I had shoulder surgery Friday so I really am not physically or mentally up to doing any long post this week. It all seems to be going well but I think the steroids or something else they used really did a number on my ability to think through issues or even stay awake.
Probably one of the most important issues in Christendom is taking place at Grace Church led by John MacArthur. It is called the Fresh Fire Conference and is getting into all the negative influences that the Charismatic/Pentecostal Movement is having on the modern Church.
Whether you agree with MacArthur that the signs gifts ceased or not, you might want to hear out his arguments against what is taking place in the Charismatic movement under various movement subtitles. This site seems to have much of the audio material from the conference so you might want to check it out.
I now see that site only offered short clips, you might want to check out this blog for the recaps.
http://www.gty.org/blog/B131017
And Worldview Weekend is offering some articles on this conference.
The whole conference will probably be available at MacArthur’s Grace to You website sometime in the near future.
There certainly are a lot of abuses going on under the name of the Word of Faith movement and the NAR and other signs and wonders or prosperity theology handles. I am sure that this conferences will get into all the major issues. Like I said, it probably is going to be the most talked about event in Protestantism in years.
Whether it will actually change anything for the better is yet to be determined. The last time any nationally known leader in Christendom took a formal stand against the abuses going on within these popular movements through a book or a major conference was many years ago. The Church should not be silent when our brothers and sisters claiming to follow Jesus are led by bottom-feeding-scum-sucking-money-loving hucksters into profane theology and offering strange fire before the Lord.
I wish you a speedy recovery Don.
Don,
May the Lord speed your recovery. I had to respond to the “scum-sucking bottom feeders” line. I totally agree. It is all about money with these guys. I used to be involved in pentacostalism and I have seen these slugs involved with drugs, committing adultery with married women in the congregation and a number of other wicked practices. Thank God someone is speaking out and warning the Saints.
Ken,
Been their myself a long time ago but it has only gotten worse
Don,
I also ask the Lord to bless you with a speedy recovery.
I was able to stream all 3 days of the conference.I thought Bentley/Joyner escaped much of criticism they deserved. Bethel, in Redding,CA seemed to receive the attention they deserved.
It will be interesting to hear and see the SBC reaction here, in Texas, and what pushback there will be from the WOFers crowd – Kenny, Benny, and Joel, in particular.
Hello Don,
I pray your shoulder heals perfectly and God Bless you for a speedy recovery too!
Sincerely, Vicky
“There is a stream of sound teaching, sound doctrine, sound theology, that runs all the way back to the Apostles. It runs through Athanasius and Augustine, through Luther and Calvin, the great Reformation and Reformers, and the Puritans, and everything seems so clear to them.” This is a quote from WorldView Weekend you posted. Making an argument about an issue based on the position of the “church fathers”, is not a solid way of making a doctrinal stand. These men were responsible for bringing many incorrect views, especially in the area of eschatology!
Paul addresses the issue about calling yourself a follower of anyone besides Christ in I Corinthians 1. So I really can’t stand when people say they are of Calvin!
Michael,
Although I might not totally agree with everything said by this author. Your statement does not stay true to the context and distorts what the author really implied. He is implying that one stream was historical Christianity going back all the way to the foundations of the Church and the other stream started recently in 1966 among drug influenced hippies often just looking for a new high. Reread that part of the article and you should see he was not saying that these men he mentioned had everything correct. He was implying that they built their positions on infallible biblical doctrine passed down through the Church fathers and the other stream follows recent fallible feelings and experiences.
Don,
Let’s change the topic from sign gifts to dispensational premillennialism. Hypothetically an author could use the same line of argumentation against dipensational premillennialism. Augustine, the reformers, the puritans did not hold to that position and it is relatively a new concept initiated by Darby. We would argue to look at the Scripture and see what the Scripture says. While I agree with the authors position on sign gifts, I just don’t like the line of argumentation.
Don,
Here is one subject where I agree with you, as far as those “bottom-feeding-scum-sucking-money-loving hucksters,” as you called them. However, you could have added a few more appropriate names for them, such as: Thieving Criminals-Atheists-Con artists-Tax evading mongrels-Wolves in sheep clothing, etc.
But I have to disagree with you also, when you claim and state that “our brothers and sisters claiming to follow Jesus are led by” these despicable persons. Now, why do I disagree with you? It is simple, the people who fall prey to these swindlers are not “brothers and sisters that follow Jesus, because the only way that anyone can fall into their trap are those seeking their own monetary gains. I would say that those performing the fleecing by requesting those “money seeds” and the fleeced, which send those money seeds, really deserve each other. Neither you nor anyone else should be referring to others as “brothers and sisters in Christ,” when these others are out for money, and is most assuredly the very reason why they become victims, which is due to their own greed. Jesus became infuriated and violent when he saw his father’s house (the temple in Jerusalem) being used for financial business. “My House is a house of prayers, but you have made it a den of thieves.” Following is a web site that has compiled a list and some info on some of the more prominent “fleecing pastors.” I believe that the list is really short, since it did not include the biggest and oldest “wolf,” The Roman Catholic church.” It should be clear that I’m not endorsing anything on the http://www.inplainsite.org web site, I just found the list useful since it touches on the subject at hand. And remember, that anyone seeking out Jesus for worldly gains of any type, whether it is money, health, or fame, is not a follower of Jesus, nor a doer of his teachings. The only reward we should be seeking is the Kingdom of God, as Jesus taught. The only reason that Jesus performed a few “worldly” miracles such as; giving “fish and bread”, “health”, “resurrecting the dead,” and “turning water into wine,” was to provide signs of his Divinity so that people may believe in him and his message from the Father and Creator, God.
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/tele-evangelist_lifestyles.html#Tele-Crouch
If I were Jesus, I would cure your shoulder immediately; so that you would believe what I’m stating is truly God’s wishes. But I’m not, and I can only hope and wish that your shoulder heals quickly.
Best regards,
Frank
Michael,
Its apples and oranges. Dispensational premillennialism came from valid interpretations of scriptures that were lost because of the amillennial allegorical interpretation of the prophetic scriptures that dominated Christianity for a century and and a half under institutionalized religion. It did not come from those claiming a new work of the Holy Spirit with a Baptism and sign gifts after conversion.
I do agree with you that his line of reasoning is faulty. The Calvary Chapel people did not start the Pentecostal movement. What became Calvary Chapels started with a small movement out of one church in California. That Church soon departed from the “Four Square” denominational roots and they deemphasized much that the Pentecostals claimed. The vast majority in the Calvary Chapel movement stayed on solid Biblical ground and they remain on solid biblical ground today. Although they are not cessationists, you will not see the sign gifts in any formal Calvary Chapel church service. The others that wanted new revelation and experiences formed their own independent Charismatic churches, infiltrated denominations, and started new movements like the Vineyard movement and Word of Faith movement.
Frank,
There are many Christians that find salvation in Jesus Christ and then later get caught up into following those peddling healing or riches or other things for many reasons. Mainly because they watch “Christian” TV and are gullible sheeple. All this nonsense is not going to help in their sanctification process but it does not nullify their justification by Jesus Christ either.
You like to make everything black and white, but even you’re not all black or white.
You already know that I am not going to argue with you about this, so save your fingers. I posted it because some of what you said is useful.
Thanks for the wishes about my shoulder.
Hello Don, will pray that your shoulder heals very well. Going through any kind of surgery is an unsettling thing. Just get better. Quite frankly the word of faith people are so delusional that if Jesus Christ came in the flesh to reprimand them they would still be delusional.
At any rate, I am away from them. And God has brought a lot of healing to me. Now I do not know who to trust. I do not pray in tongues every day. But my prayer lanquage is from the Holy Spirit. Over the years I have spoken in other languages. One was a Russian dialect. Do not get into a spasm while you are healing. The problem with speaking in tongues is that so many people deny it, others abuse it, some fake it and a few actually flow in it. So I am your friend but will not deny that flow in tongues.
I get emails from Worldview and then linked to a nausecous video by Mark Dricroll (watch at your own descretion). Maybe I’m wrong but this stuff just borders on fortune telling and/or witchcraft. John McArthur sure is getting a lot of backlash (of course) from these movements and commenters on The Christian Post. Only one in favor I have read so far. I’m having trouble with the site locking up so can’t get to the authors.
Praying for you speedy recovery and pray for Pastor John McArthur as well.
Hope you are doing well and gaining your strength back Don. Too bad you aren’t a high paid athlete or you so ld be getting a nice check while you recuperate. Lol Get well!!
Don, Sorry to hear of your need for surgery. I pray you will have a full recovery! I am glad that you clarified the misconception that McArthur made about Calvary Chapel. Most of them are really great Bible teaching churches. I praise the Lord for McArthur bringing this subject in such a large forum. I just pray that God will give him wisdom in his delivery.
Hi Kate,
I do not know the position of MacArthur on Calvary Chapels. It was was not MacArthur that wrote the article that I referred to. Most Calvary Chapel leadership would agree with much said in this conference. The Conference is over but the debate continues.