to object. YHVH is a math major; He runs the universe like clockwork. He crafted the planets and stars as His timepieces.
I tend to derive my end times view from a few sources (given that scripture is recognized as the first source of knowledge):
1. Mark Biltz from http://www.elshaddaiministries.us/ makes extraordinary planetary connections; making a case for 2015 (making the 7 year Trib start last fall). Watch his 5 DVD series on “the Feasts of the Lord”, the “you cannot know the day or the hour” sentiment of yours must be reconsidered. You cannot say “Merry Christmas” and expect to be a good student of prophecy. Last Yom Teruah, the Dow dropped 777.7 points on a 700 billion dollar bailout. Can you say, “Happy new year”?!?!?!
2. A movie entitled “Daniel’s Timeline” DVD (about 2 hours – easy to Youtube) coincides well with most of Biltz’s material, although they are anticipating a 2016 return (on Yom Teruah as well). They do some outstanding work on numerology (biblical) and make historical links (Israel prophecy fulfilled) to support their date. I have not yet reconciled the 360 vs 365 day year problem in my mind to pick a favorite between 2015 and 2016. It would seem that it is hard to discern when the 360 vs 365 year should be used. (I’d love to hear David’s take on this.)
3. The Mars/Earth Conflicts (based on Velikovsky’s work). Add Planet X or Niburu or Wormwood to the mix and now some of the unknowns may just balance out and complete planetary equations.
4. Chuck Missler, Alien Encounters and Return of the Nephilim. “As it was in the days of Noah” is not conjecture; Missler is understating for fear of backlash. I think you are missing out on the book of Enoch and modern Mixed seed and all of the citations of it within scripture. I also think it helps us understand the preflood world and Jurassic park and modern day fulfillment (in part) by GMO’s (which is only the beginning).
To me, it would appear that David Flynn’s 2012 or 2013 “somethin’s up” dates coincide quite well with items 1 and 2 above. I think items 3 and 4 are combined to fulfill Revelation prophecy in the 2012 or 2013 timeframe. Again, the 1260 number is compatible with this idea – 1260 seems to point toward the imperfect just as Solomon is (I believe) a picture of the antichrist, fooling many. 666 talents? Did Solomon not dabble in pagan religions, and did he not assume a sort of priestly (Levitical) role in the temple? Surely, he should have had one of Aaron’s sons officiate in his stead.
Is fallen, is fallen, mystery Babylon is fallen! In that, David really hits the nail on the head!
Shalom,
-Andy
David,
I really enjoyed your work; I read it 1 and 1/2 times. My standing complaint (aside the mid-tribulation antichrist/Px/Nephilim connections) is the math on the Exodus. 1441000 and 480 did not seem to add up.
In researching the 1441 topic, I learned that 12600 breaths are typical for a person in a day. Clearly the “6” number of man is seen resounding again and again.
I also learned that 1440 is the number of minutes in a 24 hour day. Think of that! 1 “day” (of year/minutes) between Israel’s Exodus (physical) and the latter spiritual Exodus!
Now, consider leap year. 1440 (min / day) x 1/4 (day/year) = 360 min per year. It would add 1 minute to each day. 1440 + 1 = 1441; thereby perfecting the math.
One other pointer I have is that you need to work on your use of units and unit cancellation a little more in your book’s revision.
Also, it would be REALLY interesting to see how those various dates work out on the Biblical calendar. I think that in so doing you’d come up with a lot more interesting and thematic connections. You really did stun me in establishing supernatural influence over man’s history via the Gregorian. It would be equally interesting to see how these items line up in Bible or Torah codes. I know there are doubters here on that topic, but the Genesis 1 “tress” clustering and the Isaiah 53 -eleven- disciples clustering (and the 50 famous rabbi’s experiment) really do put the technology on a platform of legitimacy, at least in my eyes.
Shalom,
-Andy
YHVW knows all math that does not mean that He would give messages in math so someone can pick a date that He already said no one will know.
The Tribulation obviously did not start last fall.
I say Merry Christmas because it is the date when Jesus came into the world, it was the date when Jesus was conceived in Mary’s womb. You make assumptions that simply are not true.
Who cares if the Dow dropped 777.7 points on Yom Teruah and there was also a $700 billion bailout? If you know statistics you would know that sooner or latter correlations have to happen. If you only are looking for correlations you will find them and come to wrong conclusions. That has been my argument about the time distance theory. My suggestion to you is not to take your theories to Las Vegas.
I read Valikovsky’s works, Mars/Earth orbits of today have nothing to do with what he said it was then.
I also heard Missler’s stuff. I do not in general disagree with what Missler says although he has got some of his conjecture wrong in the past. I also know Missler does not get into setting dates.
I have read the book of Enoch and know about the citations of it within scripture. Most of the book of Enoch that we have today is nonsense.
I think you are totally wrong about your date speculations and frankly your math suggestions here are just plain wacky. Also, the list of sources you give does not impress.
You might spend your time on Christian education rather than wasting it looking at tea leaves.
Do you lack courage to be corrected or the decency to apologize?
The only reason I am commenting to you on what you just said is to inform you. If you read the comment policy (it is on the top of the sidebar) you will know why your last comment was not posted.
Actually if you read the many comments I made on this post you will know what I think of date setting theories like yours. Your last post was also so long it way truncated by the software.
The bottom line is that If you think a comment section on a topical blog post is the place to argue many different speculative theories and attack the web host you are wrong.
David Flynn wrote:
“Counting 1,260 days backwards from 12/21/2012 one arrives at the date july 10th 2009. This fits within the 1,980 year countdown from 30 AD, as well 2012 fits the 1,980 years from 33AD.”
Hi David!
Would you please remind me: what was suppose to happen last month on 10 July 2009?
Thanks in advance for the clarification, David!
John
Hi John,
I think that was the date when “O” first broke 100 on the white house bowling alley
I cannot speak for David but me thinks a lot of crow is going to be eaten in the next few years by all the 2012-2013 date setters.
Hi Don!
Yes, unfortunately I hope its more a matter of people being drawn closer to God through more serious Bible study rather than having to eat crow. In the words of Mike Heiser:
“I (and, I believe, God) would rather have someone devote themselves to Bible study and fail from time to time (or even a lot) than have his children be more interested in who wins Survivor or their plunging stock portfolio.”
With that I agree!
I read David Flynn’s book and enjoyed it. i think as he has said that he is just showing another point of view dealing with numbers and Newton. The Bible does use certain numbers and they do connect to certain meanings. David Flynn and Michael Heiser are both great and Know thier subject even though they are different. we need more like them.
God has given us a lot in the Bible if people would do the research.
Statisticly speaking, Given enough data points you can always find significant anomalies. Pick any date you want and I can find a place that far from the temple mount. What does that prove?
That’s what I have been saying they play a similar game with the Bible codes.
Like God is sitting in heaven waiting on man to develop a computer and a program so God can disclose His hidden messages and our future through his high tech prophets – A.K.A. neo-Gnostics.
After reading (not always thoroughly) through the comments re this article I can only say, Don I take my hat off to you. Your frustration was sometimes evident but clarity regards the essentials of God’s word allowed/allows you to see the futility and utter waste of time in such speculations.
We are now midway through 2014 and what really has changed? O I know, We are six years closer to the Lord’s return.