106 thoughts on “Are these tornadoes God’s judgment on America or a test of faith?”

1. I gotta disagree with you here. To think that God would 100% move Christians out of the way is unbiblical. With all of the flooding, tornadoes, etc., and the timing of Obama’s throwing Israel under the bus, it is easy to see this is God’s judgment. Whether we call it “God permitting it” or God actually doing it, it is not clear and won’t be until we are with the Lord.

   Every time the good ol’ US of A messes with Israel, we get a kick to the crotch. It even happened when Bushie’s father was president. Some of his family heirlooms were destroyed in Maine after announcing new plans for *peace* about 20 years ago.

2. Don ,
   Recently I have noticed that the more I try to be faithful in prayer the more things seem to go wrong. They have been relatively minor things, but very frustrating, as if satan is trying redirect my attention to my problems as opposed to staying fixed on my Savior. When I sense I
   am being attacked by the demonic, it tells me I am doing something right. My stradegy is get
   angry about the attack and pray more , more prayers of thankgiving and gratitude, pray more for others. I try to make an effort to get my focus off self. While my heart breaks for the people affected by the tornados and floods , God’s judgment will make all the severe weather seem as nothing in comparison. In no way do I mean to minimize the personal effect and the difficult circumstances the tornados and other natural disasters have caused for many. Christians too are numbered among the suffering and they are not being judged, just persecuted
   for their faith.

3. Frank ,
   These same types of violent tornados occured in 1953 in Waco,TX., Michigan, and Massachusetts.
   America was not as immoral then as we are in this decade. Moral decline has accelerated at an ever increasing pace since 1953 . Every day is judgment day for someone as both Christians and those who reject Christ die everyday, often without warning. Christians are not immune to the everday troubles of being human. BLESSINGS to YOU!!!!!!!

4. I agree, I don’t see how the Midwest tornadoes could be attributed to God’s judgment.

   I do favor the notion, with all that is happening in the world on a global scale…that we are seeing the start of the “Birth Pangs” as Biblical prophesy dictates in the last days.

5. To Don Fritts first, I agree. My family and I have been getting slammed by virtually everything that could posssibly be used to take a persons eyes off Jesus there is, and I agree that we must be doing SOMETHING right to be hit this way. Secondly, and I hope this dosen’t portray me as being too much of a sissypants spiritually, but I fervantly hope and pray that me and mine won’t ever be tested as much as some of these poor souls have been in Louisiana, Mississippi, Mouorssi(sp?), etc. I mean, this is virtually the same thing Job endured. The thing that really, really scares me is that I AIN’T JOB, and I KNOW IT!!! I pray my faith would endure if something this devestating would ever happen to us. I pray to God it would.

6. I know from scripture that we are all part of a giant drama that is playing-out before the Heavenlies. As such everything (even what people might consider to be judgments) are tests of faith: What is faith, but belief in action, which is trusting our lives (as well as our eventual deaths) to the promises of our God? Our trust is of extreme value to Him!

   Anything, everything, even the way we recover from our screw-ups, are made holy and redeemed by our God when we surrender them to Him. Nothing and everything is base and (eternally) worthless when we won’t trust God with them, with ourselves.

   Things do not have to have the “Suffering-for-Christ” stamp-of-approval in order for us to be able to able to count-on His help: He wants us to abandon all these things to His care. Some of us don’t want to “bother” God with anything but the “sacred.” Some of us can’t bring ourselves to depend on Him (we were designed to be dependent on God: it’s OK!). Some of us don’t want to give God control. Others are afraid God doesn’t “want” our “stuff.” But, that’s what His family is about; He want’s us to share it with Him and to trust Him with it all.

   Such trust is easy for a child who has experienced love; it is VERY DIFFICULT for adults who have been jaded by the world: I think Abba honors and blesses even our (adult) baby steps in trust more than we might imagine.

   These things that have happened are tragedies; these things that have happened are also opportunities. Only our God can give us meaning in these and other agonizing things, peace that is not understood in human-only terms.

7. Frank, I also have to disagree with you. To say that God would not move his people out of the way before His judgments came on Christians is what is not Biblical.

   God moved Lot before his Judgment He also moved Noah out of the way of the water. What was the conversation with Abraham all about when God said that he would spare the city if only for a few righteous people? The Angels could do nothing until Lot left. Well there are thousands of righteous Christians in these cities that are just as righteous as Lot. This is not God’s judgment, it is a test of faith if anything, permitted to Satan. It is not God’s judgment.

   As for tit-for-tat judgments on the US because of Israel, I think you need to read this post and not just listen to the talking heads on Charismatic Christian TV.

   https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/telling-the-truth-to-israel-in-these-last-days.html

8. Hi Don

   Your article expressed my thoughts on the recent floods we have experienced on the East coast of Australia and on the Gascoyne River here in the West.

   If they were God’s judgements then I am afraid his aim was poor, for two of our most libertine cities have been untouched by any natural calamity.

   It was my thought that there must be some hope of repentance in the areas hit by this destruction, but little or no hope for repentance in the major cities. It seems that their judgements may be being held in store. And if we consider the judgements of the Day of the Lord, what we are experiencing now pales in comparison.

9. Good post, Don, and Brett, what a great comment, thank you for posting.

10. Don is correct. If scripture teaches us anything, it’s that the we have already been judged by God and are found wanting. These things are a test of our faith that is tried in the fire. The question I always hear at time such as these is, why does God allow bad things to happen to good people? I try to ask, why do good things happen to me?

    I sit here in PA as basically an out of work home builder, my wife also about to lose her job due to budget cuts. I have the ability and know how to go to these places and help these people rebuild. Will I go? Probably not because I’m a coward. To comfortable in the land that I was born and raised in, God help me.

    Brett to is correct. Faith is action, based upon belief, sustained by confidence in God’s word. I wish that I had some. Even as little as a mustard seed worth. God…I pray…give me faith. Faith that I can say…though he slay me…yet will I trust him.

11. You are correct it is NOT judgement! It is simply Chastisement, for the Lord established this country and loves it and us. He is chastening us (punish) to correct us from the path that this nation is going. As it says in the scriptures He chastens those that He loves, believers or non-believers, He loves us all and desires us to come to repentance and stop looking for the answers from man and acknowledge Him as the answer to all our problems whether it be economic, moral or just turning our backs on Him.

12. Ken C

    I find your honesty refreshing. I will pray that the Lord answers your prayer.

13. I still think that a Job like scenario is much more likely. I can think of cities with Christians that are much more worthy of Chastisement and if God is causing this to Chastise Christians in the whole nation where is the lesson in this? Is it that our most decent cities will be chastised because they are doing what is right?

14. Don,

    The Rain falls on both the Just and Unjust alike. Was Job not a righteous man? Gods wisdom is beyond ours! Had this fallen on San Francisco would the Unjust recognize this as chastisement, I dont think so, but those who through the Holy Spirit and who seek Him first will recognize this as a wake up call or chastisement and use this as an opportunity to bring the unbelievers to know His mercy and grace and salvation. We all have a appointed time should we argue with God as to when He wants us to come home?

15. When the rain falls on the just and unjust alike the rain (or in this case tornadoes) have nothing to do with chastisement.

    It was explained in Job why this happened to him. Satan wanted him to curse God. It was a test of faith.

    However, I do agree that we are all appointed to die and when and how we die is all in God’s timing. There is no real death for Christians because we died with Him and now live in Him.

16. By the way, the unjust will never see any event as a wake up call or chastisement from God and these people are not going to become converts if they think God wiped out these cities as some chastisement of those that believe in Him.

17. They say there is two sides to every coin, but the reality is there are three, Just, Unjust, and fence walkers. God prefers an actual two sides those who believe and those that do not, it would be like God to use such disasters to get the fence walkers to make the choice that we are required to make, to believe or not to believe. It is His way to separate the wheat from the chaff for the time is ripe for harvest. Jesus healed the blind man who was blind from birth and the disciples asked if it was his sins or the sins of his parents, Jesus said that this was allowed that the Father might be glorified. I am not saying your wrong, just giving another view of how God can work. Who can know the way’s of the Father?

18. This is the type of reasoning God desires us to have, so we can sharpen each others steal. May He bless your day! See you SOON!!!

19. These tragic events present an opportunity for ministry to those who are suffering from the
    natural disasters. May each of us seek God’s face to determine how we can help those in need
    according to His will , not our will. It would be wrong and arrorgant for me to try to tell
    any of you what you should do to help others in need. That is between you and Him. The one thing we can all do is pray for Him to show us what He would have us to do. BLESSINGS to ALL!!!

20. Awatchmen4Him,

    That is real comforting talk to the people in those cities. No disrespect, but you make arguments for God and sound a bit like one of Job’s friends.

    God is not separating the wheat from the chaff today this is not the great harvest at the end of the age.

    Your last point is correct, we do not really know why this happened but those who claim it is a judgment of God are wrong, as you also claim. I think it is a Job like scenario but I do not speak for God either.

    I agree that these issues need to be debated because there is a lot of presumption being taught out there in TV land by Christians as if it is truth from God – for example, It is interesting that if you do a Google search on “tornadoes God’s judgement” my article comes up second, what comes up first is an article sarcastically saying that this is God’s judgment on conservative states. After all, Hagee and Beck and others have claimed that what happened to New Orleans was God’s judgment on them.

    The article suggests that it happened because conservatives do not take care of the poor the elderly and the sick like Jesus commanded. Actually, the facts are that conservatives give much more in charity to help the truly needy in our nation than do liberals and they pay more taxes to boot.

21. Abba, we lift-up our brother Ken C and his wife and family to You! You know their extreme needs right now! They need work; they need sustenance, and they are desperate! We know they are on Your heart because You have put them on our heart! Thank You that You already have provision arranged for them in Your timing and way, and thank You that You honor the steps of faith that Ken and his wife have already taken and will take!

    Heavenly Father, we look to see *what* You will do in Your great *extravagance* – Ken and his family are *not* going through this alone: there are a multitude of angelic and human witnesses watching to see what You will do in and through them! You have linked Your greatness with His distress, with the hardships of all Your children!

    Ken’s sharing his distress and being vulnerable with us is already bearing Your good fruit, encouraging many of us, each in the way Your Spirit has in mind! Please help us to internalize his example. Please remind us to keep praying for each other! We are *so blessed* that You will use each of our trials to make us more like Jesus in character, and we are blessed that there is nothing, not even humiliating hurts and death, that will separate us from Your love in Christ!

    Please glorify Yourself in each of us! We praise You God: Father, Jesus and Spirit!!!

22. I do not completely agree that we will not see judgment as many of you have said. Why are Christians slaughtered all over the world every day? I’m no scholar, but 1 Peter 4 clearly talks about trials and judgment coming on believers:

    (12) Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: (13) But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. (14) If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. (15) But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men’s matters. (16) Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. (17) For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

    Now to be fair, this passage is SPECIFICALLY talking about suffering for claiming the name of Christ. I understand that; however, most commenters here have completely thrown out the possibility of believers suffering at all. And that’s what I disagree with. Furthermore, according to vs. 17, judgment must begin where?

23. Matt,

    Like you said, this passage is talking about the trial that we will go through for the cause of Christ, that is the whole context of the passage along with the suggestion that God will discipline His people if they are committing the evils mentioned in this passage. But the question remains is God really disciplining His people in these cities because of their wrongdoing or is this really a test of their faith? I do not know what commentators here are suggesting that Christians will not suffer at all. I do not see that at all.

24. Don, I see WOF influence in the belief that Christians should not suffer in these storms. Under WOF beliefs, a Christian can “speak” to the tornado and send it away. I suspect we will shortly see and hear of this. The most likely sources will be the Rick and Todd show.

    T.D. Jakes is coming to Houston. So, we will triple team the bad weather demons (Jakes, Joel, and Victoria) and keep Christians in Houston safe.

    Y’all come.

25. Yeah Bob,

    The WOF people are the same ones that control most of Christian TV and they are the ones saying that this is proof that America is under God’s judgment and now they will come and tell us how the anointed can stop God’s judgments on America by using their anointed big wind bags to take dominion over the air (their mouths).

26. I think it was Billy Graham that once said, “if God doesn’t judge America, then he owes Sodom and Gomorrah an apology.” Even in the O.T., God’s people sometimes had to endure the consequences of judgment directly or indirectly.

    And no, I do not get my views from WOF charlatans or anyone else. Just read/study the Bible.

27. May God bless you Don and Brett, and all who desire God’s truth.

28. No doubt that America will be judged as a nation if she continues on this path but the destruction of two small decent cities is not likely the way God is going to do it. Americans have already sowed the seeds of our destruction by whom the majority put in office.

29. Ummm…what is WOF ?…Wheel Of Fortune ?

30. Word-of-Faith

31. Can I ask…am I being presumptuous in thinking this time in our world could be the start of the ‘birth pangs’ as written ?

32. It depends on who you ask. True dispensational futurists like Dr. Thomas Ice would say the birth pangs occur only within the last seven years. He would say there are no signs before the Rapture. No matter what your position on birth pains is they relate to Israel and not the United States.

33. I guess I should have said pure dispensational futurists instead of True dispensational futurists. Many dispensationalists seem to combine some historicist views within the futurist view. In other words, they see signs before the Rapture and before the seventh week begins but it seems to destroy immanency.

34. I have read Ken C.’s May 25th post 2 or 3 times. It sounds like you are “boxed in” to where you have no alternative but to rely on God. I am praying for you and your family.

35. Anyone in PA reading this that needs a house built?

36. Brett, that was a beautiful prayer for Ken C. I have prayed it, too, and thank you for the reminder that we need to pray for each other continually. God bless you all.

37. I thought Mathew 24:7-8 was referring to the entire world, but that’s why I asked. I haven’t got to that part with Pastor Smith or Missler yet.

    If it’s related just to Israel then, of course, it hasn’t happened yet. And, I see your point about immanency.

    Ken C., I also am praying for you and your family.
    I have always regarded your posts very highly.

    ~David

38. Thanks for your concern Bob.

    Don I apologize for taking this thread down this path. Please allow me to attempt to retrieve it for us. I appreciate every ones sincere concern for me and my family. Perhaps I portrayed the situation a little more bleak than it actually is. My point was that I’ve spent my entire life trying to hold on to my “things”, maybe it’s time to let the things go.

    I just wanted to echo Don’s sentiments that these current tragedies in the mid-west are not a judgement upon those people per se (it seems to me that all people are judged of God), but rather an opportunity for faith, both for them and for us (if we are faithless, will we not also be judged?). I’m not saying that we should all go running in there and pick up a hammer and start building houses. I’m sure many construction workers already living there also need work.

    I was simply internalizing the situation by saying, here I set in PA, basically out of work, and this terrible thing has just happened, and what can, or more importantly, what should I do, as a Christian. Once I internalized it, and thought to myself, I probably won’t do anything, I realized how selfish I truly am.

    I leave you with these questions to ponder. If these things are judgements from God, should we as Christians be happy that God has dealt justly with them? And will He not then deal justly with us as well? And if the latter is answered in the affirmative, God help us, and if it’s answered in the negative, God help you.

    This was on my mind.

39. David,

    I guess you misunderstood what I was trying to say. Of course the birth pains will impact the whole world but if Dr.Thomas Ice has it correct the birth pains have to be about God dealing with Israel again after the Rapture of the Church for their final 70th week of years. In other words, The Church age would have ended and God would be dealing with Israel again for the last seven years to finish the transgression before the birth of the Kingdom on earth in Israel. We do not see that now.

    I said pure dispensational futurists like Dr. Ice would put the timing of all the birth pains in the 70th week of years spoken of by Daniel. If the 70th week starts the birth pains and the Church age is still here and Israel is not yet in the 70th week then anything going on today in the United States or the rest of the world is not the beginning of birth pains according to Ice.

    I also did not say that Dr. Thomas Ice is correct because as I said, some think that there are signs before the 70th week, but if there are signs for the Church it seems to destroy the doctrine of Immanency.

    Some think first there will be false labor pains and that we are seeing that and some like myself see false labor pains but see that as the first five seals. I see the first five seals as a false tribulation enactment by Satan to convince people that they already went through the tribulation so that they will accept the Antichrist as some sort of world Savior and fulfillment of all religious Eschatology expectations. However,I still do not see anything going on now as the fulfillment of any of the seals of Revelation. I also think the Rapture happens some time before the first seal of Revelation.

    I speak of this elsewhere and all of this is off topic so I think that is the end of this rabbit trail. The post is about “Are these tornadoes God’s judgment on America or a test of faith?” So we need to get back to that.

40. Something about the notion of a false tribulation preceding the actual tribulation seems to feel right, but I have relied on resources like Don’s Revelation commentary (which I keep rereading) to give it some more credence than just a feeling. Oops… might not be back on track… sorry…

    I wasn’t going to chime in, but with the bulk of the personal tribulation stories herein, I guess I will say that we all seem to have similar frustrations and personal trials (of varying degrees from season to season, of course). Sometimes it’s the sense of duty that keeps me going, versus agonizing over the pains of your / our situations.

    With that said, I see no concrete correlation of the various events and any kind of judgment – other than, as LaHaye described the 9/11 events, as “a sign of the times”; Of course, satirically, it’s just global warming LOL.

    Don – thanks for the description about Job and how it didn’t / doesn’t stop there. It seems to help or give some sense that the trials we go through will bring about good somehow.

41. If these things are judgments from God, should we as Christians be happy that God has dealt justly with them? And will He not then deal justly with us as well?

    It does not bring me pleasure to see the judgement of God fall on anyone. When this happens, I am *so much reminded* of my off-the-scale need for God’s mercy: Why Lord am I saved? Why am I given grace?

    In recent years I have come to a heart understanding of God’s grace and how it applies to me and to us; in a nutshell: Grace allows us to survive our screw-ups.

    It’s not that grace allows us to continue in our former (un-regenerated) way. No! That His Spirit indwells us ensures that we can never really go back to what we were…

    So, His initial saving-grace revives our dead spirits and sets us on the path to be conformed to Christ’s character. His grace is His acknowledgement that our conformation is a process rather than an event, and this very grace facilitates our life-long growth in Him. It is NOT that We are forgiven and THEN we must manage to keep ourselves holy; instead, we are forgiven and carried aloft, and holiness is another word for our healing to wholeness.

    For His children, God’s purposes are redemptive rather than destructive. AND the “race” we run, as Paul encourages us, is a *personal race* measured by how much we allow His Spirit to rework us into Christlikeness, which is active trust in Him, obedience to His gentle prompting, seeking that His desires be made our own.

    Coming to understand and *accept* God’s grace has made it possible for me to start modeling it my relationships with others. In this, God has become Abba to me, and I realized that I am liked as well as loved, and not simply “loved” but “beloved” and not simply “wanted” but “desired.”

    All the “stuff” we go through is really just means to the end that we fully, completely, maturely, ecstatically come into a love-relationship with our God, our Creator.

    …So, it is that grace has shifted my attitude towards others, and it is large part of why I take no pleasure in the judgement of God falling upon others.

42. The only people that take pleasure in troubles is the unsaved. But everyone knows the word “judgment” occurs more than the word “love” in the Bible. This world is wicked unfortunately. All you have to do is watch television commercials to see that. Heck, when the majority of churches let out on Sunday afternoon around here, the women are dressed like Las Vegas prostitutes.

43. “The only people that take pleasure in troubles is the unsaved.”

    Frank, That statement does not make sense to me and what you posted really has nothing to do with the post topic.

44. Brett, well said. I agree wholeheartedly with your comments. Especially, “Coming to understand and *accept* God’s grace has made it possible for me to start modeling it my relationships with others.”

    That was the point I wanted to convey, to wit, that the tower should fall on me, but by Christ and God’s grace I am redeemed.

45. My last post was partially in reference to Brett’s.

    You mention “judgment” in your topic header. God judges wickedness and wicked people. Or am IO reading a wrong book when I read the Bible?

46. God has not always removed the righteous from his judgement. We can clearly see that many of the prophets who were faithful to God still were also taken into captivity right along with the other Israelites and Jews. Daniel, Shadrack, Meshack, and Abednego were righteous but they were taken into captivity under the judgement, they were castrated, and God raised them up where they were, but they still suffered the judgement along with the rest of their people. Truly judgement begins with the house of God and even in the old testament, they were commanded to begin judgement with the Leivites.
    Too true that none of us are righteous, but what we do does matter. Yeshua himself, after the ressurection says in Rev “I know your deeds and I hold this against you”. For those who would say that the book of Rev was only relevant to the specific churches mentioned at that specific time, I guess we just disagree. I don’t see how it could be only for them at that specific time when it refers to the end of days and it’s prophecies have yet to be fulfilled.
    The Lord himself, in Jeremiah 30, while speaking of Israel returning and rebuilding on it’s own ruins says “I will punish all who oppose them”, then three verses later he says “behold the storm of the LORD will burst out in wrath, a driving wind swirling down on the heads of the wicked.” am I suggesting that the people affected were “wicked”? Consider when David sinned that it was his army that was affected, his men, his people who suffered and died. When Achan sinned, the whole community suffered. There are plenty of instances where God reveals how he judges the nations and it is a dangerous thing to say that God would not punish when he says he does. We must be careful to not selectively choose the passages and instances to determine what we think God will do according to our gooshy emotions and political correctness, while ignoring other passages because we are not comfortable with them. God is Sovereign and he is right no matter what he does and we do not need to apologize for him, indeed I think that would offend him. We are creating an idol, creating a god of our own making while ignoring things he has revealed about himself. there is no doubt that God loves them, us, and all people, and has paid a great price to redeem us, but when the cup of iniquity is full, his judgement does indeed come. Christians may be judged for not staving off the evil, remember, according to the Bible tolerance of sin is NOT a virtue. Do we even know what righteousness is? We say that we are good, but who are we comparing ourselves to? Unfortunatley Don, I don’t think this relates to the story of job, because I don’t think that anyone today can say as Job did that we are innocent.

47. Frank, I already answered your position. If you look at the first comment you posted and then go down to my follow-up comment to you, you will find my reply to your suggestion that God is judging America by allowing tornadoes to occur in these cities. I also gave you a link to an article why this has nothing to do with Israel as you claimed in your first comment. If you want to add to the post topic add some new argument not the same old judgment claims without showing relevance why judgment would come to these cities.

    Sarcastic remarks to me are not going to fly here Frank and they have gotten other Frank’s banned. The point is not whether God judges wickedness. I know quite well what the Bible says. However, you’re insulting a lot of Christians by implying that God is judging these cities and the Christians in these cities because of their wickedness and sparing the evil people elsewhere in America. Job’s friends said much the same thing to him and they were insulting to him and wrong. By the way, that also is found in the Bible.

48. God Judged Israel for not obeying the 7 year plan for the Land to rest, The city of Beth-shemesh after the ark was sent back, for looking in and on the ark. God is a just God and he loves all, But will not keep letting those that claim His name to keep living like the rest of the world. The same yesterday, today and forever. I believe we are in the days of Sorrows Matt. 24:8

49. Dawn,

    Seems to me that people can make great flowery speeches for God without fear, just like job’s friends.

    Yes we Christians do know what righteousness is, it is putting on Christ. We in Christ are every bit as righteous in God’s eyes as Job. We are covered with the blood of Jesus. I do not think some Christians understand that the Body of Christ is not Israel. Christians are not under the blessings and curses of Israel and God’s curse or judgment and we should stop applying such OT passages to the Bride of Christ. We are already without spot or wrinkle in God’s eyes because of the blood of the Lamb.

    If God allows trials in our life it will be for the cause of Christ. It will not be because God is beating up on or judging His Son’s Bride on earth. All things work together for good for those called according to His purpose.

    Heck, people who think like this might as well believe in Purgatory because nobody in the flesh is going to die in perfection, so obviously you’re going to have to go through God’s judgment before you get to Heaven. Why don’t you people go to the Sudan and tell the Christians there that they are under God’s judgment because they are being killed by Muslims or go to China or Iran or N. Korea and preach that gospel there. See how it flies. Well it should not fly here either. The Christians in our cities here are not receiving God’s judgment.

    Sure, if God judges this nation Christians are going to be impacted but so will everyone else in this nation. The judgment of America will not be coming because of true Christians and those that are Christians in name only are not Christians at all.

50. Read my last comment Bub, it applies. We are not in the time of Matthew 24:8 and that discourse was written to inform Israel not the Church

51. We are in the church age of the Laodicean Church. We as a nation are Revelation 3:20. He is not talking to the lost here, He is talk to the Church. We make God Sick!
    We call Sunday the Lord’s day and only a third of the people who are called Christians Keep this day for the Lord. We do what we want to do and after an hour of church on Sunday the rest of the week we think it is ours. God says it is all of His. Gold, silver, beast of the field, and you and I have been bought with a price more precious than Gold. I do not need to use the O.T. to show God’s weariness of so call preachers preaching Burger King Sermons (Have it Your way)

52. Pastor Bub,

    We might be ‘in the age’ of the Laodicean Church, but I for one am not IN the Laodicean Church. The mark of the Laodicean Church is its disinterest in the TRUTH and its resultant ignorance and apostasy.

    Those who know their weaknesses and yet patiently keep God’s word and do not deny His name are more descriptive of the Philadelphian church. There is no judgement for them only testing.

    Such disasters as we see almost daily may be a call to repentance to other church types, the Ephesian Church, i.e. to believers who have left their first love, but that is more to do with chastisement than judgement.

    However the subject of the blog is God’s judgement on a nation or a test of faith and it seems clear from eschatology that national judgement for the USA (and the world) is still around the corner.

53. Don ,
    You are totally correct that Israel and The Church are 2 seperate groups of people. This idea
    that The Church has replced Israel is satanic theology. I was told yesterday by a pastor in the
    Presbyterian Church USA denomination that the denomination has been taken over at the national
    level by liberals whom believe harmony is more important than TRUTH. They have voted to allow
    ordination of gay and lesbian clergy and say sexual purity is an individual choice , it should
    have nothing to do with theology or doctrine. I believe things going on are a test of faith
    prior to the coming judgment. In my opinion the rapture might be the start of the real birth
    pangs.

54. Hey bub, speak for yourself, Brian is correct, many of us are still in Philadelphia. Sure most calling themselves Christians in the West including many pastors are in Laodicea but if nations can be Laodicea as you claim it does not explain why two mostly Philadelphian cities were destroyed. Most of the people in these cities talk about the state of the nation and Christianity just like you do.

55. Ken, i too appreciate your honesty. I talk with many Christians and i can remember the last church i attended that was a WOF church and struggled with the B.S. they preached, did i not pray enough, tithe enough, whenever i needed healing, financial or spiritual needs and realized that this was false doctrine and we must all be tested as i and family have been. I too pray for God’s provision for you and your wife. I still struggle with helping neighbors, friends, and people who don’t appreciate the help and to the ones that think i am their personal guru i have stopped but to others i have to help and be who God wants me to be. My wife says not to let the world make me cold hearted and she is right. To Brett, what a beautiful prayer and you have a wonderful caring spirit. My mom used to say as others were cold i always helped people and had a caring spirit. I am thankful to Don and all on this blog for their honesty, insight, and compassion. Maybe we should all move to Don’s place and form a commune? lol

56. Thinking of what Dawn wrote, I wonder if there may be two senses in which the word “judgment” is used?

    It seems like “judgment” in one sense is a final, calamitous event from which there is no hope of recovery, redemption or reconciliation? There is a point at which everyone who has rejected Jesus will find themselves judged on that basis, and the result is final, beyond-description-awful, hopeless, and eternal for them.

    It also seems like there is a more “temporal” “judgement” that is a calamitous event which may directly precede judgement in the sense above *for some*, but for others there is another meaning which, when revealed, will be found to be ultimately beneficial to the believer…

    God’s love *is* sweet, winsome, nurturing, attractive, BUT it is also *TERRIBLE* as a consuming fire! He loves His children so much that He will purge us of all imperfections, refining us like gold in the great heat of the circumstances of our lives….

    …How much worse is it squirming about in God’s hand as His child, while He is trying to mend and remake us? We are so often inconsolable because our eyes and hearts are set upon the point of the needle about to enter our arm, when we could be looking into the eyes of the One who loves us best. Abba has been giving me much practice here (because there is much to fix in me), and I am gradually becoming used to His gentle hand – even when He must cause me pain, I am learning to take it as a healing balm, and this has removed much of the sting…

    For the prophets, for the ‘Jobs,’ for the myriads of believers throughout the history of the world, there have been troubles, first and second effects of The Fall, and consequences of our sins and those of others. We are not removed from trials, pain, humiliation, death, BUT God has redeemed the very concept of “trial” and “trouble” in that He uses all these things to make us better than we would have been if we had never fallen – that’s God’s style, it’s in His creative character to do this.

    Perhaps, more than we realize, we assume a trial to be a “judgment” and we assume that all those cast into the furnace of such a “judgement” are themselves being judged? We do not have God’s ability to know the hearts of others, nor His wisdom to know how best at any given stage of a believer’s life, to take them to the next stage of Christlikeness. We have to abandon ourselves to His wisdom in this just as we must cast ourselves on His care and mercy; the alternative is hopeless, meaningless madness (and unnecessary pain).

    All of this is bigger than we are, and I am *so blessed* to know in my heart of hearts that God is bigger still…

    Through very, VERY difficult experience I have learned that no “place” is truly harmful (or nasty or “icky”) {to me} where my God has asked me to join Him. It is why my first prayer for my brothers and sisters in such disasters is always that God help them to shine for Him in their circumstances, and that He provide for them to bring Him glory.

    Abba, please help us to understand that we will not always understand why good or bad things happen here and to whom. Please help us to yield to You, deferring to Your wisdom. Please give us a gentle, humble answer to others who are struggling with these very things, who would listen to our enemy who would slander You with the blame of all the hurt and pain of this world, in this age. Please glorify Yourself in us!

57. “God’s love *is* sweet, winsome, nurturing, attractive, BUT it is also *TERRIBLE* as a consuming fire! He loves His children so much that He will purge us of all imperfections, refining us like gold in the great heat of the circumstances of our lives…”

    God does love us, but I hope you are not saying we are going to be purged of all imperfections in this world/life. That sounds like we can achieve ‘sinless perfection’ which is not a Biblical belief. We are only purged of our sinful ways when we are with Him in heaven with our incorruptible bodies.

58. Robert said “Maybe we should all move to Don’s place and form a commune”

    Yeah, and bring plenty of cash with you and Ken C can build it and Brett can be the anti-establishment spiritual adviser. You could give the Amish around here something to think about. As for me, I see my old house in Arizona is now up for sale for half the price I sold it for about four years ago…. 💡

59. I think that the area of the U.S. that we are talking about is called, for good reason, TORNADO ALLEY. Not to sound unfeeling, but tornados happen every year in that part of the country just like flooding happens here and hurricanes happen in the east. We know that the earth has been subjected to the curse and is groaning until the redemption and restoration of all things. So, I can’t agree with your hypothesis, Don, that these are mainly Job type trials, no offense. God’s ways are so much higher than our ways and He is the ultimate multi-tasker. He can discipline cities and nations and still manage to deal with each individual in a customized way for His purposes and even orchestrate events and use evil to position the world for the end of days AND test believers and make opportunities for ministry. (sorry , run on sentence.)
    It is tempting to try to figure out the “why” and I’ve been struggling myself. I was prone to think that the Lord was judging those “pagan idolators” in Haiti, Indonesia and even Japan. Heartless, I know. The Holy Spirit has been working on me. “For who has known the mind of the Lord, that he should instruct Him? But, we have the mind of Christ.” 1Cor.2:16 Nobody has brought up the answer Jesus gave to a disaster in His day from Luke 13:4. He didn’t tell them why, He just said that the victims weren’t worse sinners than others.
    My opinion is that these events fall under the category of the beginnings of birth pangs. As long as I’m here, my response should be empathy, prayer, and helping in a material way as the Lord leads. In all these things God will be glorified, we can count on that. I’ll leave the why to Him. I know He is good.

60. Sorry, Dawn’s last statement was deleted because the theology lesson and views she gave was so long and it covers so many points from scripture that I do not even remotely suggest. Also her position on the Church in God’s plan is in error as is her position that these tornadoes are tit-for-tat judgments because of Obama position on Israel. I can hardly deal with all the points she brought up on the comment section of this post and even if I do I am sure I will get another long dissertation in return and any interest in the comments on this post will have died. Nor can I just let her misleading and misapplied statements on the blog stand to confuse others so it was deleted.

    Please keep your comments to under a few thousand words or I will put up software that will limit them.

61. Ammi,

    That is a legitimate viewpoint and it is one that I also have expressed often. Nevertheless, I do have to admit that God allows these things to happen to His own people in seemingly direct contradiction to other scriptures that talk about how God physically protects those who place their trust in Him. And I think Job is a good example of why God allows these things to take place. Make no mistake God is in complete control and nothing happens on earth without God’s permission even in tornado alley. God knows how to protect His own children in the storms of a fallen world if He choose to do so. Nevertheless, my Job analogy is only a suggestion. I cannot speak for a sovereign God.

62. Enoch is a picture of the Church, just as Abraham is a Picture of God, Isaac a picture of Christ. Enoch was taken out before the flood, Just as the Rapture will take us out before Trib. Yet there were many who trust God and walked in His ways after Enoch is taken. Methuselah, who lived to the year of the flood. Lamech, God still Judged the world even tho many knew God, Before there was a nation of Israel, God Judged the world for being disobedient.

63. No Frank, we won’t be remade perfect here and now.

    When we first surrender ourselves to Christ, we are a “new creation” – our spirits are made alive. (2Cr 5:17)

    Then, God works on our mind/soul, though a process of renewal that proceeds through our whole live-time. (Eph 4:23)

    Finally, our bodies will be redeemed – we will be mended of all the infirmities and Fall-related limitations in that *moment* when Jesus comes back for His Bride. (1Cr 15:52)

    As God is triune: one God, three persons. So we, His creation, are triune: one person, three parts: spirit, soul and body.

    I think the reason I mention this “process” of growth so much is because I am a “recovering perfectionist” and I did to myself unmeasured harm by trying to be “instantly” mature in my walk. Instead, I fell again and lived in misery, defeat and self-condemnation (I wanted to punish myself so God wouldn’t have to; I’ve wanted Him to discard me because I could not love Him as He should be loved). I was believing all the lies I learned to tell myself instead of believing God’s truth.

    I know that many others live their lives this way…AND still others heap condemnation on their brothers and sisters because they aren’t growing “fast enough” or in the “right” ways, dealing with their sin-issues in the ways others think they God would have them deal with them: there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus.

    God’s truth is that, by accepting Christ and His pardon, we are now counted *righteous*. (Rom 4 & 5, Rom 10:4)That means that when it is written that God hears the prayers of the righteous, we can know that our prayers are heard! But it still wasn’t that easy for me: I was “tainted” – I *was* “sin;” I *did* sin; **I was shame-embodied** – what I’ve done, what I am cannot be undone. God had to gently, but firmly convince me that “When I, the Creator of the Universe say you are ‘clean,’ Brett, you are clean. Trust me.” My BIGGEST STEPS beyond my initial surrender were for me to **choose to believe** God when He told me that I am righteous (because of Christ) and that I am clean (because He has made me so).

    There is a difficult balance to strike when dealing with ourselves and other believers: we are to encourage and admonish each other to pursue righteous behavior and to put-off our old sinful ways. At the same time, we cannot know the hearts of others (it is difficult enough to know our own hearts!), we have to trust that God’s Spirit is at work and knows best what issue to deal with first, when to deal with it, and how. This requires great patience and humility – things God will give us because He is these very things Himself. It is where faith and grace are intimately joined together. How can we condemn another for whom there is no longer any condemnation? We have no right; AND we have no right to condemn ourselves either.

    For some, it seems that the sins others commit are more important than the other’s themselves. I think it is safe to assert that to God, a person is more important than their sins – He would not have sent Jesus to die for us otherwise. We need to live under the New Covenant rather than the Old.

64. The first part is true Bub, but who says many were trusting in God after Enoch was removed? Just because God gave us the linage of the human race in the bible it does not mean that the names mentioned were trusting in God. However, even if you are correct and there were people trusting in God and they got killed in the flood it does not equate to what is happening now. We are still in the acceptable year of the Lord. When God judges the world at the end of the age all left on earth will go through the judgments but the world is not now in this period, neither are the destruction of two relatively decent cities part of the end of the age judgments.

65. David says “Tornadoes hitting Christian areas of the nation are not God’s judgment on America but they probably are a test of the faith of the Christians living there”

    As one that lives in a city with a bull’s eye on it for what seems like all tornadic activity in and around Arkansas, I can tell you that my prayer life has been ramped up 100% and my faith has grown tremendously. We had a tornado come thru our town the first of May.

    Yesterday I was sitting at my desk in the church office when all of a sudden 5 or 6 vans of storm chasers pull in the parking lot and the guys jump out, are running around and then start filming the clouds. The tornado siren right beside my office was blaring and there was a funnel cloud forming right over the parking lot.

    I can honestly say that after 45 days of what seems like continual prayer concerning the weather in this state, I was not really afraid yesterday. My mouth went dry for a bit, but I was in constant conversation with Jesus. Previously, before these 45 days, I would have taken a pill to calm down.

    The funnel cloud lifted, the storm clouds moved out, the sun came out and the storm chasers took off following the clouds. All I could say or think was “thank you Jesus. Your mercy overwhelms me.”

    I have never thought for a moment that Beebe, Arkansas was under judgement from God, but speaking for myself only, I do believe Jesus was testing and growing my faith. As I said, my prayer life has changed tremendously. I’m so thankful for this work of God in my life.

    I was on the fence about John McTernan’s stance that what America does to Israel, God does to us. Tuesday night I had just told my daughter that for some reasonI don’t agree with McTernan 100%.

    Thank you Don for this topic and putting things in perspective for me. I now disagree 100% with McTernan.

    🙂

    Cynthia

66. Do you really believe the church as a whole is rightious and living for God? Yes we are covered by the blood and when the father see me He see His Son, Yet as a Nation, and that is how God Looks, He looks at the condition of the nation and will show grace at first and is slow to wrath, and He has been waiting for the U.S. to come back but at some point He will Judge the nation. Thy Rod and thy staff, comfort me. He is the good Father that will spank. If we were a Christian nation there would be no abortions, No false gods’ in this country, churches would be full. Because Christ gave His life for the church.

67. Well bub, the Church is righteous in God’s eyes because of what Jesus did. The Church is living for God but many in it are also living for themselves. The Church still has the same sin issues that the NT addressed. But since you put church in small letters if you are talking about that church it has become increasingly apostate.

    We are not a Christian nation and we never were one although once America had widespread biblically based standards that society expected people to live their lives by. There are no Christian nations.

    You seem to want to mix apples and oranges and try to come up with lemonade. I never said that God is not displeased with this nation and that God will not judge it, on the contrary, I wrote many articles claiming that the United States is toast if the majority of people do not turn from their wicked ways. God disciplining His children has little to do with the rise and fall of a Gentile nation. God will discipline His children but death does not produce growth in your children. Would you kill yours for the sins of the nation that they occupy?

    The destruction on these largely God fearing cities did not happen because God is disciplining His people. If God were really like that He would never have sent His Son to die for us so we who put our trust in Him for salvation in this age of grace can be saved from our wicked ways. I dare someone to go to Joplin and play prophet and tell the people that God has now disciplined them for their wicked ways but is giving more grace to San Francisco and L.A. before judgment. They would be rightly stoned.

68. Pastor Bub, I don’t know if your question was addressed to me but…

    There is obviously a difference between being legally righteous and behaving righteously. Under the Old Covenant, behaving righteously was how a person’s love for God was measured (though faith that God would provide a messiah was what separated true Jews from cultural Jews). Under the New Covenant, the better covenant, Christ’s righteousness is applied to us and then God works that righteousness into our lives as He transforms us.

    Should the Church be punished? Does it deserve the wrath of a holy God: Yes, it does. However, Christ took all the punishment due to everyone who will accept His gift of pardon. The Church’s punishment has already been absorbed by Christ Himself.

    Rather than trying to “take our punishment back,” we as the Bride of Christ should accept this grace, enjoy bathing in the wonder and cleanliness it which will (by degrees) cause us to respond with soft and grateful hearts to the promptings of His Spirit in us. This is how the Church will transform her behavior, restore her closeness with Jesus, and become attractive ambassadors for God.

    To put it harshly, what right do we have to insist that God punish us after what He has done for us? We said that we accepted His gift of pardon; have we?? really???

    Would not our relationship with God and the world be better if we lived in “gratitude of His grace and mercies” instead of “fear of punishment and condemnation?” We are not slaves to the world, objects of wrath, instead we are children of God, beloved and treated as sons!

    When we focus on the reality of our position before Christ, we are freed from the mindset of a penitent-criminal. Yes, we were once enemies, but that is past and now we are freed to let Him work His good fruit in and through us. Once our “good deeds” were “filthy rags,” but now they are gold, jewels and precious stones to adorn us, as we allow Him to make us better reflectors of His glory.

    If we, as the Church, would start to believe more of these “high” things of what God has done for us, I wager there would be far less need for Him to correct us in “judgment.” There would not be words about how we need punishment, but words like “how can we get in on this too????”

69. Hey Bub,…I mean Brett, that was pretty well said!!

70. Thank you Don,

    You’ve all been very kind in response to my comments…each time I’ve pressed “Submit” I’ve thought, “Well, I’ve gone too far this time!”

    You all are a *great blessing* to me and help me grow! 🙂

71. Thanks Brett. When you get off topic it is still a blessing to read for most everyone that reads my Blog.

72. Brett, I can’t express how much your comments have ministered to my spirit. Thank you, and thank you, Don, for allowing the off-topic comments. They are a great blessing, indeed 🙂

73. The tornado damage is very devasting. I am praying for all the people that lost homes, property, pets and people.
    Don, what types of things will God do to bring judgement?

74. Hey Bub, you’re going to have to stay on the post topic here. This post is not about all the reasons that God should judge America. So your post was deleted. You might look for a more appropriate post to make such comments I do no disagree with them but they do not apply here. I say look for another topic because I do talk about the coming judgment of America on many posts on this blog. Use the search box and the sidebar for help finding those.

    Since you and Dawn are new here I suggest that both of you read my commenting policy, it is found on the top bar.

    Dawn,(her long article was deleted so don’t look for it, and her insult to me was not posted)

    Quoting thousand of words from all over the OT to prove whatever you think you were proving did not make your point with me because I think you were misapplying much of it as if what was said to Israel applies equally to the Church. You are the one that is selectively picking scriptures without regard to who the scripture was talking to.

    I am not going to get in a debate about all those scriptures here it would take the post off topic and waste my time. If you care to make one logical argument at a time why you think this is God judgement on these two cities. I might post it but I am not going to have some dissertation posted here because a peer review explaining the difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant and the Covenant to Israel and the New Covenant given to the Church would take this comment section totally off the post topic.

    So Dawn and Bub, read the comment policy and then reread the post and the existing comments and if you find anything that adds light to that topic that people should know here try to bring it up in a reasonably short logical focused comment.

    Now if anyone can’t abide by that they probably will not be commenting here at all. I also will not argue here about my decision to post or not post comments. As the founder of this Blog it is my judgment call on what theological viewpoints I will allow to be posted here.

    This comment itself will probably be deleted when I think the time is appropriate because it also gets the comment section off post topic.

    So any further discussion on why your comments were deleted or not posted will not be posted. My day already takes the time of two full time jobs so I have little tolerance for those who make me waste my time.

75. Hi Brett

    When you write a book on New Testament spirituality; or what constitutes the Christian life, I believe there are a number of us who would like autographed copies.

    Just a suggestion.

76. Thank you Brian; you are all are very kind and great encouragement to me: I am *so blessed*!!!

    We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. (Phl 4:13)

    Our present troubles are small and won’t last very long. Yet they produce for us a glory that vastly outweighs them and will last forever! (2Cr 4:17)

    We are *so blessed*!!!

77. Don ,
    Is it reasonable to conclude that the tornadoes, the flooding , etc are not necessarily a test
    of faith or judgment from God ? Can we really know ? All kinds of events happen that test the
    faith of Christians, some are minor events, some are major events. It seems to me those who do
    not believe have nothing to be tested unless the tradegy is God moving them to a position that
    He is their only hope. The epicenter of the 1996 Northridge,California earthquake was in an
    area that produced the majority of the X rated pornographic movies and videos. I do not think
    that earthquake in that location was just a coincidence.Of course, my opinion proves nothing.
    Was Hurricane Katrina a message to New Orleans because of all the voodoo and witchcraft going
    on there ? Could these events possibly be a test of how we Christians who are not directly
    affected by the tornadoes going to respond to those who are affected ? My grandaughter who is
    stationed at Ft. Bragg in North Carolina had a very close call in the tornado that occured
    there. She wound up in a ditch because she and other service members were trying to get elderly
    and disabled people to a safer place. Thank God everyone in her group was Ok , no serious injuries. You asked a great question , can any of us really provide a definitive answer ?

78. No we can’t provide a definitive answer and either could Job or his friends. That is because God is Sovereign and He does what He pleases in His creation.

79. Don, I guess I should apologize if my last post offended you, this is not how Christians should be able to “reason together”. I feel however that I have also been misunderstood on things that I thought I had communicated clearly, for example, I agree with you that I don’t believe that these cities are being punished for their wickedness, per-say, I don’t know anything about these cities and I don’t stand in judgement over them myself (I couldn’t). I pray for them and would never go there and tell them that they deserve this, that is not my point, I believe there is a profound difference between “personal judgment” and “national judgment. It is national judgment that affects everyone, the righteous and unrighteous alike. I also do NOT believe in replacement theology, but neither do I believe that there is such a great divide between the two because scripture says “Anyone who is in Christ Jesus is the seed of Abraham”, “You are heirs to the promise” “There is neither Jew nor Gentile”…well, we’ve already been over that.
    You said that I quoted thousands of words from all over the old testament, but since I kept a copy of the post I actually counted, I quoted 6 verses from the Old Testament and 30 from the New – which were specifically speaking to the “church”.
    If we are going to “reason together” shouldn’t scripture itself be the base of each view point? That is the only thing that I have based my opinion on, if you have scripture to support your view then please offer it and we can put “all scripture” together and discover what God would teach us “as iron sharpens iron”. Sharpening is not a pleasant process but if we emerge wiser for it it is worth it, no?

80. The problem is that you were using most of those 36 scriptures to argue for your theology that the Church is the same Bride in the Old and New Testament. That is not what this post topic is about. I agree that there is a difference between personal judgment and national judgment but I do not agree that Paul was saying that the OT saints are part of the Bride. The wife of Jehovah is not the Bride of Christ, but this is an entirely different topic and is off topic and it was the main reason why your very long post was deleted. Now don’t come back and argue that theology here because it simply will not get posted. It is off topic.

81. It was only addressing your response to me, this is why I considered it to be appropriate for this thread. Although I should have stuck more to clarifying the fact that I was not claiming the promises of Israel for America in bringing up Jeremiah 30 because in verse twenty God is clearly speaking to “those who oppose them”. I was placing us in that category to explain why I think these storms could be a national judgment against our country as Obama has been spending the last week oppressing Israel.
    I also was agreeing with you that our righteousness is in Christ, but Job was pleading his innocence, that he could think of no reason that he should be “punished”, where we can clearly see causes for punishment, if for no other reason than that our president was oppressing Israel and God has promised that “I will punish all those who oppress them”….with “a driving wind swirling down”. If we believe that God is Sovereign and His Word is eternal we have to at least consider that as an option.

82. Dawn,

    That is a prime example of what I was talking about, what you imply is out of context. Verse 20 in Jeremiah 30 clearly takes place after the time of Jacob’s trouble mentioned in Jeremiah 30 verse 7. Jacob’s trouble is the time of the tribulation we are not there yet.

    But, let’s just suppose you wish to use the blessings and curses passages as well, like many who take your position. America is not cursing Israel and Obama in not oppressing Israel. He might even like to oppress Israel but the American people will not let Him. Netanyahu’s speech before a joint meeting of Congress this week got 29 standing ovations so Obama’s position was clearly out of line with what Americans want and Obama did some backtracking on his words. If Obama continues out of the will of the American people he will be looking for a new Job shortly, because he will be fired by the American people. That will be his punishment. There is no reason to punish a nation that is already standing with Israel and supporting what the Israel Prime Minister himself said needed to happen when talking to our Congress. With all that broad support from America those who think God does tit-for-tat curses and blessings for how nations treat Israel today ought to be saying that America is now due for a great blessing because of the way we received the Israel Prime Minister.

    I can almost hear God talking to the angels about what you suggest: “Obama is out of line so I am going to bring judgment on two American cites to teach the Americans a lesson that their leader should not make suggestions to Israel that Israel does not agree with. However, all the rhetoric of the rest of the world and those evil Islamist’s I will let ride because I do not want to deal with them in tit-for-tat judgments, I want Israel to whoop them in a future war before I whoop the whole world. But wait a minute…. Israel still has not accepted my Son and for that reason I imply that two-thirds of the Jews in the land will be killed and one third refined through the fire of the tribulation (Zac 13:9)……….But hold on guys…I must already be dealing with Israel as if they accepted my Son if I am now cursing America because because of Israel??………..even though I Myself have not been blessing them ever since they rejected my Son???”

    Forgive my sarcasm here and God certainly would not say anything like that, but help me out here, that type of thinking simply does not compute.

    Yeah, Job was pleading his innocence because he was innocent and that is why God rebuked his friends that were telling Job this was all coming upon him because of something that Job did or did not do. I hate to nit pick words but it was not a judgment or a chastisement it was a test of His faith and a demonstration to Satan and probably the other angels. The point was that Job was a righteous man deserving of God’s special blessings and if the blessings were taken away as God allowed Job would remain faithful, and Job did. I see a parallel there to these two cities. I do not think God was bringing judgment on them. especially not because of something Obama said to a still fallen and cursed Israel. Who says Israel is still under the curse? God says so in (Ga 3:10) and the book of Hosea illustrates it, and the continual wars and persecutions that they find themselves proves it. They will not be restored to blessings from God until they acknowledge their sin and say blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. The Jews in Israel today will have to flee to the mountains of Jordan for protection and two-thirds will die. Those on the Christian Zionist extreme that are trying to get all the Jews back to the land before the restoration seem to ignore that fact, and they don’t even bother preaching the gospel to them.

    I put this link in my first comment reply for a reason, I wrote this article because it explains all that.

    https://www.thepropheticyears.com/wordpress/telling-the-truth-to-israel-in-these-last-days.html

83. Don,

    Does God pronounce judgement on nations in the age of grace or not? Is there any scripture to support or disprove this? I’m just wondering if in the age of grace if God specifically will punish evil nations or is it just our own actions come back to haunt us?

84. I believe the judgement of A.D. 70 happened in the age of grace. God used the Romans to destroy Jerusalem and the Temple..and subsequently the Jewish people were dispersed and taken captive to Rome. I think that might apply, although the nation was already under Roman jurisdiction. But, because of the eternal and unconditional covenant with Abraham, his descendants have never been totally destroyed or forgotten by God.

85. Genesis 12:3. I think the correlation between curses against Israel and subsequent troubles/disasters is certainly a reality. The Obama betrayal of Israel and the tornadoes is only one example of many recent happenings around the world. I don’t have time to mention all I know of, but going back just over a year ago Europe was allowing Palestinian lawfare groups to get war crimes arrest warrents against visiting Israeli officials. Thus stopping them from doing business there. The UK’s Advertising Standards Agency stopped Israel using anything in east Jerusalem to advertise as tourist attractions. At that time an Iceland volcano erupted, grounding aircraft. Making business and tourist air travel accross Europe and the UK impossible. The cost of this was staggering. More recently a number of Scotland’s city councils voted to support the anti-Israeli BDS movement. Imediately another volcano blew it’s top grounding aircraft accross Scotland. How severe can these things get? Well the Japanese earthquake/tsunami came less than a year after they entered the anti-Israel frey with two speeches condemning them. Those nuclea reactors are spewing out 50 times the amount of poison than that of Chernobyl. It’s estimated to have spread over the entire northern hemesphere, and it dosen’t look like stopping any time soon. So if God is going to save his children, it’s gotta be soon. Amen. Come Lord Jesus.

86. Don, I have to disagree with you about Obama cursing and oppressing Israel. He may have back tracked a little for American consumption, but he later flew over here and rallied European support for his plan to sell out Israel to Arab demands for boarders that would be indefensible. It appears to me that his strategy is to achieve through Europe something Americans won’t give him permission to do nationally.
    And how does this effect American or European citizens? I think there are Biblical instances where the people have received punishment for the actions of their leader.
    Why should we think the same won’t happen to our people?
    I don’t think our countries are having a Job experience. I think Satan knows his lawful rights under Genesis 12:3 and he is making use of those rights.

87. Jim,

    Nations have been rising and falling since Jesus announced the acceptable year of the Lord. The Age of Grace is a age when all can accept God’s gift of His Son and receive eternal salvation it does not change how God deals with nations. God did not change. I would even say that the United States has been a rod of God’s judgement on other nations in modern times and the US itself was chastised in wars. Of course God can can also use nature to chastise nations and we might be seeing some of that in a macro sense because in recent times it seems the hedge God put around this nation for awhile is being taken away. That should be expected when a nation rejects God and natural moral law and embraces evil. In the latest tornadoes and floods it is the micro judgement on certain areas and cities that I disagree with. In the macro sense it could be a judgment on the nation and in the micro a test of faith for Christians in these areas.

88. Phil,

    Nasty things happen in this world each and every week so anyone looking for something to apply after something negative toward Israel will always find something. It does not take a degree in statistics to see the flaw in the thinking in hind sight selection. And your over “staggering” example is not only one of those hindsight selections it is an exaggeration. Most of the air-travel stoppages caused by that volcano was due to overreaction and human error anyway and not the volcano dust.

    Many of these same people that push this unscientific hype still believe that there are hidden Bible codes that also uses hindsight prophecy even after the codes have been disproved. Even if God is judging nations by how they treat modern unbelieving Israel, He would not be doing it in such a tit-for-tat manor like is expressed in those books you read. He did not even do that in Old Testament days when Israel was under God’s blessing. Some people are using what they think is some oppression of Israel as their own new Bible code, it sells on the Christian Zionist talk circuits but don’t believe everything you read.

    You are also exaggerating the danger of what those nuclear reactors will do to people in the Northern Hemisphere, let’s stick with the facts. If the reactors kept radiating for years at the present rate, few if any outside of the immediate area will die or even notice the difference. The same crop of people always looking for the “fall of Babylon” were predicting the end of the U.S. after the gulf oil spill.

    I would like to see more critical thinking by Christians. When you only read one side of an argument and don’t think things through logically, you’re going to fall for any new pitch by anyone that can spin a yarn. I have put two links into this comment section already to my article that explains my position on Israel further. I hope you will give as much thought to what I wrote as you give to the authors of those books.

89. Phil,

    It took evil thinking people to elect Obama. I do not disagree that America is heading for a fall but it has more to do with our own sins than Obama’s position on Israel. Obama could do everything Israel wants but unless the American people turn from their evil it is all downhill. To blame Obama’s position on Israel for the fall of America is a little like blaming one of the last cards for the fall of a house of cards when the wind blew it over.

    Genesis 12:3 was give to Abram long before Israel. In one sense I agree, Satan is God’s enforcer of the curse. However, the message was to all the children of Abram which were all the children of the promise and that includes Christians in America. So is God cursing his Children in America to bless the unbelievers that occupy Israel today?? We need to realize that not all Israel is true Israel.

    I read a good article yesterday that illuminates this. The article said that there are Plop Jews, Reformed Jews, Conservative Jews and Orthodox Jews. The Plop Jews plopped out of Jewish mother but they totally reject the Jewish religion and even their Jewish identity; they are atheists and they always are Liberals; they hate Zionism because they think this religion puts them in danger. The Reformed Jews keep their Jewish identify but they are called Reformed Jews for a reason they are reformed because they have rejected the true Jewish faith. Their synagogues are basically social clubs. They also do not believe in any literal Jewish God as he is expressed in Judaism, they would think that all religions worship God if they believe in God at all. They also are Liberals and they just use the synagogues for social reasons. The first two groups will always vote Liberal because they reject the conservative values taught in Judaism. The Conservatives Jews keep the religion and the Orthodox live the religion and they always vote Conservative. Now consider this, the Conservative and the Orthodox Jews make up less than 1/3 of what is today called Judaism. Any wonder why over two-thirds of the Jews in this country vote for Liberals like Obama and company even though they know they are against Israel and any wonder why 2/3rds of Judaism in the land are killed during the tribulation?

90. Yes I have read your links. There are a couple of facts they miss. One is that there are currently around 30,000 Messianic Jews = Christians living in Israel. Now if God would have spared Sodom and Gomorrah for the sake of 10, I think 30,000 needs to be taken into consideration when we are talking about Gen 12:3. And there is sound Biblical precedent for tit for tat. Esther 7:10 is one example.
    As for the statement about Israel not allowing the gospel preached. Jews For Jesus and CFI are just two of many Christian evangelical groups that preach the gospel on the streets there.
    Judgement and destruction of nations that have oppressed Israel are a fact of God’s word, and of life. He may use their Jew hatred to bring about his plans for Israel, but woe to those who offer their services!
    I agree that the way nations treat each other matters to God, no matter which nation it is. But it is clear from the Bible and from history that Israel is something extra special. My own country had the largest empire in history until it gave part of Israel’s land to the Hashemites. Britania’s ship has been sinking ever since.
    Regarding volcano dust. You may be right about human over reaction, but that wouldn’t be the first time God has confused the enemies of Israel.
    The current estimated worldwide death toll due to Chernobyl is over a million. That was just one reactor. Japan is dwarfing Chernobyl’s output of radioactive particles. Them’s the facts!
    I don’t read bible codes!

91. Phil ,
    I think you give Obama and others too much credit for being able to curse Israel. God alone
    decides what actions against Israel he will allow. Recently at the G-8 meetings Canada came
    out strong in support of Israel. I believe there is still strong support for Israel among
    many people in America and God will honor that. Rest assured God will fulfill his purposes
    for Israel and I think we will all be surprised how his does it. It is simply not possible to
    predict every detail of God’s plan for Israel. Natural disasters may be judgments on nations
    and individuals, but we should never assume we know more than scripture tells us. Jonah was sent to Ninevah for a reason , I believe God desires repentance much more than he delights in
    judgment. Pray for revival in all nations . BLESSINGS to YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!

92. Phil,

    First of all what does Messianic Jews living in Israel have to do with anything? They will be Raptured before God even deals with Israel again for the final 7 years. God clearly says that two-thirds in the land will be killed and one third refined through the fire. If these Jews have to be refined apparently they have some spiritual shortcomings that God has to deal with.

    Esther 7:10 is hardly an example of a tit-for-tat judgement of nations about there stance toward the Jew. What happened is that Haman (the second in command) wanted to kill all Jews in the Kingdom. The Jewish Queen Esther in that kingdom interceded with the King of that kingdom and the man and people that wanted to kill the Jews were themselves killed. The Israelis that Haman wanted to kill were within a world kingdom of many providence’s where Israel was scattered. Even though Haman hated the Jews and talked the King into a edict to kill the Jews. God did not bring judgment on that Gentile kingdom at that time instead He used Esther to intercede.

    I did not say that those that want to exterminate the Jews will not pay a price. But an example of tit-for-tat judgment on a nation? That hardly is any example. It took years to get Hitler, is tit-for-tat only effective after 6 million are dead? The Catholic Church exterminated many Jews and they are still standing. I guess tit-for-tat judgment is selective except when it applies to the United States.

    It is against the law to proselytize in Israel and you should know that. The fact that some still do it is not the issue. The state forbids it and most Christian Zionist organizations will not be welcomed in Israel if they proselytize. 30,000 Messianic Jews among seven million is about 3 percent and most of those became Christians before they even moved to Israel so there is not any great evangelicalization of Jews taking place by Christian zionists.

    Again, I never said that God does not judge nations that fight against Israel but the United States is not fighting against Israel we are still their greatest friend in the world so we should be the last nation on earth to be judged over Israel. Anyway, the point was that God does not judge nations in a tit-for-tat fashion. You seem to gloss over the fact that God kicked the Jews out of the Land on more than one occasion and kings like Nebuchadnezzar were actually performing God’s will in removing them from the land. Did he receive a tit-for-tat judgment or any judgement for ending the Jewish kingdoms?

    God gets angry when the nations go beyond the punishment that God intended for Israel and that is what also happens in the time of Jacob’s trouble at the end of the age.

    I never said Israel is not something special to God. They are his chosen nation on earth. They are to be a nation of priests to God and the world but with this blessing come the curse if they disobey. They must be a Holy nation but that only becomes an acual reality when they accept their Messiah.

    I also do not doubt that the fall of the British Empire is that they lost there Christian roots and along with that they also lost the love of the nation that made Christianity possible. Nonetheless, I do not think you can go back in history and try to find specific natural storms that was related to how the British dealt with the Jews that day. Even if you can fabricate something like that, like these authors are now doing in America, it would just be a subjective hindsight fabrication just like their books. Like I said before, my problem is not that God does not deal with nations that oppose His will, He certainly does, my problem is with those that look at the latest weather events or an earthquake and then try to always find some reason for it in Israel. Frankly, these people are not well balanced.

    You also seem to think that Israel is now in God’s will just because there are Jews in the land. There were Jews in the land before the birth of Israel. Israel once again is going to go through a great chastisement called Jacob’s trouble. Extreme zionists almost always wants to overlook that fact, but all the prophets talk about this time.

    Restoration will not come before the chastisement of Israel during the great tribulation. Remember also that Israel signs the covenant with the Antichrist. Do you think that will be in God’s will? That will be their downfall when 3 1/2 years later he demands to be worshiped as God and true Jews (not the ploppers or the Reformed) listen to God and flee to the mountains of Jordan.

    The tiny Israel we see today was created by the satanically controlled UN and frankly I think Satan’s intention is to get all Jews in one location so that he can kill them all.It’s only the man that they cut off so that the nation could be saved that will come back to save Israel. It is not that Israel will be worthy of such grace.

    That million death figure for Chernobyl figure is the number of additional deaths that may have died of cancer over 25 years. Chernobyl also caused fallout in densely populated areas of the Ukraine and Europe this is hardly the same situation in Japan since the radiation is mostly over water it certainly is not going to be any major source of death outside of Japan. We get radiation from space everyday and the next time you take a plane trip or get an Xray I will venture to say you will get much more radiation than you ever will from the Japanese reactors. You might think you have the facts but the facts are spun to make them say something they do not.

    I never said that you read Bible codes. I said some that claim these tit-for-tat hindsight theories do.

93. The arguments you make in your first two paragraphs are those that are being increasingly embraced by the church today. You are at the neutral end but they range from Israel not being all that important, to it being evil and occupying land it has no right to because it is cursed of God and the church is the new Israel.
    The Bible does not support any of that. We are told to pray for the peace of Jerusalem. The apostle Paul wrote a lot about how we should act toward Israel and none of it was either neutral or negative. When was the last time churches in our countries sent a gift to help the church in Israel? When was the last time they wrote to their countries leaders demanding they obey God’s will by blessing and supporting Israel?
    Not doing these things is to disobey clear instructions and examples from the Bible. And it may be the reason why God allowed Satan to blast those towns with tornadoes. I can’t say that is the reason, but there must be a reason. Right?
    If Job doesn’t fit the bill. And I don’t think it does because Job had that happen for our instruction, so why would those Christian towns need further instruction?
    We have to consider other reasons. The connection between Obama’s actions and the predominant attitude toward Israel in those towns needs to be looked at. If they are all red hot for Israel. I will be out of ideas.

94. Phil ,
    I took the time to read the book of Job again. There is no doubt Satan caused the persecution
    of Job , but he had to get permission to do anything. God gives Job a lecture at the end and
    takes Job’s friends to task for assuming they have right to pass judgment on Job. God also never explains why he allowed anything , He just declares , I AM in charge here, that’s my
    common sense translation of the events in Job. I totally agree with you that God will deal with
    those who try to destroy Israel and the church has in no way replaced Israel. Not every natural disaster should be assumed to be a judment that is somehow related to Israel.
    It is clear that satan’s purpose is to totally destroy Israel because if he could do that he could prevent them (Israel) from recognizing HIM whom they pierced and rejected the first time. I believe satan thinks he can desroy Israel with Islam , when that agenda fails , he will try through Rome , an apostate false church , and anti- christ. Judgment comes every day
    for someone in some manner, people die daily. We are promised eternal life in Christ , not earthly life without any difficulty. I support Israel as much as anyone , but I cannot believe Obama really matters that much , he is only that important is his own mind.

95. Phil,

    The arguments I made are quite sensible and you need to quit reading lies into things I said.

    I never said anything you claim. I never said “that Israel was not important or evil or occupying a land it has no right to because it is cursed of God and the Church is the New Israel”.

    I speak against such nonsense and my first two paragraphs say nothing of the sort. As a Christian Zionist myself that supports Israel I find your accusations loony. However, I am not under the illusion that Israel is now in the will of God just because some Jews have returned back to the land. The dry bones may be coming together in Israel but the spirit their is still antichrist.

    My point is that we should be trying to evangelize them instead of giving they false hope by getting them back to the land so they can be deceived by the Antichrist without ever hearing the gospel by Christians.

    We who teach Bible prophecy know what their immediate future is and what is coming to them is not pretty and it is a deception to pretend otherwise. If you really loved Israel like Paul you would be trying to save as many of his countrymen as you can because the time is short. That is not being negative toward Jews.

    I will say it again, two thirds in the land will be cut off probably before every hearing about Jesus, do you deny Zec 13 8-9? So knowing what this and other scriptures say about the time of Jacob’s trouble what should a Christian be doing? They should be doing all they can to evangelizing them! It is amazing the selective prophecy that some Christians Zionists and also Jewish Zionists have. One of the reasons Hagee and his type are so popular in Israel is they only teach selective Bible prophecy. There is no fire in their belly for Jews to come to Christ for salvation at all before the age of grace ends.

    My position has always been to support Israel but Christians are not supporting Israel by giving her a false hope that God is going to deliver them and defeat all their enemies for them before the great tribulation.

    What church in Israel should we be sending gifts to and why do they need our money? As for sending letters to our leaders. How in the world did the Prime Minister of Israel get 29 standing ovations when speaking to our Congress if the American people were not standing behind Israel and demanding that our representatives stand behind Israel?

    So now you’re arguing that God sent the Tornadoes because we are not doing enough to help Israel. Give me a break, who is doing more to help Israel than the people of the United States?

    You said “Job had that happen for our instruction and then say why would those Christians towns need further instruction?” Who says it only happened for our instruction? This obviously was a demonstration to Satan and the Angels and it was recorded so that we would know that we can’t figure out God’s ways and sometimes we just need to walk through the hard times in faith. It sure was a test of Job’s faith and I am sure it is a test of faith of many Christian who cannot understand why God allowed the tornadoes to hit their towns. Reading about Job does not produce faith. It is an example of how to respond when you are in a storm of life and you can’t see any reason why God is allowing it since you are sure that you are trying to live in his will.

    You say you we have to consider other reasons but you continual go back to the tired tit-for-tat Israel argument. You’re even suggesting that Christian towns that are already supporting Israel much more than liberal towns are not being red hot enough for Israel and that is why God hit these towns with a grid iron. Frankly your arguments are rather silly.

    Everything with you is about the relationship between Israel and the United States and that is the problem with extreme Christian Zionism. Everything happening in the world is not about Israel and the United States. Some things are just about Israel and some things are just about the United States and some things are just because we live in a fallen world and some things we will never understand this side of eternity.

    So where are the blessings for the 29 standing ovations and the billions of dollars we have been sending Israel for decades? Or do we just get curses from God because we are not red hot enough for a country that is not even red hot about what their own scriptures say about Israel?

96. Don ,
    You most recent post is totally RIGHT ON target. Thanks for this kind of honesty.

97. I never read anything into what you said. least of all lies. I said you are at the neutral end!

    “Bible prophecy teachers seem to convey that Israel today is in the will of God. Therefore they suggest we better not do anything that could be conveyed as touching the apple of God’s eye. Some even suggest that if we do not bless this largely atheist nation that God will judge our nation”.

    YOUR WORDS BRO!

    Coming from someone who grieves over the equality in sin of his own nation with that of Israel. JUST AS I DO OVER MINE!
    But you are promoting a neutral attitude toward Israel with those words.

    Don.
    Luther was a man of God who steered the world back to salvation through grace. But he held onto a fermenting poison that eventually produced the holocaust. We can all be right and wrong at the same time. God help us!

    What is the will of God?
    It is clear that he wants none to perish. But he WILL judge the nations.

    How will he judge those nations?
    By destroying them when they come against Israel.

    Is that only after Israel finally accepts Jesus as Messiah?
    Hmm, Well, we may have Psalm 83 first, and then Ezekiel: 38-39, and Zechariah:14 seems to fit in just at the last minute.

    God is gracious. He is appealing to the nations by slaps; before he clenches his fist!

    Jacob’s trouble is preceded by what we are seeing today. I wish my saying this would bring about a turn around, but it won’t.

98. Phil,

    I thought you were talking about my last comment but now I see you were talking about my link article. Nevertheless, you said

    “You are at the neutral end but they range from Israel not being all that important, to it being evil and occupying land it has no right to because it is cursed of God and the church is the new Israel.”

    I supposed you mean “they” includes me. None of the stuff you mentioned after the word “they” applies to what I believe or said in my article other than Israel is still cursed for rejecting their Messiah. Heck, that is the only reason this is all playing out. Had they accepted their Messiah there would never had been any persecution of the Jews.

    As for my statement

    “Bible prophecy teachers seem to convey that Israel today is in the will of God. Therefore they suggest we better not do anything that could be conveyed as touching the apple of God’s eye. Some even suggest that if we do not bless this largely atheist nation that God will judge our nation”.

    What is not true about that statement? Tell me that is not exactly what you believe?? I am not promoting neutrally toward Israel in that statement, what I am saying is that you extreme Christian Zionists are wrong about these judgements and the rest of the paragraph of mine that you did not quote, explains that America is being judged for her own sins not for these tit-for-tat judgements that you people claim.

    I am not promoting a neutral attitude for Israel I am telling it like it is. Israel is a largely atheist nation today and it needs evangelizing more than it needs support like it is already in the center of God’s will and zionists playing down the truth like no further chastisement is coming to Israel. Jacob’s trouble is coming because Israel has still not accepted their Messiah.

    Like I said in the article Jesus cursed the state of Israel and that is represented by the cursing of the Fig Tree. I do not see where Jesus changed His mind just because a State was created by a UN edict. The facts are that if the people their do not repent and accept the true Messiah given to them they will accept the man of sin and they would be exterminated from the face of the earth, had not Jesus had mercy on them, and come in the name of His Father to save a remnant to establish the promised kingdom.

    Many of Luther’s views are not my views, so I do not know why you are bringing up Luther here? I do not believe anyone should be forced to convert to Christianity. I do not even think it is possible.

    I know that God will judge the nations for how they treat the people called by His name. However, what you do not seem to realize is that all the world nations come against Israel only after the two Jewish witnesses give the world the unvarnished truth for 1260 days, and the world rejoices when the Antichrist kills them and then the Antichrist leads the world to war against the coming Messiah to Israel, that I am quite sure that the two prophets were proclaiming. I have not heard the two prophets yet, so obviously we are not there yet.

    The scripture is clear when the Jews accept the Messiah, and it is not in Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39. They accept Him when he comes and they morn for what they they did to Him in

    “Zec 12:9 and it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
    10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.”

    He gives unmerited grace to a remnant just like He did for the Gentles and they say at that time, “blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord.”
    This is when Jesus comes to save them. There certainly is divine intervention in the wars of Psalm 83 and Ezekiel 38-39 but it is for God’s own name sake. God is saying that this is His land to the nations. It is not the Arabs land or Gog’s to take a spoil.

    And none of what I said, even if it were not the way it will turns out, makes your hindsight tit-for-tat teaching true. Every major disaster in America is not related to our relationship with Israel, it is more related to America’s relationship with God. Tit-for-tat judgment is just a contrived fantasy by people who have little understanding.

99. “Bible prophecy teachers seem to convey that Israel today is in the will of God. Therefore they suggest we better not do anything that could be conveyed as touching the apple of God’s eye. Some even suggest that if we do not bless this largely atheist nation that God will judge our nation”.

    That statement, in the context it was made, clearly gives the impression that it’s maker is scornful of the opinion it describes. And places it’s maker at the neutral end of the church’s spectrum of opinion concerning Israel. As it was you who posted it, I assumed it to be an opinion you espouse.

    The ‘will of God’ can mean different things. I believe it is the will of God that Israel exists today in part of the promised land. I do not believe it is there solely as a result of the will of the UN. I believe that organisation was used by God to bring about his will.

    My reason for bringing up Luther was because the point of this debate is to consider the question – why did those tornadoes happen?
    Although he was a man of God. Luther had virulent anti-Semitic views. I was trying to suggest the same views may exist in the towns effected. So that could be a possible answer.

    Quickly going back to my earlier point about Esther 7:10. Haman being strung up on the gallows he had made for Mordacai sounds pretty tit for tat to me. Maybe that’s just my warped sense of humor!

    In your last paragraph you say “every major disaster in America is not related to our relationship with Israel”. I never suggested it was. In fact, if you go back to my original post you will see I am looking at the global view to form my opinion, not just America. And from a global perspective I can see evidence that leads me to believe there is that correlation.
    Maybe that is just the contrived fantasy of someone with little understanding. But just maybe you’re not noticing the elephant in your parlour!

100. I am very pro Israel and I believe true Jews have a right to return to the land but I also believe it is God that determines that right, and it is God that will determine their fate in His land. Zionists don’t determine God’s agenda for Israel in the Land even though they try very hard to help Him out. So obviously I am a bit scornful of those who use Israel for their own agenda rather than try to evangelize a people where the majority are destined for deception and death in the near future unless they accept their true Messiah. That is why I wrote that article.

     I do not know if this return is of God or is really a ploy of Satan through the UN to kill the Jews. I do know it will turn out the way God said it will turn out in the Bible and I do know that most of the Jews have not yet chosen to return to Israel. I also believe the Bible teaches that the greater return of the Jews is still in the future. (The orchestration of the Jewish exodus from the nations may be one of the roles of the two prophets and it could be the reason why they will have the power to bring judgment on the nations as often as they wish. In other words, a greater reenactment by Moses of “let my people go”.)

     I think it certainly is in the permissive will of God for the Jews to be in His land right now or they would not be there. Nevertheless, their welfare in the Land has always been conditional on them keeping His covenants. Because as a nation they still will not, they will certainly see more trouble ahead.

     I really do not know how you can believe that largely evangelical Christian towns could be against Israel. Joplin is mostly Assembly of God, Baptists and Word-of-Faith, you ought to know their position is quite pro Israel. I can make a better case for God judging Joplin for having too many of the “speak to the wind” crowd than any anti-Semitic views. Not that I believe that WOF is why they were hit by this tornado.

     I am addressing the tit-for-tat judgment arguments you brought up not what you believe applies. Trust me, I really cannot read your mind. The people writing the books that you get this stuff from believe every major natural disaster in the US is now related to Israel and they are always looking for the Israel connection in hindsight.

     I say these people have little understanding because everything is about their Zionism. Their reasoning for why things happen in the world today is faulty and their Christian focus is unbalanced. They are Christians but they have made an unbelieving Israel their Idol and some will not even carry out the great commission to these people. If their is an elephant in my parlor like you imply, even with their best arguments they are not convincing me or many others that there is any elephant in the room. The ones seeing this elephant are pretty much the same ones that usually buy tickets from the barkers of the sideshows on “Christian” TV networks and talk circuits. In these side shows they are always seeing amazing things that those without a ticket do not see.

     I think we have said enough about this subject in the comments on this post. Most of the arguments have been presented, the correlation poofs offered for the tit-for-tat judgments are not scientific in my opinion, nor do I believe this position can be proved from the scriptures. I say what Obama did has nothing to do with the Tornadoes and you say they are a logical explanation for them. I do not think that is logical at all, but people can and will decide for themselves.

101. Don and Others,

     I’ve checked back on where this disscusion is going and I’m thinking “wow, I wish more people could read these because it is so enlightening about several urgent issues of our day!”

     Israel is still beloved by our great God, but they are still human, and like everyone else, they sin, AND they are not (yet) back into a right relationship with Him.

     I very much believe the ‘blessing/curse’ verse, but not in a direct ‘tit-for-tat’ way, rather in the more general sense that the book of Proverbs are true.

102. Just to be clear Brett, that is my position as well. Trying to align every storm in the US with Israel is rather bazaar but that is just what is now happening on the website that wrote one of these tit-for-tat books.

103. I’m a bit confused with your article. However, I will say this, The Joplin tornado, the Tuscaloosa tornado had NOTHING to do with God. It was about weather. There are times when the weather turns severe. That is exactly what happened. We had severe weather and terribly lives were lost. It happens every year, albeit, this year was worse than ever. Our weather will likely continue to be severe due climate change. I live in Texas and we are still enduring the worst drought on record. Did God cause it? No. It’s just a part of climatology.

104. Brett Breckenridge,

     So you really think you can speak for God? God ultimately controls the weather on earth but weather patterns are part of that control. If people are going to live in an area where strong storms generate because of the weather patterns that God has predetermined for the earth in this point in time, they may be impacted by the storms. To say God has NOTHING to do with it because it is about weather. Is to deny that God has ultimate control over the atmospheric forces that He created on earth or the life or death of his creatures. Things are not as random as you seem to think in God’s creation. God watches over all souls that he created. God foreknew everything that would happen on earth before he even created the earth. These storms did not take God by surprise, yet He chose to allow them to take place for his own purposes.

105. I see this was written two years ago but in light of the recent tornadoes in Tx. and Ok. I think the question is still valid, “Are these God’s judgments or a test of faith?”
     Except for a time in Florida and Nevada I have lived somewhere in Tornado Ally all my life.
     I don’t believe they are God’s judgments and certainly have nothing to do with Israel as there have been tornados in this area before 1948.
     Are they a test of faith? I think only if the survivors recognized them as a test of faith.
     I am a tornado survivor. Dec. 5, 1975, Tulsa, Ok. Although we thanked the Lord for our survival it never occurred to us that it was a judgment or a test.
     I wasn’t afraid of tornados before then. Now they terrify me because I saw what they can do first hand and that’s even with my belief that God is in control.
     Just a few thoughts from someone who has been there. [There aren’t a lot of things I’m afraid of.]

106. Politicians and preachers use natural disasters to control people; make them more fearful.

     Nothing yet has been specific enough to be a “judgement.” though the sun being so quiet and the number of earthquakes around the world should give everyone pause…hm, an earthquake here which raced straight for the heart of Washington. the Washington monument was badly damaged.( didn;t change anything.oh yes, the National Cathedral too. they perform gay weddings, or so I am told. hm) I can assure you people in Mineral and Culpeper suffered regardless of what they believed..and no congressman or Senator suffered much over the damage.

     But lest we forget..
     1. Adam and Eve sinned and brought sin into the world. this included disease, harmful weather patterns…all of it.Original sin brought in much of what we suffer now.The Flood, falling waters and those from inside the earth, further changed climate and weather.
     2. Satan is the god of this world. he controls the seats of power,he still accuses us at God;s throne. I am sure, as Don pointed out, he can torment people with horrible weather events.But only with God;s permission!
     3. Many of us live where there can be tornadoes or hurricanes or heavy snows or fires…yet our building codes let us get away with not preparing adequately.If something DOES go wrong we expect insurance and government loans to fix it Ask Florida and Louisiana about insurance payouts…and you only get government help if you are on the right “team”.Mineral, the epicenter of the above mentioned earthquake, is very conservative and the Obama administration denied them the government help. a year later they still didn;t have a high school. They were meeting in an old box store or something like that.We have fixed or torn down affected buildings here in Culpeper.not sure why it was easier to accomplish here. It is a very similar community and there are not less Christians in Mineral, i am sure.
     4.The evil lies in how we respond to horrible situations. Are you praising God for every life saved? helping your neighbors? or holed up somewhere, afraid?( after 2 doses of it, you bet I am scared of heavy snow. no ability to get out no power ….though we do have a fireplace and a grill we can cook on) Trouble comes to all…we need to have our eyes open and be as careful as we can be to prepare.and hands raised in praise!

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