There is no political solution to America’s problem because it is a sin problem. Americans are choosing evil. A nation would not go down the path that America is going down if moral people were in control. In a democratic republic evil leaders can only rule if the majority of voters want them in office. There is evil taking place all over this land because the majority of people in America are either partaking in those evils, tolerating those evils, accommodating those evils, or they are doing nothing about those evils that prevail.
Some have said that the only way to turn America around is to convert unbelievers to Christianity. However, converting people to the American version of Christendumb is not going to bring change in America because Christendumb enables these evils and it’s part of the problem.
Sure, there would be a real change if the majority in America were actually converted to true Christianity, but since most Christian leaders in America promote Christendumb, the true Christian message of salvation will not even be heard in most churches.
Contrary to the thinking of some, a nation cannot be converted to Christianity anyway. There are wheat and tares in all nations and tares planted by the Devil cannot be converted. The Devil has obviously planted a whole lot of tares on the American coasts and in some cities of America. The evil political leaders of this country would not be in place if the majority of Americans opposed them. However, American Christiandumb has done nothing to stop evil and has even enabled the sons of the Devil to take control in many ways.
Converting people to Christ will make better nations but nations as a whole cannot be converted to Christ in this age. Some nations still have very limited knowledge of Christ at all. So, obviously God still deals with Gentile nations through universal or natural law during this age. A nation can repent of its evils and the path that a nation chooses can be altered even apart from people converting to Christ.
The people of Nineveh through Jonah understood that breaking natural moral laws (like they were quite aware that they were doing) was about to bring swift destruction on their head and they repented and made some effort to change their ways.
Ever since Adam and Eve ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, humans have had the capacity to know the difference. That is why God told Cain to choose to do what is right, because if humans choose evil, sin will possess them and overcome them. The reason for all the evil we see in the world today is because people are choosing to do evil rather than doing good. Humans are without excuse, they naturally know what is evil. There are certain things that the Lord requires of all people and nations to receive his blessings on earth no matter if they are aware that YHWH gives eternal salvation or not.
Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
I think if people and nations try to do this with the understanding that they have, they will receive natural blessings in this world. This universal law of choosing what is just or good is why some nations that do not have any knowledge of God’s Christ still prosper.
Yes, history tells us that nations and people without any relationship with the true God of the Bible can prosper, while those that claim to know God but kill their young, oppress the innocent, embrace unnatural evils and act like brute beasts receive swift judgment from God. There are natural universal laws that fall on all mortal beings and nations alike without favor. If anyone thinks otherwise, foolishly burn your crop field and see if your Christianity gets you a bounty from God at time of harvest, or go jump off a cliff and see if your Christian salvation keeps your natural body alive.
Therefore, the best we can hope for in America, is that Americans will somehow hear from God and change directions. Americans must stop choosing evil and must choose to do what is just and right. People doing evil generally know it and they can stop doing evil unless they love their sins more than doing what is right. If people or nations chose to do evil they will reap the natural consequences. The battle for America’s survival hinges around Americans doing what is right. It is not about making America into a Christian nation. There is no such thing as a Christian nation on earth in this age.
Nations of the world are judged on natural morality not on the spiritual rebirth of chosen people within that nation. The redeemed of the Lord of this age are an elect assembly of people who by God’s grace and our acceptance of His Christ are called out through the Spirit to occupy and be salt and light to the world until the Lord returns. The faithful are given the promise of ruling and reigning on earth with the Lord during the Kingdom age.
Most that receive salvation of their souls in eternity will never be part of the elect Bride of Christ. One place many in the Christian Church have it wrong, is in thinking that all people will either go to Heaven or Hell. There will be a New Earth where most people will dwell. Heaven is where God is. During the eternal age to come we are told that God and the Lamb will dwell in the Holy City. Not all will attain the privilege of dwelling in the Holy City with God and His Son.
In any great kingdom not all are married to the King nor are all blood relatives. Humankind that are not married to the King or blood relatives of the King or members of the King’s court, in the eternal age either dwell on the New Earth or they are in the Lake of Fire. Apart from the Bride of Christ being taken to be with the Lord, there is still wheat and tares that will be harvested by angels at the end of the age.
For evil to flourish in any nation, all that is required under natural law is that good men do nothing to resist it. This has always been the natural cycle on earth and this conflict between good and evil will remain until the end of the age. The wisest man ever created told us about these natural cycles when he said:
1 To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven:
2 A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted;
3 A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up;
4 A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance;
5 A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing;
6 A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away;
7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;
8 A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace.
Solomon tells us in this passage there are good times and bad times on earth. Evil choices in this nation will soon bring upon America the bad times that Solomon mentioned, unless moral men do something causing a change of direction.
Therefore, the question is not how we convert this nation. We cannot. America has become a lot like Nineveh and American Christian preachers that are supposed to be preaching the word of God to America have become a lot like Jonah. The next event for them is the storm.
The Jonah’s can and must warn the nation but who in the Church will even speak the truth from God’s word to America? Most preachers “representing God” to America now occupy cabins on the USS Jakesosteenbell that is being purpose driven toward Tarshish by the American mega blowhards of Christiandumb.
I suppose that God will deal with those leaders of Christiandumb that are traveling to Tarshish to acquire all kinds of worldly riches for themselves. They will be thrown overboard during the coming storm. America might even come to repent through the preaching of some of these latter-day Jonah’s, but it is not likely to happen until some great personal tribulation convinces them to actually speak God’s word to America.
Hello Don,
Very enjoyable, and true post. Interestingly enough, I had a conversation with a friend of mine who is a Pastor here in Town. I have seen over and over in the churches here locally the movement to the feel good “osteen” messages of just love everyone… No talk about the consequences of sin.. That would be harsh, and might offend some potential tithers… Can’t have that…
In reference to your comment in the post about only the elect dwelling with God, is there a previous post you have done that can give me more information on that? I would enjoy reading it. I will try the search engine as well.
Thanks for the powerful message.
Rod in Oregon
Thanks Rod,
The only people that can dwell with God are those predestined to do so. These are the elect. But I do not write much on this issue because once you do, you get into what came first the chicken or egg debate. We cannot understand this Sovereignty verses Free will of man issue because we are limited to what we can observe and understand with our puny minds. God is not. Both are true but I cannot tell you how that can be.
Hi Don,
Very complex to understand. 🙂
I am interested also in your opinion of when the shift from Biblically based preaching to feel good topical messages that avoid “offending” anyone actually began. I am thinking the shift began in the 80s.
Rod 🙂
This definitely sums it up.
Ro 10:14 How then shall they call upon Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher?(NASB)
2Ti 2:2 And the things which you have heard from me in the presence of many witnesses, these entrust to faithful men, who will be able to teach others also.(NASB)
Unless there are those who are willing to stand up for the Bible and educate men to be spiritual leaders in the church and in their home the cycle will continue it downward spirl. US, Canada, doesn’t matter where and even if this is a fact of the sign of the times it does not lessen our accountablitiy before God.
We need to challenge our Pastors and Leaders to get back to making disciples and equiping the saints. No more Sunday moring Milk Buffets. I believe we need more teaching and less preaching in the Body of Christ.
don please tell me what kind of bible to buy im tiered of sinning and i want change my life by reading a real bible
Jason,
Pick one with all 66 books and no missing pages 😉 And when you find a Bible that can enable me to not sin anymore by reading it… Let me know…
Rod in Oregon 🙂
“God still deals with Gentile nations through universal or natural law during this age.”
This is so very true. I wrote the following just the other day as part of another attempt to clarify my thoughts, on that age old argument of free will and Election (I am not going to go there): –
“Part of God’s great act of bringing the material universe into existence was the establishment of laws to govern his creation; material law to govern the material universe and moral law to govern his moral creatures, i.e. men and angels.
Mankind is both a physical and moral creation therefore subject to God’s physical and moral law.
If God designed and activated the laws that govern his creation it stands to reason he also designed and activated the effects of disobedience to those laws. If men adhere to God’s physical and moral law they will be blessed to the maximum; if they rebel against those laws they will suffer accordingly.”
God does not harden the hearts of men capriciously, but by means of the outworking of moral law. We need only to be born of the flesh to be candidates for material blessing or cursing. But a relationship with God is something else; it requires a new, a second birth by faith in the spiritual reality of redemption and reconciliation through Christ.
I found that this little booklet (60pgs) enabled me to understand the questions I had about God and evil; sin and free-will.
“God and Evil”. The Problem Solved. by Gordon H. Clark. The Trinity Foundation. 1961. http://www.trinityfoundation.org
Rod,
I think the PC teaching began with postmodernism so I would say the 80’s would be correct for when it entered the evangelical churches. Even so, liberalism and high criticism taught in mainline seminars and secular universities set the stage for postmodernism and that began long before the 80’s.
Jason, I agree with Rod.
Jason,
I agree also with Rod and I want to encourage you in your desire to live in obecdience to God’s word. Many people use the NIV as it is easier to read and memorize.
Not to be off topic, but just wanting to take a moment to speak to your desire to live a Holy life. We all struggle with sin and I believe many who are here desire to deepen there relationship with God. So just some suggestions to consider.
1. God is always there so reach out to Him continually. 1Thess 5:17 pray without ceasing;(NASB)
2. Attend a Bible Centered church if you are not already.
3. Find a Bible Study group or men’s prayer or accoutability group even if it is just 1 person. Gotta start somewere. 🙂 James 5:16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, so that you may be healed. The effective prayer of a righteous man can accomplish much.(NASB)
4. If there are deep struggles that you have is your pastor able to counsel or recommend a counsellor?
In our church many have been going through Celebrate Recovery and you do not have to be struggling with an addiction to work through this series of books. We all have areas in our lives that we struggle with that keep us from connecting with God and in relationships.
Php 1:6 [For I am] confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.(NASB)
😀
David Little,
I do not think you should take Jason seriously it seems to me that he is posting here to start on his own KJ version only agenda. I do not recommend the NIV it is not one of the best translations available. I also do not not recommend “Celebrate Recovery” for reasons given in my article.
http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/The%20woman%20on%20the%20beast%20in%20end%20time%20prophecy%20has%20dominion%20theology.htm
Don,
Well I have extended the ‘benefit of the doubt’ toward him and the proof will be in where he takes it from here. I myself prefer the NASB.
I want to draw this back in to your topic as you brought up the definite need for Christian Leaders to come back to the hearing and following the Voice of God – Scripture. As I see the world being afflicted by the increasing of birth pains I find myself watching the news and seeing the aftermath of the recent tornadoes am I amiss to think of this as the Natural Law consequences to our overall rejection of God? (Of course my prayers go out to all those afflicted, especially that they would consider their spiritual state.)
I found your article interesting as I do recognize the potential dangers that lie within. I’m just weighing out if something like Celebrate Recovery has value as a tool under scripture or not. I have not reviewed the whole material, but I do know people who have benefited greatly from dealing with issues and putting their life under submission to Christ and the Bible.
As well we as a church have used the SHAPE material and I have taught it. Our purpose; to begin the equipping process and to bring awareness of how God has equipped everyone of us for ministry. Now personally I veiw these things as pre-100 level courses and by no means a final product. If you are suggesting that such tools / resources are not wholly valueable I am interested to hearing what resources you do advocate?
As having been an Elder in the past and a teacher of both Highschool and Adult classes I do consider myself doubly accountable. I for one do not want to be found getting tossed overboard because I’m not following God’s leading. :S. At the same time I don’t want to be just a critical ‘voice of the high standard’ that makes everyone feel like there is no point in trying.
So how is it that we reach these people who are in our churches and who come to our churches? I read your “worthy church model” article http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/A%20worthy%20model%20for%20Christian%20growth%20not%20just%20church%20growth.htm and I see our church as having begun this same journey. For Eg. we have purposely put in place policies to follow the Biblical model for training, approving and electing Elders in the church. Before they just took it forgranted that the men elected even wanted to be an elder. I totally agree with out strong spiritual leadership we will be unable to hold our heading as a church. Our Pastor like this Pastor Dave is a very wise and experienced counsellor and preacher. We also have two committed associate Pastors. FYI, our church falls under the umbrella of the http://www.agcofcanada.com/. We have a congregation of about 250.
Like these Pastors I am very concerned about building a Biblically wise and literate congregation. I am very concerned about equipping people to reach the lost and the challenges seems enormous when one considers the shortness of time as per your previous post. We have taken on some good direction in our Life Groups which are focused on discuss the previous Sundays sermon. Plus the Faith@Home focus we have taken one with our newest Assoc Pastor.
I agree with this model in that more focus must be put on equiping and giving opportunities for people to use their gifts. It is not to just run a blah blah SHAPE Sunday School series but then have nothing deeper or practical applied. I believe that we (churches overall) put too much time, energy and $$ on Milk. I am not for seeker sensitive but I do want to be compassionate as many are in need of healing. Many have fallen prey to just being the victim and have not let Christ restore them as a new creation.
My desire via these forums of dicussion is to be made more aware of the challenges we face and to be better equipped to deal with them. To become stronger spiritually and biblically. To gain fellowship with believers who can challenge me even if we don’t agree 100% on everything. Why? Because like many of you I see these birth pains growing and many are going to start asking why and they will be looking for answers. As well I fear for many in the church who’s weak faith will face the breaking point and I want to reach these people. I pray for a strong church that will be able to minister to those within and with out. This is not an easy task. This will not come about without taking some strong stands for the Church Leadership. I want to be a voice of a wisdom that comes from God and not from my own puffed up opinion. In this light I appreciated your aritcle as we must be wise and discerning of all things from within and from without. http://www.thepropheticyears.com/comments/We%20Have%20Met%20the%20Enemy%20and%20They%20Are%20US%20Evangelical%20Christians.htm
I indeed do not seek to tear the body of christ apart but rather to model and proclaim Isaiah:58 as a hope for us, we the church of Laodicea.
I respect and appreciate your blog Don and I hope that prove to be valuable contributor and gain not only constructive thought but supportive direction from all fellow participants.
God Bless.
David Little,
I am kind of curious why your church needs to jump on the latest pop fads rather than focus on solid Bible teaching and what it teaches as the solution for sin, and why your church does not find what our focus should be from the Bible rather than buying prepackaged magic from the very men and churches that have created Western Christendumb?
In that link above, I also talk about the SHAPE temperament profiling program promoted by Rick Warren, Saddleback and all that buy into similar personality profiling. This stuff has occult roots and the profiling is subjective and has even been rejected by secular professionals. It puts people in small boxes.I do not know why churches find merit in this debunked pop psychology nonsense.
Then some use this occult based temperament profiling nonsense to suggest to Christians what their spiritual gifts are??? This is a prime example of the Christendumb that I am talking about in this article, and Celebrate Recovery and many other such self help programs or discovering your spiritual self programs also qualify.
With a decade or so left to do our work on earth the last thing churches need is more self centered programs or copying the ways of the megadumbs.
I recently rejected joining a Church because they said stupid things like we will try anything once and we are bit postmodern. I do not want to be in a church that thinks being a church is something you try.
Don, and others 🙂
The problem, as I see it, with so many of the latest “program fads” is that they claim to point you to growth in God, but almost always end up with a “self-ward” focus, instead of on Jesus. There are several churches here locally, to give an example, that got on the “laugh your way to a better marriage” garbage. I watched it from a professional point of view, and found it to be absolutely ridiculous, a waste of time, a program that puts people into stereotypical little boxes, and the guy who did it was exceptionally irritating.
Churches have gone from the Word of God and the Holy Spirit doing the talking, to the latest program, video, or self help book. Psychology can ba a valuable science for healing, but also a dangerous tool for the promotion of the individual and other dangerous beliefs.
As for Rick W. “Shape” acrostic… While at first glance it looks like a way of living in the “spirit”… It is not. It is a form of pop psychology that again, seeks the promotion of “me, me, me”…
As for Bible translations… I have neard the NKJV is very Accurate, as is the American Standard. That is an intersting discussion thread for a different post I think. 🙂
Rod in Oregon
And I thought I was critical of today’s church. Honestly I had never thought of them as pop fads and our Church does take Biblical authority and teaching very seriously. Our leadership has not just simply copied something from some from suposed success story. Many things we have done have been through much prayer and God’s leading. I was raised that the Bible is the only authority and everything must align to it. Is that missing in my writtings? Then I’m sorry for being unclear. I am not outrightly dismissing your concerns regarding such material. I’m not sure if I’m hearing from you that there is no relevant teaching material or resources out there for Churches to use? Am I to take your reply as that there is nothing of God in the direction our Church is trying to go? I feel like you made some quick assumptions / judgements here. To put biblical practices of Faith back in the home. To put the accountability back on the parental roles. That men need to be the spiritual leader of the home. To train and equip men to be Elders. To raise the standard of bibical teaching. Even though we do use material I often teach beyond the lesson and using the bible directly to challenge people about our visible apathy toward our Faith and the Bible. I feel like you simply tossed me and this Body of Christ aside into this “Christendumb” circle. No we are not doing everything right, but by God’s grace and the power of the Holy Spirit we are working at it despite opposition. If your model church example took 20 years to get to that point then it is understood that unfortunately it does take time.
I do agree that alot of the prepackage Sunday School stuff has little value beyond Gr 6.
I do not agree that churches should try anything once. Save that view for a culinary experience.
I think that you are over emphasising our use of something like SHAPE in our church. Profiling does not help determine one’s spiritual gift. To me it is nothing more than getting a little introspection into who I am as God created me. We all have personalities and natural abilities just like we all have spiritual gifts and knowing this doesn’t profile me or put me in a small box. Maybe that is just a perspective.
You have brought up very challenging points, but as you throw out many CONS I am hoping you can provide some PROS to the main critisms you have. How would you help a church to move in the right direction? Just to say what is wrong is not enough. I am here not only to be challenged but to recieve direction.
What Biblical curriculum does a model Church use?
How do you determine your spiritual gift(s) or how would you assist someone to determine theirs??
How do you propose dealing with people who have deep issues?
Thanks
Hello David,
I think the problem is that most churches have made the Bible the secondary source for teaching and truth… Many pastors now get their Sunday messages from pastors.com, so they are not even needing to spend time in prayer and study of the word or seeking the Holy Spirit for their weekly message. What they do with their time, I do not know. The old days of pastors calling on the sick, homebound, hospitalized are long gone. Messages are mostly topical, and usually something designed to make the congregation feel warm, fuzzy, emotional, and willing to put their weekly check in the plate.
I have not heard the reality of hell for unbelief preached since the 80’s. The messages in churches today are filled with all sorts of flashy video clips, funny jokes, feel good principles, oh, and maybe a couple Bible verses thrown out for good measure…
The problem is that these programs are allowing people to seek answers in places other than the Bible. While they might have been a useful tool as a secondary source, they have become a primary source.
A church that wants to move in the right direction? I would say.. and it’s just my opinion, I am certainly not an expert in the field of church growth… Would be to get back to teaching the word of God.. Make the Bible the primary source. Stop allowing sin to go unchecked within your churches for fear of losing members. Allow the Holy Spirit to do the leading… Not the latest “program”. 🙂 Just my opinion…. And great questions!
Rod in Oregon
David Little,
I only have a minute and I have to leave. Let me just say that your the one that brought up Celibate Recovery and your SHAPE program. You can read what discerning Christians say about those programs or you can reject their points. However, I know which point of view is based on the Bible rather than of men..some of which were in the occult when they came up with stuff.
I am not saying that all church programs are bad but leaders better find a little discernment before they just buy into everything. If they lack discernment I can suggest some site like Dave Hunt’s “Berean Call” that has plenty to spare and talks about these issues.
I also am not judging your church the only thing I know about your church is what you tell me. Have to run..
Well Rod that is what we are doing. Our Pastors all spend a lot of time in prayer, seeking the spirits leading and working on sermons that address all these issues of Biblical illiteracy, sin, apathy, playing church, repentance, etc. There is little warm and fuzzy in our sermon context. Still it is a process to challenge people’s thinking. We have even dropped programs and how Youth is done because we wanted more Bible focus and less just having fun events. If you have ever been apart of a church’s spiritual renovation you know you just can’t do it with only Sledghammers and chainsaws.
Also here home/ hospital etc visitation still happens, but in part I must say the reason this has gone by the way side is because these Old day pastors never truly saw that making disciples like them was part of their mandate. They were the solo spiritual leader and they didn’t follow Paul’s advice to Timothy and pass on what they have learned. Now we have Elders who don’t have discernemt, they feel no confidence to even lead communion, they shrink back from engaging in confrontation. This has begun to change but this is the consequence of these old day pastors failing to truly grasp what equiping meant. (from my experience and all the churches I have been invovled in) Now our biggest issue is not how to preach hell to the unsaved but how to preach against the post mordern Pharisee who’s self-entitled righteousness stands in the way of God’s work in the church. Praise God this is begining to break and our Pastor’s have never been busier working with people who are starting to be challenged, convicted, repenting, becoming free and being disciplined for their obstinant resistance to the Holy Spirit.
I am here looking for strength and direction as this is tiring work. In the past I have challenged programs once it was discovered what it was based on and I don’t shrink from that. There are times one can feel at the top of it all like Elijah and then next you are in a pit with Jeremiah weeping. Don you obviously have had alot of time put into this. I’m a bit younger and not quite there yet. I wish I had the time to fully write out everything we are trying to do, but that seems like a book you may not have time to read.. lol So I guess it’ll just have to come in bits and pieces. Honestly we have just begun to know each other and text has sad short comings in that one can’t tell the emotions or facial expressions. I try to read neutral and type neutral and I have been guilty of misinterpreting as well. I appreciate your input it just felt a little stinging and I’m sorry if I read into that. I’m sure like myself I get frustrated by those who keep testing the definition of insanity. 😀
Yes I did bring those up and was unaware of the history that you state. Our Pastor did rewrite SHAPE so I don’t know it’s orignial source nor it’s history, perhaps he did. Thought it was something he came up with. Perhaps that is why he wrote up his own. Sometimes a tool is just a tool and it is the user that makes it Godly or Ungodly. That said I agree that often we take some of this stuff too much at face value but our purpose and direction is indeed to be Bibically based. If more research and discernment are warrented then I accept the counsel.
All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
Believe me I do desire to profit greatly and to share it with as many who will listen.
thanks
Hi Don.
Don you said in your commentary…
(A) “…God told Cain to choose to do what is right, because if humans choose evil, sin will possess them and overcome them. The reason for all the evil we see in the world today is because people are choosing to do evil rather than doing good”
Don in this quote (A) you appear to be saying that man has the freewill ability to choose God and God’s ways… apart from being Chosen BY God. Is that how you see it… or is there a partnership between God and Man in this confluence? How does Irresistible Grace play any part in this … yet that (irresistibility) by definition negates any Freewill on mans part..does it not? Also… Does your quote above refute total depravity? …As Cain could have chosen to do Good – as God admonishes to do “choose” – to do well.
(B) “ The redeemed of the Lord of this age are an elect assembly of people who by God’s grace and our acceptance of His Christ are called out through the Spirit to occupy and be salt and light to the world until the Lord returns. The faithful are given the promise of ruling and reigning on earth with the Lord during the Kingdom age.”
(C) “Most that receive salvation of their souls in eternity will never be part of the elect Bride of Christ.”
(D) “ Not all will attain the privilege of dwelling in the Holy City with God and His Son”
Don, these last three quotes (B, C, D) from your post appear to be a doctrine that I have not heard of or am familiar with. By “this age” (in quote B) do you refer to this present period in time that we are living in now?
In quote (C & D) you seem to suggest a different echelon or class of elect – separate from the elect in quote (B).
Also in quote (D) you use the word “attain” …is that imply certain deeds… such as martyrdom by those special elect of Christ. I feel pressed to ask… But is that works of some sort to attain higher level s in God’s Kingdom?
Al
Hi David,
Well, I think to a point that is part of the problem. There is a tendency for people to not do enough research before proceeding. They start a program or curriculum, and then, after doing more research, find that it was not what they were thinking it was. Those are painful lessons that could be avoided most of the time. 🙂 Im not referring to your situation, as I know nothing about it other than what you wrote. But I live in a city that has more churches per capita that any other city in the country. And the percentage of people going to church is around 15%… And over the last 20 years, as the population has grown, the percentage of church goers has remained the same. The churches here are just rotating members around, for the most part. It’s really pretty sad.
🙂 Great conversation.. Thanks.
Rod
Don,
I do agree with this excellent article, however, I believe that the majority of humanity, at least in these United States, have become so jaded and dependent on man’s “immoral code” that he/she doesn’t see a reason to abide by a Biblical Moral/Ethics Code that they believe is outdated and doesn’t apply any longer…along with a belief that says The Bible was developed by man only to keep humanity from anarchy in the first place.
We see in the news daily how the snowball effect of our courts ruling in favor of atheists, the separation of church and state nonsense, nativity scenes that have to be taken out of public viewing during Christmas (Happy Holiday) by court intervention, loss of even private prayer in schools, etc.
So, with this ideology, what is right and wrong ?…there is NONE…except what each man or women decides is best for themselves…so in another words, we have the very thing that the liberal peace-nicks are supposedly fighting against…ANARCHY !
So, humanity is ruling and depending on man’s rule, as I see it…with no regard for the ONLY True Moral Code which is God’s Word.
“You take God out of society, you get anarchy”…Rush Limbaugh
One more thing…
All these things these pastors/churches are doing or not doing with their programs that I’ve read in these comments…it makes my head spin.
Maybe I’m just a simpleton but I look for a pastor whom I trust that can teach me Genesis-Revelation…that’s it, I’m not looking for a men’s retreat, counsel, or party…I just want to learn God’s Word.
David little,
From what you said your church seems to want to do what they believe is biblical and right and if they seek God through His word I am sure they will find proper direction.
In this article when I talk about Christendumb I am partly talking about the churches that just play “Simon says”. They do something because they see it works to bring in people without really researching the program themselves. Most often they do not know the roots from where certain programs originated and they do not know if what is being said in those programs can really be supported by scripture if proper hermeneutics is used.
Like Rod implies as well, many pastors just will not do their homework anymore. They hardly know anything about the programs someone talked them into, or that lay leaders are offering on the side. They just buy into what others leaders say works, rather than comparing the program against what scripture really teaches.
Sure, I have been around for a long time and I have seen many things. That helps, but it is not all important. With the Internet it is easier then ever to get views on all sides of almost anything worthwhile. What a leader needs to do is know scripture and from it determine where the real truth lies.
When teachers use scripture to support their views, do they use scripture in context or do they make the scripture fit the program that they already bought into? If they can find nothing in a good Bible version do they then search paraphrases until they can find a verse to sell their program? Rick Warren is a perfect example of a pastor that does that.
Many mega pastors and postmoderns are also doing that and then they say the Bible supports it. No it does not. Not if your using proper hermeneutics but that does not seem to matter to them. They think results means that God is in it.
Many think whatever brings the results they are looking for has to be of God. That very often is not the case and it is part of the reason for the sorry state of our American Churches where everyone measures success in the numbers that show up on Sunday or the amount of people that get in a program.
It seems to me that many pastors will not even check out why some astute people have problems with many of these pop programs. Instead they will just do what the other churches are doing or blinding follow people like Warren or worse.
God be with you and your church in your efforts to do His will.
Al,
You seem to be repeating pretty much the same question on various posts. I Believe both sovereign election and free-will exist. I do not think it is a either-or-thing and I do not think we can explain it satisfactory. You always want to get me in a Calvinism verses Arminian argument I have better things to do with my time.
I have already told you that I think both views are correct in what they affirm. Scripture actually does support both positions. The problem is in what both groups deny. These also are written in scripture. It is a many century old argument and denominations are built on both sides and nobody is satisfied with the others answers. I am not going to solve one sided views they people get from cherry picking scriptures that support their own view and ignoring the scriptures that do not support their view.
Some like to try to bridge the two by implying that predestination is just God’s foreknowledge but that does not answer many of the scriptures that will be brought up and it will not fly in any real debate. I remember recently Dave Hunt and Dr. James White debated this topic verbally and in writing and after all was said and done nobody budged an inch. Frankly I can see three, maybe four, points of Calvinism as being true although Calvinists say you have to buy all five points or your not a Calvinist. So who care what they think?
As for Irresistible Grace, I think it applies to the fore chosen elect. Certain leaders of Israel and the prophets were called by God. They had no choice in the matter. I think the passage that might apply here is many are called but few are chosen. When James and John wanted to rule on Jesus’ right and left hand in the kingdom Jesus said it was not His to give. There were two chosen by Father God from before the foundations of the earth for this position. So there you see sovereign election. It is the same in the Church. The Apostles were all chosen. Paul had no real choice. There is sovereign election but it seems to be limited to a select group. The Bride also will be the leadership and nobody can be born into the Body unless they are called of the Spirit. However, many more will get saved outside of the Bride elect.
To answer your a b c d.
A. Cain obviously had the ability to do right or God would not have told him to choice to do what is right.
In B. C. D. There are ages on earth. This age ends at the millennial reign. The millennial reign is another age. There is also an eternal age. That is why the scripture talks about ages to come (Eph 2:7). So yes, when I am talking about this present age, I am talking about the age we are living in now.
Yes, I think the Bible does teach that there will be a saved people apart from those identified with the Bride or Body of Christ. Obviously once the Bride is married nobody can ever become part of the Bride. However, God is still going to save many people apart from the Bride. Obviously many living before Pentecost and in the millennial reign will be saved. The new earth is created for people to dwell in, they will not attain a residence in the Holy City and they will not be in the lake of Fire.
By saying this group will not attain what is predestined for only the Bride I am just saying that those that are not part of the bride will never attain what is promised to the Bride. The same as your children can inherit all promised to them but they can never receive what you promised to your wife nor can they become your wife.
I am sure more can be said but few will follow any of this anyway and certain people will disagree.
Don,
I’ve been following this thread with interest, resisting the urge to jump in until I had something worth offering. I agree with much if not all of what you say about election. Years ago I struggled with this Armenian/Calvinism debate. Both are extreme views and both miss the mark. The problem is, I think, with the term “Salvation” and how it’s used in the Bible. There are many different kinds of salvation, and saving your soul from hell-fire is only one of them. What cleared the confusion up for me was a very helpful book titled: *The Reign Of The Servant Kings* by Joseph C. Dillow. It is very heavy and slow reading, but well worth the effort.
I also agree that Dave Hunt’s *Berean Call* is an excellent resource!
Don.
I understand that none of us can FULLY comprehend God’s exceedingly great philosophy in this matter; Gods ways are– filled with absolute perfect intelligence and abundantly gracious and perfect love. Yet, God has given us so MUCH that we as brothers and Sisters in Christ can all easily understand and use to forge a strong fellowship of believers under Christ. It is extremely sad that this latter prospect is now the exception instead of the universal rule. For me I look for love & truth in all things (as I am taught to discern this… through scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit) …and at the heart of any matter are persons who bring about all matters of all kinds into this world, through their hearts desire and their minds resolution of doing either their own will or doing Gods Will. Should I find Godly LOVE at work in any matter and thus in those person(s) then I am exceedingly happy for I have found a brother or sister in Christ. Love is patient and kind and filled with great truths.
1 Corinthians 13: 1-13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, BUT HAVE NOT LOVE, I am a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal. And if I have prophetic powers, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, BUT HAVE NOT LOVE, I am nothing. If I give away all I have, and if I deliver up my body to be burned, BUT HAVE NOT LOVE, I gain nothing. Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known. So now faith, hope, and love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
Don, I love it when you are patient and answer kindly and with Godly truth to all. This is not weakness… This is Strength… this is Love… this is what the true sword of the Spirit is forged in.
Yes Don, I fully agree. Thanks so much for your response and this dialogue. We will keep on pressing on. It is funny actually as our Pastor was at the head office this week and they discussed the same caution of not letting the tool overtake the Word. God does indeed work to keep the unity within His will and He leads those who hear His voice. 😀
Al, Well I for one avoid the C vs A deal and agree that both apply. Just because even as a human in a finite period of time I can often anticiapte my kids doing or saying something howerver it doesn’t mean I made them do it. I just know my kids. 😉
I believe the Bible even speaks to how not all will be equal in the Kingdom of Heaven I Cor 3. God has established that He is no respecter of persons. If some can recieve a greater reward than others then I’m sure there those like the God’s choosen people, apostles, etc will recieve other rewards, positions etc.
God Bless and have a blessed Sunday worshiping our God!
Hi Don and Others,
This has become a fascinating discussion, but as you said in your post, people tend to “dig in” to such a strong position, that they wont budge an inch. Having gone to Seminary for my Graduate School training, I have seen divisions over some of these issues that became quite destructive.
And Doug, what do you mean “different kinds of salvation”?
Rod in Oregon 🙂
“Frankly I can see three, maybe four, points of Calvinism as being true although Calvinists say you have to buy all five points or your not a Calvinist. So who care what they think?”
I agree that most points of TULIP can be amicably debated however what Calvinists think in regards to the doctrine of election is a hateful view of God and I for one feel a compulsion to defend his nature against their claim to limited atonement. If Christ died only for the elect and the elect were elect from eternity past, then the non elect were born without hope.
To believe that God allows this is a distortion of divine love, a narrow view of divine justice, and a blatant denial of Scripture.
The doctrine of unlimited atonement must be upheld in defence of God’s character and his word.
I don’t agree with much of Calvin’s TULIP. The following is another scripture that for me makes pre-destination election and limited atonement a sham. Look at what Jesus is saying.
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing”
I believe God’s elect are those that freely accept God’s Grace… God’s call. God knows who his elect are from the foundation of the world. He is outside of time and knows those who accepted Him.
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if ANY man hears my voice, and opens the door, I will come in to him, and will eat with him, and he with me”
I do agree with Don that WITHIN the elect, God appoints – at His pleasure – certain individuals for Positions and Missions.
Can someone point me to any scripture that proves any of Calvin’s Tulip – apart from where the term “Elect”… and where the phrase “at His pleasure” are used. That Is not enough and certainly not clear…. show me where Saul Had no choice but to accept God. Where does it say anywhere in scripture that any of God children were unable to choose freely and were compelled to obey God?
Al,
Pre-destination and election cannot be denied for they are clearly stated, but limited atonement (a misnomer) can be denied for it refutes clear statements of Scripture.
How we reconcile free will and election is an issue that is not so easily ascertained.
Brian,
I think part of the problem is the view that there is only an Elect that people identify as the Church. They also put various meanings of what the Church is and just when this Church started.
Commonly Christians think anyone not in their definition of the Church or their definition of the Body of Christ or their definition of the Bride goes to Hell. Yet, God could have decided to create an elect people of faith that will rule and reign with Him before the foundations of the world. Just as the coming of Jesus to redeem man was decided before the foundations of the world and the two candlesticks that would be on the Lord’s right and Left were.
I think Jesus came to save all that come to believe that He is the Lord of creation and that will not oppose his Kingdom. He atoned for the sins of all, but that does not mean that all can become those chosen to be His elect, His Body, His Bride.
Jesus said He will not lose any that the Father gives Him. So there are an appointed elect people given to Jesus. That does not mean that the atonement for sin offered by Jesus cannot bring salvation to all, so limited atonement probably is an error and we see the proof of that in scripture because people get saved after the Marriage. In the Sheep and Goat judgment people are saved (at least in the flesh just on how they treated His brethren in the tribulation.) I think therefore, we also can assume that most if not all these people souls will also be saved or what would be the point of allowing them into the kingdom at all?
But the truth that Jesus paid the price for sin for all also does not mean that there are not those predestined to be in the chosen Elect that will rule and reign with Christ. This election does not come by anything we do it comes by God’s sovereign will. As I said, the answer might be in the passage “many are called but few are chosen”. The chosen are just that.
Anyway, this stuff gets pretty deep and I would not be dogmatic about any of it, and I do not see much merit in future posting of the A vs C arguments in the comment section of this post.
I have heard it all on this argument and nobody answers all the questions satisfactory (I think knowing all these things is impossible with our human intellect) and it really becomes a rabbit trail that never ends.
When the rubber meet the road it is God who will decide in His own creation who He will draw to His Son and who will be ruling with Him. After all, when God created the universe the Angels had no choice who would be ruling Angels. God obviously created these beings with a hierarchy and there is little reason to believe God changed His ways. Especially if the Elect were created to replace the fallen angels. There also is evidence in scripture that there will be a hierarchy in the age to come and the eternal age.
God did not create people for the Lake of Fire, this was created for the Devil and his angels. If anyone goes there it probably is because they are tares sown by the Devil and they chose to reject the Lord of Creation. These are those that will not have the Son of the vineyard owner to rule over them so they must be eternally separated from God or they would just create another rebellion.
Al,
Just for your information. I obviously wanted what I just posted to be the last word on the Calvinist subject but I really do not think you understand their arguments. It is easy to argue from one side of a theology when nobody is giving the other side. obviously Calvinists can find scriptures to support their view.
They would say all are spiritually dead in sin and unless Jesus raised you up before you believed you could not have even believed and been saved. In other words they would say that those alienated from God and dead in their sins cannot believe.
So they put regeneration before confession. I do not agree with that but that is the way they see it.
Calvinists believe in free will after conversion so they would say your claim of the saved not having any choice to obey after conversion is a straw man argument. They would say that once someone is risen to spiritual life they can’t help but know who it was that rose them to life and believe in His existence.
They would hit you with scriptures about hearts being hardened and Saul seeking repentance with all his heart but not being able to obtain it.
Don’t take this wrong but if you really want a education, Why don’t you take your arguments against Calvinism to a Calvinist BB forum. I am sure they would love to give you plenty to think about.
Don,
Yes it is deep stuff and I usually end up with a thick head, and close down my attempts to formulate a concise and meaningful expose feeling intellectually frustrated.
I do know that I believed in Christ, and that it was I who willingly accepted him, yet at the same time I also know that it was God who enlightened my spirit so that I was able to believe. If it was not for that I would still be unsaved.
So who gets the glory?
Not I.
Don, I have been getting an education on this subject. I do not need to go and argue with “hardened Hearts” on Calvinist Blogs to continue my education. Yet… in fact I have done just that …several times in the past. And as I previously mentioned I also went and sat down with a Pastor at a reformed church, and for over 2 hours discussed these very things.
I admit that I am not as edified in scriptures as you are, but I am increasing.
These two links have for me provided a good education. One clearly explains Calvin’s TULIP and the other is from a former Calvinist who articulately points out many of the same thoughts that I have about Calvinism. That I came to indecently I might add.
I suggest that you should at least check out the latter link. It is a quick read. But very informative. As I said before, I believe that it is the Calvinist’s that cherry pick and use passages out of context, building a new theology and shamelessly defining God’s nature through (as you say) a limited human understanding. I do no think I am doing that…like I said, I accept scripture at face value and in context of a particular circumstance and then within the greater context of the whole council of God. Some folks take specific scripture passages meant only for a certain circumstance and then apply that idea liberally through out the Bible. One should not have such hard and fast rules like that.
I really suggest you read that second link.
Hi Brain… check out that last link as well I found it to be a valuable and yet quick read. 20-25 minutes max.
Short excerpt.
“The main point at which I first questioned Calvinism was the nature of man in his sinful state. To question this point of the system is to question all of it. The last four points of Calvinism rest squarely upon the first, Total Inability. Once that dogma is removed, the entire superstructure crashes under its own weight”
http://www.prca.org/fivepoints/chapter1.html
http://www.auburn.edu/~allenkc/openhse/calvinism.html#Introduction
🙂 ….”That I came to indecently I might add.” should read independently not indecently.
I am sure you had a good chuckle with that Don. 😀
I have seen many friendships all but end debating this subject. I think there are many mysteries that we are not supposed to “die on the hill” for. Discussion is great, human pride often gets in the way of discourse. It has been an interesting thread, and the tone has been positive, but I don’t believe the mysteries are any closer to being solved than when it began.
Whats the next post likely to be about Don? 🙂
Rod in Oregon
Al,
Go tell Dr. James White the arguments in that last link demolish the points of Calvinism.
http://vintage.aomin.org/dividingline.html
One reason I did not want to post your views on Calvinism in the first place is that you present one sided arguments and then think that settles it. There are Calvinists that read this Blog and allowing a one sided argument to just stand is absurd, but I do not want a endless A vs C debate in the comment section of my posts either. If you debated a real Calvinist scholar your arguments would be answered with good counterarguments.
Anyone can think they have the correct answers when they argue with Calvinist idiots. I remember certain people who liked to tell me they were Calvinists who really knew nothing about the theology. If you take the Arminian view with someone that really understands the Calvinist theology you will be the one that comes away looking mentally deficient because Calvinism is an intellectual argument from the scriptures. If a person was using pure human intellect to put all scripture in a unified theory he would be a Calvinist.
In any debate that I have heard between two experts the Calvinist has always had the better intellectual argument. Arminianism wins points in the debate when showing the nature of Jesus Christ on earth. Arminianism is based more on the heart and feelings rather than human intellect.
Now you also know why emotional type churches like Pentecostals tend to be Arminian while more intellectual churches like Presbyterians tend to be Calvinists.
Al, you have tried to start an A vs C argument on several of my recent posts now and I am getting fed up with it. Put it to rest.
Its time to get back on the post topic on all my posts.
Rod,
I agree, you can be sure my next post will not be on Calvinism. I hope people can comment about something else here besides Calvinism or else say nothing at all. My next post will probably be my monthly perspectives.
Okay Don I am Done on this.
BTW: I did go to the link that you provided – and followed a discourse between Dave Hunt & James Whyte. I agree with Hunt’s reply to Whyte’s open letter critique of Hunt’s book.
http://www.thebereancall.org/calbook.htm
Al,
Like I said previously, Dave Hunt and Dr. James White did a long debate on Calvinism. I am sure those books and the audio’s are available on either Dr. White’s site or on Dave’s site.
Don,
🙂 Looking forward to the next article.
Rod
I really enjoyed reading this post. It was not only informative, but you confirmed the belief I have that “Humans are without excuse, they naturally know what is evil.” Not only do I believe that America is a “Nineveh,” I believe it’s become another Sodom and Gomorrah!
Don, i may have steered away from the topic slightly but how true that most pastors and churches have been teaching the feel good version of Christianity. Just yesterday i went out to buy my daughter a birthday card. I usually like cards by Helen Steiner Rice and upon looking for religious cards they had a section of greeting cards for all different occasions from none other… are you ready for this? Cards by T.D. Jakes & Joel Osteen. Most of the cards speak of how God has a plan tp prosper you. lol These hucksters have fleeced their congregations first, then television viewers, then sold books to gullible readers, then the concert tours of the country to hear them preach, and now greeting cards. Whats next? How about selling shares of the ministry but having no value or ownership rights. Hey the Green Bay Packers did it and made millions. What a sick world we have.
Hi Robert… Reminds me of the “selling of indulgences” that led to the reformation! “Just keep sendin’ money, and it will keep your soul out of that other place that we don’t really believe exists”… How sad! And disgusting.
Rod in Oregon
Hi Robert Rivera ,
Amazing these guys are now promoting their own greeting cards. I have yet to find one single verse of scripture where God says anything in His Kingdom is for sale. Even more amazing is that people keeping giving these false prophets money. Thanks for the information. BLESSINGS!!
don what do you think about tim mchyde from end times bible prophecy made plain. He teaches that the rapture comes after the trib. But he seems to make alot of good points too so i’m confused about him.
Jason,
I know nothing about the guy but just looking at the titles on his website tells me its mostly outer fringe sensationalism. This is hardly making end times Bible prophecy made plain. It is making Bible prophecy silly.
Don,
I have been listening to Pastor James MacDonald… and James believes that the rapture will occur shortly after the midway point Daniels 70th week – 3 and a half years plus a few week or months… Just before the GREAT tribulation – The day of the Lord wrath. James points to a few indicators; one being that the delusion that will envelope the world, would also likewise delude the Saints/Elect IF it were possible. He believes that in fact WE WILL see the anti-Christ and many of us will lose our heads. He see’s the elect taken away IMMEDIATELY prior to God pouring out HIS WRATH. What do you think about this? I personally can’t find anything that would clearly allow for a discard of His belief in this.
Al,
I think it is off topic for this post so I am not going to get into any timings speculations here. Many good Bible prophecy teachers have already written about why the pre-wrath position has big problems. It is not a new theory. Just do a Google search if you want additional information.
“”Yes, history tells us that nations and people without any relationship with the true God of the Bible can prosper, while those that claim to know God but kill their young, oppress the innocent, embrace unnatural evils and act like brute beasts receive swift judgment from God.””
—————–
Don, I think this article is an excellent parallel between the U.S. and Nineveh.
I have been reading about the great world empire powers Assyria and Babylon.
The gap between them and the rest of the world at the time was so extreme that it would have seemed to a human mind at the time that it was totally impossible that these great empires would ever be defeated.
Yet, it was foretold by the Biblical prophets and it came to pass by the Hand Of The Living God.
The U.S. is, I’d bet, as arrogant, sinful, and pagan based as Babylon and Assyria was at their time…with the exception of the restraining force, related to True Christianity.
If not for the Christ loving people in this nation since the U.S. was founded, I think the U.S. would already be done away with.
There is only one way the U.S. is going to escape a similar demise like Assyria…and that is as a nation to turn to God…as you’ve pointed out a million times.
The reality, as again you’ve pointed out a million times…is that the U.S. is moving along perfectly to help fulfill the end time prophecies.
This is nothing new on your blog…but I’m seeing such a parallel with the other great empires and the U.S.
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Mic 6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?